Controlling temperature wasn't the driving force in reducing friction in this case. The goal was to decrease power losses and increase fuel efficiency, both of which were accomplished. A lesser important side effect/benefit was that less heat was generated due to lower friction.

I say less important because the amount of heat generated from the valve lifters is relatively insignificant relative to everything else happening inside an engine (ie. combustion), and a very small component in controlling engine temperatures. You can verify this by running a typical high-performance synthetic compared to the ester oil and watching temps. It's unlikely you would see any statistically significant variance in overall engine temps. between the two.

You actually will see a notable drop with a good synth due to the poor lubrication qualities of the ester oil.


You're what, a Chem E grad student? Maybe a couple years working?

It's unlikely that their esters are super special anyways, most likely the esters found in many high-end synthetics these days are compatible and accomplish the same goal intended for the DLC while being better all-around oils. I think the point with the ester oil was not to run a crappy regular dino oil that was not only a poor oil to begin with, but also lacked the esters (i.e. if they didn't put out this oil and this recommendation, people might be taking the car to jiffy lube and getting random generic dino oil).

I'd like to see a dyno test. What you are saying basically amounts to: If you run Ester oil, it's like installing roller rockers.

Well roller rockers are worth about 10-15bhp at this level, so lets see some proof on the dyno. Run Ester for 1500 miles and dyno, then run Mobil 1 for 1500 miles and dyno again. SAE corrected both times. Then drain the Mobil 1, put the ester back in, and roll it back on the dyno and see if the power level goes back up after the car cools down and is run again after the oil change.

THEN I will be a believer.

Nope. First of all, tribology is a mechanical engineering topic, not chemical engineering.

I worked in research for several years, now I work in industry.

Well, since you work in research, you are familiar with all the BS that can be done by adjusting confidence intervals, Alpha, and all that jazz. I'm thinking Nissan did just a little of that...

I have no personal stake in this, I just happen to know a bit about how it works.

If you have access to the Tribology International journal, you'll be able to read the methodology and results for yourself. Hell, they even spell out the name of the chemical compound and the base oil composition by wt.% so you can tell yourself whether or not the the components that make the ester oil effective are in whatever flavor of oil you like to run.

JSME has reviewed the work and recognized Nissan and the researchers behind this.

PM me for publication information if you'd like to read about it for yourself. I can't post articles online, as it is protected information.

Are you referring to this paper? http://www.sfplayers.com/blog/dlcPap...ernational.pdf

We've seen it before.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree. This isn't some fly-by-night lab run by a snake oil salesman. This is credible, published information, and recognized by professional societies the world over.

And it's not like Nissan is flaunting the science behind this to the public. It's not something the average person would care about, or even be able to understand.

http://www.sfplayers.com/blog/dlcPap...ernational.pdf


http://www.sfplayers.com/blog/dlcPap...ernational.pdf


http://www.sfplayers.com/blog/dlcPapers/de-Barros


Apparently they are now in the public domain...

Those are some good ones, there's more out there depending on how deep you'd like to dig. Without the requisite tribological background, I imagine it'd be a snooze-fest for most folks.

A question for you: In general reading on the subject I found that Red Line Synthetic oil (I have some on the shelf in preparation for my first at-home oil change in February) was classified as an ester oil, as such would it be an appropriate alternative to Nissans ester oil? On previous vehicles I haven't worried a great deal about which oil I used other than to make sure that it met the appropriate SAE spec. The Z if a different animal and I don't want to screw it up as I plan to keep the car a long (6-10 years) time.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Let's see the publication numbers then. I still have access through NASA.
Go ahead and shoot them up. Pm me if you prefer.

Well, getting down to the nitty gritty, it comes down to this: the basic paper I linked earlier says their testing was on a PAO-based oil that used 1% of an ester called "glycerol mono-oleate" to get their lowest frictions w/ the DLC coating. Quality ester-based synthetics like redline/motul have largely mysterious makeups, but best guesses are anywhere from 20-40% of some sort of esters in e.g. Motul 300V. Motul says they use two different esters in their oils, but they don't state which ones. You can get MSDS for the oil, and MSDS for the glycerol mono-oleate, but seeing as the glycerol mono-oleate isn't dangerous, it's not listed on the MSDS for the oil whether it's there or not.

So, barring someone doing expensive testing or getting Motul or Redline to provide a straight answer on whether 1%+ of that specific ester is in their oil, we're in unknown territory going by the specs. Still, I'd place good money if they got their awesome friction numbers on a generic PAO + 1% of this specific ester, that a quality racing oil known to be 20%+ of at least two kinds of unknown esters, that Nissan even uses in its own race cars (the 300V), probably achieves the same effect. Doubtless several other quality synthetics do too.

The big practical flaw in the PDF report is that they showed comparison of DLC + their PAO +1% glycerol mono-oleate versus a reference of just plain old motor oil. It would have been nice to compare it to well-engineered ester based oils already on the market...

They don't compare it because it gets beat by other oils.

So . . . tribology has nothing to do with tribbing? Damn.

False, this isn't about commercialization or a competitor's product. The reason for base oil comparison is the purpose of the testing is to isolate the specific additive that improves the frictional behavior.

It's not to say that "our oil is better than competitor X." It's to gain scientific understanding. You must keep that in mind when reading a scientific journal entry.

Nissan's commercial ester oil they sell very well be outperfromed (depending on metrics) over a given oil change interval by a premium synthetic, a higher quality base oil, especially if it also contains the specific compound that makes this friction magic happen. No arguments there. But without that compound, you don't get that breakthrough in friction reduction.

Thanks for the condescension. I've read a scientific journal or two....



