10% Ethanol vs. Ethanol Free Gas

Stino · 11-24-2012, 11:37 AM

Please offer your opinion on this topic. I know there's been some Ethanol discussions on the forum, nevertheless, not specifically what I'm asking. So anyone with a very good understanding of Ethanol's characteristics and how it effects the car ability to perform at peak performance and overall internal functions long term, please chime in. Thanks in advance!

Okay ... taking into consideration PERFORMANCE and WHAT'S BETTER FOR OUR 370Z OVERALL. The latter being very important.

Deciding Facts below:

1. I have a local Exxon/Mobil Gas Station that offers 90 OCTANE ETHANOL FREE GAS AT A PREMIUM OF $4.05.
2. Compared to a local Sunoco Gas Station that offers 93 OCTANE WITH 10% ETHANOL FOR A PRICE OF $3.65.

My question: Is it better to run 90 Octane Ethanol free gas vs. 93 Octane w/ 10% Ethanol?

6MT · 11-24-2012, 11:39 AM

Here in Canada, we don't have a choice. All gasolines have at least 10% ethanol. Some have 15 to 20 percent.

Stino · 11-24-2012, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6MT

Here in Canada, we don't have a choice. All gasolines have at least 10% ethanol. Some have 15 to 20 percent.

If you had a choice, what would it be? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Regards,

Stino

6MT · 11-24-2012, 11:47 AM

I would like the ethanol in. Although I would like it only around 5%. Gas with ethanol works better up in these climes.

PapoZalsa · 11-24-2012, 12:43 PM

Rarely you will find a gas station that doesn't sell gas with 10% ethanol.

RoshDawg · 11-24-2012, 12:51 PM

As a petroleum engineer, I HATE ethanol. That being said, I'm having a tough time choosing between the two for you, but I would probably go with the 93.

redline727 · 11-24-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoshDawg

As a petroleum engineer, I HATE ethanol. That being said, I'm having a tough time choosing between the two for you, but I would probably go with the 93.

I too have an inquisitive mind and would like to learn a little more about the role ethanol plays in the fuel we put in our cars. Can you elaborate for us please

SouthArk370Z · 11-24-2012, 04:14 PM

I'm no Chemist or expert of any kind really, but I've been using ethanol "enhanced" gas since the 1970s (not all the time, mind ya) in various vehicles and my observations are:

For real old cars (before the Gas Crunch of the mid-'70s), ethanol could attack the gaskets in the carburetor, the fuel pump diaphragm, &c. Not all cars, but it wasn't all that rare. Seems that the older the car, the worse things got.

For cars between then and the introduction of ECUs (ECM in Z-talk) the engines seemed to "tolerate" fairly large amounts of ethanol. The better the electronics they had, the better job they could do, but not quite there.

For most modern cars, 10% is no problem. I've had to put 10% in my '09 and haven't noticed any ill effects.

HOWEVER
Ethanol has fewer BTU per gallon - ~114,000 for regular unleaded vs ~82,000 for E85 (couldn't find a value for E90, but you get the picture). You have to burn more fuel to get anywhere. I haven't noticed much of a difference in power with my butt dyno, but haven't really made any comparisons - I seldom use full power and when I do, I've always gotten enough to make me grin.
Ethanol and water love each other. Especially in higher concentrations, it can pick up water (and some of the crud it has with it) and carry it to the pump, filter, injectors, &c. For a newer car that hasn't had time to collect condensation, this is seldom a problem, since most gas has a little ethanol in it anyway and the water gets carried out in tiny amounts.

All that said, I try to get 93 octane sans the ethanol, but I don't get obsessive about it. If I get anything below 93, I try to keep my toenails out of the radiator until the next fillup. I had to buy 90 octane once - just got enough to baby it home and then filled it up with the good stuff. I try to avoid anything above 10%, just on general principles, but finding 0-10% hasn't been a problem so far.

Keep in mind that all of that is just my personal observations. Nothing scientific about it (except for the BTU/gal figures and I rounded them).

