370Z Sport Package vs Mazdaspeed 3 GT vs S2000 vs Cayman S vs Mazda Rx-8

JonBoy

Out of curiosity, what is the definition of a sports car?

And you can buy an Evo all day long for under $30K. A GSR can be had for under $28K, before taxes. You can also buy an STi for under $30K, in base trim. The MSRP is over $30K but the purchase price is under $30K.

theDreamer

The term sports car has been defined as "an open, low-built, fast motor car." The term describes a class of automobile with two seats, two doors, precise handling, brisk acceleration, and sharp braking — trading practical considerations such as passenger space, comfort, and cargo capacity — for driving enjoyment.

You can buy them if you haggle yes, but one person v. another might get different prices. That is why I went by MSRP, it is a fair comparison on what they should go for, not what you could pay for. Saying I can buy X car for a certain price is the same argument that any car with so many mods can be another car stock, you cannot compare (to many variables). That is why we have stock v. stock comparisons and the best way to judge something.

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JonBoy

So a Z-coupe is not a sports car since it's not open?

And I hardly think comparing MSRP is fair when anyone with a brain can get them for a much lower price. The Z can be had (base model) for $28K, give or take, and the Evo X can also be had for that price. That means they are absolutely price-competitive. MSRP, especially in this economy, is pretty much disregarded by most buyers.

Stock-vs-stock is a fair comparison for performance but not for price. Common selling price, not asking, is how price should be compared.

theDreamer

The word open can be something that means different things.
But MSRP is the only basis we have to go on (such as stock performance), I got my Z for invoice but others are paying 500-1,000 over invoice. Yes it can be had but it does not mean that is how you compare an item. I was offered a Evo MR at invoice plus rebate but someone else may have only gotten MSRP plus rebate.

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JonBoy

What other meaning for "open" can you think of, if not "convertible"? "Lots of room"? "Without a windshield"?

I saw someone earlier (might have been you) say that the Z and Cayman were the only sports cars of the bunch so was wondering how they came to that conclusion.

Again, I agree on comparing stock performance but comparing MSRP doesn't make any sense to me if it doesn't remotely reflect the actual purchase price of the vehicle. Stock power/tuning comparisons are valid because it's the way the car comes from the factory.

Pricing is not set in stone the way performance is - it's negotiable and is therefore comparable on a "probable" level vs a "standard" level. Power/performance is not negotiable from the factory and so it is valid to limit to an absolute value (stock) for comparison purposes.

theDreamer

MSRP is the only standard we have though, I guess we could compare invoice price since that information is available and more in line with current market prices. Though the moment the market rebounds we might see Nissan Zs back at MSRP price only.

No, that was not me.
My definition I provided was a single definition, if you want to tear it apart go ahead, but either way the MS3 as I said is not a sports car.

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JonBoy

I guess we'll agree to disagree, then. A car that spanks some "real" sports cars is a sports car in my book, regardless of the body shape or number of doors. Same goes for a Cobalt SS. I wouldn't own them but I don't discount their right to be a "sports car" any more than I would a Miata, a 370Z, or a Porsche 911.

theDreamer

See, a Cobalt SS or MS3 I would say is a sports compact. Good speed, performance, but they also want to keep some of that needed room for storage or price.
The cars at the end of your list are the sports car, they will take away space, price, storage so they can have extra power.

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joeyz10

:i agree:

Sand123

I would argue that the classic definition of a sports car is changing. It wasn't until 2002 when the WRX hit the US market that the concept of a light, fast, four-door sports sedan really became mainstream. The WRX was really the beginning of the sport compact market, and I would call it, and the cars that followed it - Evo, STi, Civic SI, Mini Cooper S, Mazdaspeed3, etc - sports cars. If your definition of a sports car means it has to be two doors, low slung, and have a big engine, then a Mustang with its live axle is a sports car. But a Mustang certainly doesn't poses the road prowess or fun to drive factor of any the cars mentioned above. And it is at a disadvantage to at least 3 of the above cars on a track. So if a "sports car" like the Mustang is heavier, less tossable, and slower than the "non-sports cars" then I think the definition needs updating.

molamann

He never mentioned anything about a big engine, more like a faster high revving engines found in a traditional sports car.

Pheonix

Some people even call Miata's sports cars, for the thrill of driving one...but its hardly comparable to say, a charged Solice, Sky or the S2000...but you get the point.

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Sand123

Okay, so we will use the term "high output" engine then. That would be comprehensive enough to include either a Mustang V-8 or a small displacement high revving S2000 engine.

But I still believe that you cannot qualify a sports car simply by extrinsic characteristics like body style, engine, and number of seats. A sports car is defined by what purpose it was built for, and how well it achieves that purpose. When the Army picks out a new APC it doesn't do that based on how it looks. It chooses one based on how well it can absorb a bomb blast, take an RPG hit, drive through uneven terrain, and manuever around tricky urban obstacles. In other words, the vehicle best suited for its purpose, regardless of outside appearances.

I believe a Miata is usually considered a roadster first, a sports car second.

JonBoy

A Miata is the essence of a sports car, to me. It's not that powerful but it is focused in its sporting intentions. Drop-top, sporty ride, minimal useful purpose as a vehicle, great gearbox, and very tossable. I consider the S2000 (for instance) to be an even better sports car, mainly due to the better stock suspension and higher power levels, but it's not really any more of a sports car.

A number of guys I know own them and track them. With intake/header/exhaust (165-170 whp) and coilovers, an NC Miata is as quick as most S2000s around the track (quicker through the corners, slower on the straights). The stock suspension is somewhat floaty when flogged hard and the car leans a LOT in stock form but a bit of suspension work and an aggressive alignment really works wonders through the corners.

theDreamer

The idea of a sports car has changed over the years and much harder to define with modern cars. Though must remember certain things:

~Muscle car - Mustang, Camaro, Challenger
~Sports compact - MS3, Cobalt SS, etc.
~Sports car - Z, Cayman, etc. (Note just naming a few)
~Sport roadster - Z, s2000, Miata

Each of these has power in some form and excels at something, each can be moved from its current group to another easily with your own definition.

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