Like all companies, Nissan has a marketing team controlling anything that gets published in a prj or goes into a white paper. It's just good business.

Still waiting on those articles...I'd imagine that something so ground breaking would be saved....and there'd probably be some follow up research.

Is this real life?

So where do these enigmatic nanoparticles fit into all of this? I was under the impression that nissan's oil is unique due to those nanoparticles and not the esters since there are already several brands of synthetic ester oils on the market.

So is it reasonable to assume that Red Line Synthetic is an appropriate alternative to Nissan Ester Oil?

I sent you a PM saying it would take some time for me to find. Yes, it was a break through...6-7 years ago!

I also told you how to search if you truly do have access to the resources to LEGALLY read these.

Clearly this has become personal for you, you just want to prove me wrong. Like I said, I have no personal stake in this, not my research. And if the 3-4 articles haven't begun to convince you of anything, no number of publications will convince you either. Doesn't make me inclined to take my valuable time dig through my records and locate them for that kind of person.

^ you are posting (mis) information with no source. Burden is on you to source, not me to disprove.

:bowrofl:

if four articles detailing the effects of the ester compound in conjunction with the h free dlc don't at least pull back the curtain for you, reading 20, 40, even 100 arctiles telling you the same results won't do anything either.

This isn't a pissing contest. A person either understands the fundamentals behind the science or doesn't. From there its a matter of either agreeing or disagreeing with the findings.

Cool off buddy, its just science

Or determining that the test method wasn't arranged to make a notable determination (which anyone in other engineering discipline can recognize). Maybe mech focuses less on that stuff....I dunno.

The easiest way to find if research is significant is checking for follow up. I don't see much.

I see in the description that the 2012's suspension is stated to be refined, this has led me to think the 2012 370Z will include everything the 2011 European GT Edition has received including the oil cooler. I hope they improved the paint quality too. I'm hoping they improved the paint quality, even though i'm a detailing fanatic i still wouldn't mind a better quality factory paint, which shouldn't be something i have to ask for. I'm getting a clearbra as soon as i'm done detailing her once i take delivery, but still a durable paint job should be included.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OJkbEZMDFY

Brake ducting? Factory oil cooler? Refined suspension?

Why am I getting the feeling that I should have kept my 350Z for another year... :shakes head:

I think I'm going to just get a moped or something. :roflpuke2:

It's SCIENCE!!
 

We all get science, none of us are morons here, and quite a few of us have engineering and scientific backgrounds. The reason he's getting miffed is because you're out here touting your credentials as giving you some magic understanding that mere mortals cannot hope to achieve about this subject.

If there's a reason that running Nissan's specific ester oil blend is better for the friction properties of the VVEL heads than other quality synthetic ester-blend lubricants, we'd love to hear about it. Nissan's basic science work that we've seen in the PDFs combined with available data from oil mfgs don't even begin to answer that question in a rigorous manner, in either direction. Empirically though, nobody's gone and shown a dyno power dropoff from switching off of Nissan Ester either.

To expound on the science part: what they show in the paper is that (a) their nifty H-free DLC does better than two other types of surface material regardless of the oil type used (b) their PAO + ester blend does better than regular oil regardless of the surface type, and (c) (DUH) the best results in the test come from combining the two best-tested: their PAO + ester and their H-free DLC.

What the paper does not at all address for our pragmatic needs: (1) Is their PAO + 1% glycerol mono-oleate the *only* variety of engine lubricant that can reach frictions levels this low or lower in combination with their H-free DLC? (2) More specifically, was it really exactly 1% glycerol mono-oleate that works, or do other percentages of other similar esters work? (3) Is glycerol mono-oleate, or another equal-performing ester in tests with H-free DLC, a commonly used ester in ester-blended oils from other manufacturers?

You get the idea. Unless Nissan and/or other oil manufacturers want to take their science (and engineering) reporting to the next level and answer the Practical Questions That Matter To Us, we have to rely on empirical data from running these engines in the real world with various oils, which so far does not fall in favor of Nissan Ester Oil.

Bingo. Tons of bright, technical people on here.
No need to be condescending to the group....

I'm going to cut in and throw a question out there....

Would it be good to use a air cooled and water cooled system together? The reason I say this is because water cooled portion will bring the temp up quickly and regulate the temp. The air cooled system would be an additional radiator for cooling.

Am I totally off base here?

Why over complicate matters. Depending on your driving habits, you don't necessarily "need" either one for street use. The track or track like conditions has already proven the air cooled units to be effective depending on the unit and purpose. Some are in fact too effective, in which case a thermal plate is required to prevent over cooling. Using both is kind of like using steamroller to hammer in a nail.

:stirthepot:

:|

I get it... its an oil cooler thread. I suggest cooling off by air and by water Dan. :icon17:

:|







:|





















:icon17:

Talk about a thread derail!

On topic, still need stock radiator data

With the existing air coolers, the thermostatic sandwich plate isn't enough when the weather gets cold though, you need a block-off plate for the front usually as well.

You're right once you've paid the risk cost of running lines out front for an air cooler, you could just as easily upsize the cooler if you need to instead of adding on a water cooler.

However: I originally installed a 19-row air cooler (+thermo plate, and now +blockoff plate too in the colder months) for street and light track use, and I want a bit more cooling before next summer. If we didn't have an easy water kit, I'd probably just bump up to a 25 or 34 and need to use blockoff plates more often. Adding the water cooler seems like an even better option to me (assuming it isn't ridiculously overpriced) because it may just let me leave my 19-row in place, get sufficient track cooling, and actually help with the overcooling in cold situations rather than hurt.