RoshDawg · 11-24-2012, 05:12 PM

@redline727, it seems SouthArk370Z knows more about the effect ethanol has in a car in a mechanical aspect than I do. My personal hatred for ethonal and it's supporters is that it takes MORE energy and resources to harvest ethonal than the amount of energy and resources ethanol can produce (and the harvesting of it uses coal electricity and a ton of fossil fuels, so don't think it's better for the environment). It's like cutting meth (I've been watching a lot of Breaking Bad) with a substance more expensive than meth, with the belief that it will save you some money (although it is a lot more political than that). Anyone who is ordering the manufacturing of ethanol is either dumb, an idealist, or holds a private agenda.
Hope that helps!

KERMIT · 11-24-2012, 05:23 PM

I would choose 93

It really depends if the 90 octane will cause any retard in the spark timing. If it does, then it's a no brainier to run the 93. Regardless. It's not worth much of a premium over e10 just in terms of energy content.

Stino · 11-24-2012, 07:35 PM

Thanks to everyone who responded to my question. I'll continue using the 93 octane. Thanks again!

Regards,

Stino

LMBmikeZ · 11-24-2012, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6MT

Here in Canada, we don't have a choice. All gasolines have at least 10% ethanol. Some have 15 to 20 percent.

Not the case over here in Ontario, we get 91 octane ethanol free from Shell.

That's all I have ever used in my 370z, my Z32 was tuned for 94 octane so that's all I used in it.

I also remember reading articles talking about ethanol fuel lowering gas mileage, very little amount but still less.

bvl · 11-25-2012, 07:07 AM

Go with the octane for the car. The reason we have 10% here in the US is the gov and the ridiculous corn subsidies the american public was duped into paying for all these years.

Its cost the citizens billions and we continue to slurp it up because we have to.

10% fuel sucks for anyone with a carb (many motorcycles, small equipment) as it does gum up the carbs when sitting. They didn't seem to mention that nor consider it when they moved to have us all use 10% did they?

I have *one* station within 100 miles here in eastern PA that sells ethanol free 87 and 100 race fuel..so at least now I can get some 87 for the motorcycle, lawnmower etc...

- b

MarkGideon · 11-25-2012, 08:09 AM

There is a station less than half a mile from my house that sells non-ethanol "marine" gas. Since it is only 87, none goes in the Z. However, it has been great for my lawn equipment, and before my old 65 Chevy pickup died, I used the non-ethanol in it too. If there was an option for "premium" grade non-ethanol, I would probably run it in the Z too.

Zat_Zuma · 11-25-2012, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6MT

Here in Canada, we don't have a choice. All gasolines have at least 10% ethanol. Some have 15 to 20 percent.

I see your spreading misinformation again.

Check your facts before spouting information that is not true

Shell 91 Octane has NO Ethanol in the premium blend and has no plans to change that in the near future. However a 94 Octane, ethanol blended premium fuel, may be in the future

It could be a answer to Petro-Can's Super 94. To date, I haven't found out much Ethanol is in PC's Super 94, but the search continues.

11-24-2012, 11:37 AM	#1 (permalink)
Stino Base Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Florida Posts: 159 Drives: 2010 370Z Sport Rep Power: 15	10% Ethanol vs. Ethanol Free Gas Please offer your opinion on this topic. I know there's been some Ethanol discussions on the forum, nevertheless, not specifically what I'm asking. So anyone with a very good understanding of Ethanol's characteristics and how it effects the car ability to perform at peak performance and overall internal functions long term, please chime in. Thanks in advance! Okay ... taking into consideration PERFORMANCE and WHAT'S BETTER FOR OUR 370Z OVERALL. The latter being very important. Deciding Facts below: 1. I have a local Exxon/Mobil Gas Station that offers 90 OCTANE ETHANOL FREE GAS AT A PREMIUM OF $4.05. 2. Compared to a local Sunoco Gas Station that offers 93 OCTANE WITH 10% ETHANOL FOR A PRICE OF $3.65. My question: Is it better to run 90 Octane Ethanol free gas vs. 93 Octane w/ 10% Ethanol? __________________ 10 370Z Sport\|Berk CBE & HFC\|NISMO R-TUNE CAI\|Z1 Oil & PS Coolers\|Mishimoto Radiator\|UpRev\|Nismo S-Tune\|SEIBON Spoiler\|Eibach Sways, Springs, Spacers\|SPC Camber\|RJM Clutch Pedal\|Enkei Wheels\|StopTech Rotors & Pads\|SS Brake/Clutch Lines\|Alpine W900BT, PDX5, Rear Camera, Boston SR60, S35 & 10" G3 Sub\|3M Ceramic Tint

