FI and Ethanol Blend?

DIGItonium · 05-21-2010, 03:07 PM

What sort of problems are FI owners going to face when forced to use fuel with at least 10% ethanol blend?

bullitt5897 · 05-21-2010, 08:11 PM

From my understanding only the lower grades use the ethanol blends. Most cars fuel systems do not meet the required standards to run ethanol based fluids for long periods of time due to the corrosive nature of ethanol. However, if they do force the higher octanes to run an ethanol blend I will make "pert" gas which in the racing industry is a mixture of high octane race fuel and pump gas.

DIGItonium · 05-23-2010, 12:51 AM

K thanks! My coworker has a Mazdaspeed6, and she complains about engine knocking. She's under the impression that all the gas stations here have 10% ethanol blend regardless of grade, and they don't even have to put a sticker to tell the customer. Last year I saw stickers all over the place about ethanol blend being required. That makes me a bit worried. I did some brief research, but got more confused. I wouldn't want to get a nicely tuned FI setup, and then blow the engine down the road due to craptastic fuel blend.

LiquidZ · 05-23-2010, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIGItonium

K thanks! My coworker has a Mazdaspeed6, and she complains about engine knocking. She's under the impression that all the gas stations here have 10% ethanol blend regardless of grade, and they don't even have to put a sticker to tell the customer. Last year I saw stickers all over the place about ethanol blend being required. That makes me a bit worried. I did some brief research, but got more confused. I wouldn't want to get a nicely tuned FI setup, and then blow the engine down the road due to craptastic fuel blend.

Ethanol has a higher octane rating than pump gas. If anything, ethanol would only benefit FI vehicles. Maybe she only had a tank of bad gas?

Spec Jay · 05-23-2010, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidZ

Ethanol has a higher octane rating than pump gas. If anything, ethanol would only benefit FI vehicles. Maybe she only had a tank of bad gas?

this. anyone heard about ethanol the poor mans race gas?

DIGItonium · 05-23-2010, 11:02 AM

I remember reading that Ethanol would add a few points to the octane rating despite lower energy output and MPG. Thanks for the peace of mind

CBRich · 06-07-2010, 01:42 PM

How the car runs with the ethanol is definitely not the issue as much as the corrosive properties are.

bullitt5897 · 06-07-2010, 02:25 PM

Ethenol has not lived up to the expectations and the promises that were given about the nature of the product. For instance my dad had a ethenol rated avalanche and that truck made sh!t for power and torque. The truck also made nominal fuel mileage gains and overall was a pain in the butt!!! Now we traded in that avalanche for one that was the regular engine and found that it made more than 35+hp than the last and was only about 1-2 real mpg less than the ethenol on a bad day. Ethenol to me was a ploy by lobbyist toake money for a certain group of grain farmers and investors. Ethenol = over hyped fuel additive like so many other products.

Trust me she probably got bad gas! I had that happened in my s2000 from quicktrip when they switched to their winter seasonal blend which so happened to have WATER in the fuel!!!! I thought I blew a headgasket!!!! Nothing like driving sown the road and then wam no throttle response and white smoke coming out of the exhaust! I was freaked as I just put in my emanage ultimate with a new aggressive race tune... I literally shat bricks!

bullitt5897 · 06-07-2010, 02:28 PM

Note to add I ran the car in a parking lot for 5 min and it was getting back to normal. I drove it home emptied the gas from the tank and loaded shell gas and te car was back to normal on the new tune.

Sharif@Forged · 06-07-2010, 05:49 PM

E85 is widely used by performance tuners as a cheaper alternative to race fuel. With it's 105 octane rating, and availability at many gas stations across the country, it is becoming increasingly popular in performance circles.

As a daily driver fuel, I agree it hasn't lived up the hype. But as a race fuel alternative, it's pretty baddass.

With respect to corrosive properties, modern fuel systems take to alcohol based fuels very well. We've done many E85 conversions, without seeing degradation of rubber o-rings, seals...etc. E85 is becoming a viable alternative to expensive racing fuels.

The drawback, is you need to upgrade your fuel system by at least 30% flow (larger injectors and bigger fuel pump systems) in order to offset the reduced energy contained in a gram of E85 vs. a gram of premium petrol.

