China should pay that much if not more. As for real world times Chevy has posted the Nuremberg times and VIR times. Go ahead and compare with others. The VIR times are better than any GTR and the Nuremberg times are very respectable. Anyway I will post times from Watkins Glen when I go for track days. I have to say I like the way the Camaro looks. And as I have said before I will not even look at a Mustang to buy. I just don't like them but everybody has their own opinions. Oh and as for nav. I have a TomTom and don't really need anything else. I can afford the car and will be getting one. I won't have any regrets.

The point you missed was you can dream up any kind of race tailored to any car to let it win.

Get a short oval track and a go-kart will beat both.

Tru dat I ran my 91 Firebird on a go-cart road course in Solocross. That is where I learned that my stock tires where like rocks, they did make alot of smoke though.:driving:

GM is consider a premium brand in China. GM makes a killing off their Chinese division.

Chinese LOVE Buick.

GM started selling in china because they were sick of china copying their designs

You are 100% on target, and this is why fords sra still sells. On flat tracks it does great, so magazines sell fords and people who track them do fine if they stay off rough curbing. In the real world though, over less than perfect roads, not as good.

This is one quibble I also have with my 370. My z06 handled wavy roads and dips much better. That so far is the only complaint I have regarding performance. Poor rebound control.

Import do a search in suspension section. I'm sure there are handling posts there.:ugh2:

IC... Koni Yellows :tup:

Any seat in a mustang is riding bitch.

As for above, the 2013 GT500 is gonna have one hell of a mark-up it's first year. Especially being the 20th anniversary of SVT.

If you pay the mark up you aint looking

Good point, I've always assumed the people who pay that are in a comfortable enough tax bracket to even worry about it.

+1

This summer I was looking at the GT500 here in EL Paso and the dealers were marking them up between $8 and $10k. They wouldn't even negotiate. But I found places near Dallas advertising on the Internet GT500s between invoice and MSRP. I have no problem visiting Dallas for a weekend to save $8k or more.

Also I'm a member of USAA and they have a pre negotiated price for most cars. So I'll compare Internet prices, usaa prices, and have several dealers bidding against each other. Remember this year the Shelby's are bein built on the same line as the GT. So ford said it would built as many as were ordered even up to 10k.

Come up to my neck of the woods where you have one or two dealers per brand. They offer a take it or leave it price because they know if you don't buy it someone else will pay their price. Yes, I could call dealers in Montreal (700 miles away to save maybe another $600 but that is chewed up in travelling to get the car). I'm probably done with buying new and the next car will be purchased in the States used in conjunction with a vacation.

Your dealers have a $600 ADM? :ugh2:

ADM? Anyway, local dealers have the attitude that giving you $500 off MSRP is a rare event and I should be so lucky to have that offered to me! Take it or leave it. If a dealer in Montreal who actually has competition from other dealers are only offering say $1100 off MSRP then I save an additional $600 over the local dealer. Not worth the effort even if it were $1500 off. I have yet to see documented proof of anyone buying a new, not a leftover from the previous year, 370Z at or below invoice in Canada excluding Nissan specials. I did however buy the roadster when Nissan had a $10000 off MSRP - well below invoice and the timing was right.

Anyway, as for the topic at hand, I would trade my wife, err, her Z roadster, at the drop of a hat for a ZL1 - she won't. But next year, the ZL1 can be had topless! A few years down the road, I may see a trip south for a used ZL1 with warranty remaining.

The big thing when dealing with car deals is BE PATIENT.

Like I said, I was originally going to buy a 2SS/RS Camaro sight unseen back in 2009 on a pre-order. Had been working with a local dealer and had everything lined up. My buddy worked for GM and got me an employee discount code I could use on the car and GM approved it's use on a Camaro even though it was brand new.

The dealer wouldn't accept the code. Told me they could set their own pricing. I had my check book in hand ready to put the deposit down, and they let me walk out over a $2500 discount from MSRP.

I went and test drove the Challenger, they had employee price, $1000 cash back, and 0% financing making it about $7K off sticker. I bought it and never looked back.

Same thing on GT500s and whatever else. You just have to play hard ball with these dealers some times, or maybe wait an extra year. No biggie to me, I'll just continue to make payments to my savings account for that year and have an even bigger down payment, and get the car even cheaper the following year, of better yet find a low mileage used one that someone bought, couldn't afford, and turned back in.

Also here are some other things I find help


1. Pre approved loan - I listen to there rate. But I walked in knowing that I had a good rate

2. Negotiate everything separately - agree on a price of the car before you even talk trade in or financing

3. Negotiate price of car not monthly payments

4. Don't buy the extras - you can usually add an extended warranty later if you feel you need it.

5. Research the car before you go. Only thing A salesman is useful for is filling out the paperwork and giving me the keys. I find that most know very little beyond what is in the brochure.

Well it look like GM is having problems with the ZL1.


http://i.autoblog.com/2012/03/20/che...imited-2012-m/

Hmmmm, QA issue or marketing ploy to build hype......

GM makes more money if they sell more. Not holding production and limiting the number coming out.

i would go with a Z since the camaro is going to drink LOTS and LOTS of gas about $500/month and also you have that much power but wont be able to use it on the street. the 370z is lighter too.and cheaper, but its all on personal preffernce.

Word on the street is that to compete with the 2013 Mustang GT500, the bowtie boys have brought in the germans to add some extra farfegnugen to the ZL1. Don't let them know I told ya! :eek:

GT500 invoice pricing.

https://docs.google.com/file/preview...lJbzFZUQ&pli=1

the worst car I've ever owned was a camero, would never go back no matter how good the new ones are. There's a reason GM needed a bailout and Nissan didn't

Used to think like that but then I got with my girlfriend who only ever had domestics. She/We had her 2000 trans AM V8 for 10 years with no major issues. Had a 06 Vette for 4 years and no issues period. Currently she has a 2010 Camaro SS 6-speed, no issues for the last 2 years. Considering this track record I would have no problem getting a ZL1 or a Vette.

NO Dice
 

Camaro's and Mustang's are not for me I have never really liked American cars. I will stick to my awesome imports.

If this doesn't convince you I don't know what will


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRuE3...e_gdata_player

Its a sweet car, my best friend just took delivery of his. But its nothing like the Z.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/kramerz500/7321302094/" title="Untitled by Kramerz500, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7231/7321302094_51fd6352b6_b.jpg" width="640" height="960" alt="Untitled"></a>
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That's an awesome video.... So what's better, a GT-R or a Shelby GT500 ?

Whichever one makes you happiest! GT-R is still the king of affordable supercars, but the new GT500 is very impressive.

Can't wait to start seeing some (road) track times roll in. Really wish Ford would release their Nurburgring testing #s. I want to see how much it spanked the ZL1 by.

2013 Shelby GT500 reviews hit the web | Mustangs Daily

+1.......... :iagree: I would take the Ford GT500 any day of the week & twice on Sunday over the Chevy Camaro ZL1.

:iagree:

I just can't grasp that the GT500 is 2 HP short of doubling the 370z

:iagree:Just cannot stand to see another Camaro. To me they look no better than the 1982 version.

:iagree:

The interior is FUGLY!