11-24-2012, 11:39 AM	#2 (permalink)
6MT A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2009 Location: ITU Zone 2 Posts: 22,459 Drives: Reliant Robin Rep Power: 1791	Here in Canada, we don't have a choice. All gasolines have at least 10% ethanol. Some have 15 to 20 percent. __________________ Andrew 2009 370Z Sport/Touring 6MT sold 2013 Honda Civic Si coupe D/D

11-24-2012, 11:47 AM	#4 (permalink)
6MT A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2009 Location: ITU Zone 2 Posts: 22,459 Drives: Reliant Robin Rep Power: 1791	I would like the ethanol in. Although I would like it only around 5%. Gas with ethanol works better up in these climes. __________________ Andrew 2009 370Z Sport/Touring 6MT sold 2013 Honda Civic Si coupe D/D

11-24-2012, 12:43 PM	#5 (permalink)
PapoZalsa A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Not in Sunny Florida Posts: 6,358 Drives: 16 Nismo w/Tech Pack Rep Power: 4500	Rarely you will find a gas station that doesn't sell gas with 10% ethanol. __________________ 2009 370Z MB Base w/Sport Package 6MT Modshack's Custom Air Intakes /3M Clear Bra/ Illuminated Kick Plates / F. I CBE w/12" resonators / EVO-R Front Lip / Rear Hatch Wing / Tein S-Tech Springs /Ilegal Tint in the Rep. of VA/4x20mm Z1 Spacers/ Vinyl Roof/Liquid Carbon Designs

11-24-2012, 12:51 PM	#6 (permalink)
RoshDawg Track Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: NM / CA Posts: 981 Drives: '13 911 C2S Rep Power: 16	As a petroleum engineer, I HATE ethanol. That being said, I'm having a tough time choosing between the two for you, but I would probably go with the 93. DEpointfive0 likes this. __________________ \| EVO X MR \| '11 WRX STI \| 370Z SPRT \| 911 (991) C2S \|

11-24-2012, 04:14 PM	#8 (permalink)
SouthArk370Z Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: South Arkansas Posts: 8,435 Drives: 2014 Challenger Rep Power: 324198	I'm no Chemist or expert of any kind really, but I've been using ethanol "enhanced" gas since the 1970s (not all the time, mind ya) in various vehicles and my observations are: For real old cars (before the Gas Crunch of the mid-'70s), ethanol could attack the gaskets in the carburetor, the fuel pump diaphragm, &c. Not all cars, but it wasn't all that rare. Seems that the older the car, the worse things got. For cars between then and the introduction of ECUs (ECM in Z-talk) the engines seemed to "tolerate" fairly large amounts of ethanol. The better the electronics they had, the better job they could do, but not quite there. For most modern cars, 10% is no problem. I've had to put 10% in my '09 and haven't noticed any ill effects. HOWEVER Ethanol has fewer BTU per gallon - ~114,000 for regular unleaded vs ~82,000 for E85 (couldn't find a value for E90, but you get the picture). You have to burn more fuel to get anywhere. I haven't noticed much of a difference in power with my butt dyno, but haven't really made any comparisons - I seldom use full power and when I do, I've always gotten enough to make me grin. Ethanol and water love each other. Especially in higher concentrations, it can pick up water (and some of the crud it has with it) and carry it to the pump, filter, injectors, &c. For a newer car that hasn't had time to collect condensation, this is seldom a problem, since most gas has a little ethanol in it anyway and the water gets carried out in tiny amounts. All that said, I try to get 93 octane sans the ethanol, but I don't get obsessive about it. If I get anything below 93, I try to keep my toenails out of the radiator until the next fillup. I had to buy 90 octane once - just got enough to baby it home and then filled it up with the good stuff. I try to avoid anything above 10%, just on general principles, but finding 0-10% hasn't been a problem so far. Keep in mind that all of that is just my personal observations. Nothing scientific about it (except for the BTU/gal figures and I rounded them). DEpointfive0 likes this. __________________ Steering Lock Links - Search The370Z Bookmarklet - FSM @ NICOclub Mankind has progressed past the need for war but we haven't evolved that far. - NachoMahma