Jordo! · 06-07-2010, 06:03 PM

If you guys are talking about the 10% ethanol blends at the pump, provided it really is only 10% or less, it shouldn't greatly affect your tunes.

For the rest of us, it might give you slightly richer fuel trims and run a tad leaner under load, but unless you are tuned to the ragged edge, it's unlikely to be a cause for concern.

That said, anyone who is boosted should consider investing in a wideband and gauge so they can monitor AFR's under load anyway...

Kastley85891 · 06-18-2010, 10:17 PM

Ethanol blended fuel should not effect your FI car too much if that is it is not tuned on the edge, i.e. balls out, most tuners will back of from peak settings for the street and this is good practice.
Now...
If you want , to run balls out or just with a greater safety margin, go E85 and be done with it ;-) 600 to 650 cc injectors and 255 pump would cut it on moderate boost, you can always double pump and FPR later ;-0
28% - 32% more fuel , target AFR (gas based, not LAMBDA) of 11:8.1 --- 12:5.1 at WOT few more degrees of timing, more boost, bingo, knock free, cool igniting TRQ beast.
However, cold start may suck depending on where you live and how good your tuner sets up your injector latency and cold start variables, although cheaper , you will full up more ofton due to the increased flow of injector, you will be limited on where you get your fill depending on area.

I love the stuff though, it is totally addictive to run on a 'higher' boosted system. E85 on a street / track car can be hella fun

JORDO - WBo2 do not get the attention they deserve and agreed on the need for one, useful in any set up.

Sorry OP to go off on a tangant a little

DIGItonium · 06-19-2010, 12:15 AM

No problem. I guess I should be more worried about the corrosive nature of running E85 on a stock 370Z, correct? I didn't know it had higher octane properties. So can it serve as a mild octane booster? :-P

Kastley85891 · 06-19-2010, 12:24 AM

If you add it in your tank it can actually have an adverse effect on your octane rating.
Corrosive.... do some reading up, some good testing has been done on 'nonE' motors and no wear signature was found, in fact some cases it was actually better..there are off course arguments for both sides as expected, I think the main concern is when the fuel is left stagnent, i.e. long term parked vehicle, also some seals , O rings etc could degrade if not sepcifically designed for E.
Personally I have converted 3 vehicles to E85 and all I changed was the fuel pump, injectors on two of them, the other had new fuel rails, new injectors, and an FPR, never had an issue, granted my tank never stayed full for long ;-)

I know plenty of guys running E today on non E vehicles, hell my pal down the road ran his 454 69 SS Camero on it lol no ****, guy one up from him has a blown viper at 700 WHP on it, designed for it? no, tuned for it, hell yeah

marciomvp · 05-07-2011, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kastley85891

Ethanol blended fuel should not effect your FI car too much if that is it is not tuned on the edge, i.e. balls out, most tuners will back of from peak settings for the street and this is good practice.
Now...
If you want , to run balls out or just with a greater safety margin, go E85 and be done with it ;-) 600 to 650 cc injectors and 255 pump would cut it on moderate boost, you can always double pump and FPR later ;-0
28% - 32% more fuel , target AFR (gas based, not LAMBDA) of 11:8.1 --- 12:5.1 at WOT few more degrees of timing, more boost, bingo, knock free, cool igniting TRQ beast.
However, cold start may suck depending on where you live and how good your tuner sets up your injector latency and cold start variables, although cheaper , you will full up more ofton due to the increased flow of injector, you will be limited on where you get your fill depending on area.

I love the stuff though, it is totally addictive to run on a 'higher' boosted system. E85 on a street / track car can be hella fun

JORDO - WBo2 do not get the attention they deserve and agreed on the need for one, useful in any set up.

Sorry OP to go off on a tangant a little

You will have no problem running on 10% Etanol. Here in Brazil since 1900 gas was blended with around 15% Etanol.
Also, every guy that put a turbo in their car, goes 100% Etanol.
It's cheaper and easily available than hi-octane gas here in Brazil.

And yes, if you engine is not designed to receive 100% Etanol it will wear in the long term (+100,000 km) mainly in the valves region.