11-24-2012, 05:12 PM	#9 (permalink)
RoshDawg Track Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: NM / CA Posts: 981 Drives: '13 911 C2S Rep Power: 16	@redline727, it seems SouthArk370Z knows more about the effect ethanol has in a car in a mechanical aspect than I do. My personal hatred for ethonal and it's supporters is that it takes MORE energy and resources to harvest ethonal than the amount of energy and resources ethanol can produce (and the harvesting of it uses coal electricity and a ton of fossil fuels, so don't think it's better for the environment). It's like cutting meth (I've been watching a lot of Breaking Bad) with a substance more expensive than meth, with the belief that it will save you some money (although it is a lot more political than that). Anyone who is ordering the manufacturing of ethanol is either dumb, an idealist, or holds a private agenda. Hope that helps! PaulZ370 likes this. __________________ \| EVO X MR \| '11 WRX STI \| 370Z SPRT \| 911 (991) C2S \|

11-24-2012, 05:23 PM	#10 (permalink)
KERMIT Enthusiast Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Republic of Wadiya Posts: 301 Drives: Ms. Daisy Rep Power: 14	I would choose 93 It really depends if the 90 octane will cause any retard in the spark timing. If it does, then it's a no brainier to run the 93. Regardless. It's not worth much of a premium over e10 just in terms of energy content.

11-24-2012, 07:35 PM	#11 (permalink)
Stino Base Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Florida Posts: 159 Drives: 2010 370Z Sport Rep Power: 15	Thanks to everyone who responded to my question. I'll continue using the 93 octane. Thanks again! Regards, Stino __________________ 10 370Z Sport\|Berk CBE & HFC\|NISMO R-TUNE CAI\|Z1 Oil & PS Coolers\|Mishimoto Radiator\|UpRev\|Nismo S-Tune\|SEIBON Spoiler\|Eibach Sways, Springs, Spacers\|SPC Camber\|RJM Clutch Pedal\|Enkei Wheels\|StopTech Rotors & Pads\|SS Brake/Clutch Lines\|Alpine W900BT, PDX5, Rear Camera, Boston SR60, S35 & 10" G3 Sub\|3M Ceramic Tint

11-25-2012, 07:07 AM	#13 (permalink)
bvl Enthusiast Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: PA Posts: 362 Drives: MB Roadster (sold) Rep Power: 15	Go with the octane for the car. The reason we have 10% here in the US is the gov and the ridiculous corn subsidies the american public was duped into paying for all these years. Its cost the citizens billions and we continue to slurp it up because we have to. 10% fuel sucks for anyone with a carb (many motorcycles, small equipment) as it does gum up the carbs when sitting. They didn't seem to mention that nor consider it when they moved to have us all use 10% did they? I have one station within 100 miles here in eastern PA that sells ethanol free 87 and 100 race fuel..so at least now I can get some 87 for the motorcycle, lawnmower etc... - b

11-25-2012, 08:09 AM	#14 (permalink)
MarkGideon Base Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: USA, SC Posts: 213 Drives: 2012 370Z Base Rep Power: 14	There is a station less than half a mile from my house that sells non-ethanol "marine" gas. Since it is only 87, none goes in the Z. However, it has been great for my lawn equipment, and before my old 65 Chevy pickup died, I used the non-ethanol in it too. If there was an option for "premium" grade non-ethanol, I would probably run it in the Z too. __________________ 2012 370Z Base Gun Metallic--2015 Altima 2.5SV Gun Metallic--2020 Chevy Silverado RST--1965 Chevy C10 Stepside Shortbed

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