05-21-2010, 03:07 PM	#1 (permalink)
DIGItonium A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Kansas Posts: 3,800 Drives: 09 Z34-TT 6MT Rep Power: 42	FI and Ethanol Blend? What sort of problems are FI owners going to face when forced to use fuel with at least 10% ethanol blend? __________________

05-21-2010, 08:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
bullitt5897 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: North GA Posts: 6,831 Drives: Twin Turbo Z34 Rep Power: 3682	From my understanding only the lower grades use the ethanol blends. Most cars fuel systems do not meet the required standards to run ethanol based fluids for long periods of time due to the corrosive nature of ethanol. However, if they do force the higher octanes to run an ethanol blend I will make "pert" gas which in the racing industry is a mixture of high octane race fuel and pump gas. __________________ *Shop Cars: 2013 318whp Nismo VspecII 370z SOLD, 2009 1000hp+ 93oct 4.0L TT 370z Fast Intentions STAGE 4 #054*

05-23-2010, 12:51 AM	#3 (permalink)
DIGItonium A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Kansas Posts: 3,800 Drives: 09 Z34-TT 6MT Rep Power: 42	K thanks! My coworker has a Mazdaspeed6, and she complains about engine knocking. She's under the impression that all the gas stations here have 10% ethanol blend regardless of grade, and they don't even have to put a sticker to tell the customer. Last year I saw stickers all over the place about ethanol blend being required. That makes me a bit worried. I did some brief research, but got more confused. I wouldn't want to get a nicely tuned FI setup, and then blow the engine down the road due to craptastic fuel blend. __________________

05-23-2010, 11:02 AM	#6 (permalink)
DIGItonium A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Kansas Posts: 3,800 Drives: 09 Z34-TT 6MT Rep Power: 42	I remember reading that Ethanol would add a few points to the octane rating despite lower energy output and MPG. Thanks for the peace of mind __________________

06-07-2010, 02:25 PM	#8 (permalink)
bullitt5897 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: North GA Posts: 6,831 Drives: Twin Turbo Z34 Rep Power: 3682	Ethenol has not lived up to the expectations and the promises that were given about the nature of the product. For instance my dad had a ethenol rated avalanche and that truck made sh!t for power and torque. The truck also made nominal fuel mileage gains and overall was a pain in the butt!!! Now we traded in that avalanche for one that was the regular engine and found that it made more than 35+hp than the last and was only about 1-2 real mpg less than the ethenol on a bad day. Ethenol to me was a ploy by lobbyist toake money for a certain group of grain farmers and investors. Ethenol = over hyped fuel additive like so many other products. Trust me she probably got bad gas! I had that happened in my s2000 from quicktrip when they switched to their winter seasonal blend which so happened to have WATER in the fuel!!!! I thought I blew a headgasket!!!! Nothing like driving sown the road and then wam no throttle response and white smoke coming out of the exhaust! I was freaked as I just put in my emanage ultimate with a new aggressive race tune... I literally shat bricks! __________________ *Shop Cars: 2013 318whp Nismo VspecII 370z SOLD, 2009 1000hp+ 93oct 4.0L TT 370z Fast Intentions STAGE 4 #054*

06-07-2010, 01:42 PM	#7 (permalink)
CBRich A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: SC Posts: 2,464 Drives: 370Z Rep Power: 544	How the car runs with the ethanol is definitely not the issue as much as the corrosive properties are.

06-07-2010, 02:28 PM	#9 (permalink)
bullitt5897 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: North GA Posts: 6,831 Drives: Twin Turbo Z34 Rep Power: 3682	Note to add I ran the car in a parking lot for 5 min and it was getting back to normal. I drove it home emptied the gas from the tank and loaded shell gas and te car was back to normal on the new tune. __________________ *Shop Cars: 2013 318whp Nismo VspecII 370z SOLD, 2009 1000hp+ 93oct 4.0L TT 370z Fast Intentions STAGE 4 #054*

06-07-2010, 05:49 PM	#10 (permalink)
Sharif@Forged The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Marietta, GA Posts: 840 Drives: 2009 GT-R, 2010 370Z Rep Power: 17	E85 is widely used by performance tuners as a cheaper alternative to race fuel. With it's 105 octane rating, and availability at many gas stations across the country, it is becoming increasingly popular in performance circles. As a daily driver fuel, I agree it hasn't lived up the hype. But as a race fuel alternative, it's pretty baddass. With respect to corrosive properties, modern fuel systems take to alcohol based fuels very well. We've done many E85 conversions, without seeing degradation of rubber o-rings, seals...etc. E85 is becoming a viable alternative to expensive racing fuels. The drawback, is you need to upgrade your fuel system by at least 30% flow (larger injectors and bigger fuel pump systems) in order to offset the reduced energy contained in a gram of E85 vs. a gram of premium petrol. __________________ Sharif@Forgedperformance.com General Manager/Certified Tuner/NASA-PCA-BMWCAA Instructor JRZ RS1's Available NOW...PM me Cobb ProTuner, Uprev ECU Flash, FCON Vpro, Haltech, Motec Certified

06-07-2010, 06:03 PM	#11 (permalink)
Jordo! A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: nirvana Posts: 6,394 Drives: 2023 NATM Rep Power: 417	If you guys are talking about the 10% ethanol blends at the pump, provided it really is only 10% or less, it shouldn't greatly affect your tunes. For the rest of us, it might give you slightly richer fuel trims and run a tad leaner under load, but unless you are tuned to the ragged edge, it's unlikely to be a cause for concern. That said, anyone who is boosted should consider investing in a wideband and gauge so they can monitor AFR's under load anyway... __________________ Enjoy it. Destroy it.

06-18-2010, 10:17 PM	#12 (permalink)
Kastley85891 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: ATX 370 - Sold Posts: 1,149 Drives: 2003 Wagon Rep Power: 17	Ethanol blended fuel should not effect your FI car too much if that is it is not tuned on the edge, i.e. balls out, most tuners will back of from peak settings for the street and this is good practice. Now... If you want , to run balls out or just with a greater safety margin, go E85 and be done with it ;-) 600 to 650 cc injectors and 255 pump would cut it on moderate boost, you can always double pump and FPR later ;-0 28% - 32% more fuel , target AFR (gas based, not LAMBDA) of 11:8.1 --- 12:5.1 at WOT few more degrees of timing, more boost, bingo, knock free, cool igniting TRQ beast. However, cold start may suck depending on where you live and how good your tuner sets up your injector latency and cold start variables, although cheaper , you will full up more ofton due to the increased flow of injector, you will be limited on where you get your fill depending on area. I love the stuff though, it is totally addictive to run on a 'higher' boosted system. E85 on a street / track car can be hella fun JORDO - WBo2 do not get the attention they deserve and agreed on the need for one, useful in any set up. Sorry OP to go off on a tangant a little __________________ Boosted V8 hunter 2850 lbs and 375WHP Last edited by Kastley85891; 06-18-2010 at 10:19 PM.

06-19-2010, 12:15 AM	#13 (permalink)
DIGItonium A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Kansas Posts: 3,800 Drives: 09 Z34-TT 6MT Rep Power: 42	No problem. I guess I should be more worried about the corrosive nature of running E85 on a stock 370Z, correct? I didn't know it had higher octane properties. So can it serve as a mild octane booster? :-P __________________

06-19-2010, 12:24 AM	#14 (permalink)
Kastley85891 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: ATX 370 - Sold Posts: 1,149 Drives: 2003 Wagon Rep Power: 17	If you add it in your tank it can actually have an adverse effect on your octane rating. Corrosive.... do some reading up, some good testing has been done on 'nonE' motors and no wear signature was found, in fact some cases it was actually better..there are off course arguments for both sides as expected, I think the main concern is when the fuel is left stagnent, i.e. long term parked vehicle, also some seals , O rings etc could degrade if not sepcifically designed for E. Personally I have converted 3 vehicles to E85 and all I changed was the fuel pump, injectors on two of them, the other had new fuel rails, new injectors, and an FPR, never had an issue, granted my tank never stayed full for long ;-) I know plenty of guys running E today on non E vehicles, hell my pal down the road ran his 454 69 SS Camero on it lol no ****, guy one up from him has a blown viper at 700 WHP on it, designed for it? no, tuned for it, hell yeah __________________ Boosted V8 hunter 2850 lbs and 375WHP

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