Faster with VCD off?

wstar · 04-17-2009, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

But watch out, dude. People are going to accuse you of being a Luddite! (I've made similar remarks and people have gotten bent out of shape, accusing me of being resistant to technological progress. lol.)

Well, car technology is now at a point where, given enough money and desire, you can make a car "drive itself" (you operating the gas/brake/steering wheel, but it taking care of gearing, dynamic suspension, abs, traction control, etc) better than any human could hope to. However, consumer-level technology that's made on a budget, such as VDC in our cars, (a) is the cheap version and doesn't do all that stellar a job compared to what's possible, and (b) is designed and programmed towards saving novice drivers from accidents, not improving on the lap times of a pro driver.

Assuming we had a badass system capable of really controlling the car in an aggressive drive, then you get to the question of whether you'd rather learn to drive for real, or rather have the car take care of it for you. Someday, knowing how to drive a car with a real manual gearbox and no ABS is going to be purely the realm of historic sport, and everyday driving won't involve those skills anymore. It will be like practicing the sport of fencing in the era of assault rifles: rewarding, but not necessary. However, we're not there yet in general, and our Z's VDC isn't even close, so that's not even the question we face today. You can't push this car to its limits with VDC on, plain and simple. If you want the most out of your car, you're gonna have to learn to drive with it off.

shabarivas · 04-17-2009, 03:22 PM

^ exactly!

k.alexander · 04-17-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

well, car technology is now at a point where, given enough money and desire, you can make a car "drive itself" (you operating the gas/brake/steering wheel, but it taking care of gearing, dynamic suspension, abs, traction control, etc) better than any human could hope to. However, consumer-level technology that's made on a budget, such as vdc in our cars, (a) is the cheap version and doesn't do all that stellar a job compared to what's possible, and (b) is designed and programmed towards saving novice drivers from accidents, not improving on the lap times of a pro driver.

Assuming we had a badass system capable of really controlling the car in an aggressive drive, then you get to the question of whether you'd rather learn to drive for real, or rather have the car take care of it for you. Someday, knowing how to drive a car with a real manual gearbox and no abs is going to be purely the realm of historic sport, and everyday driving won't involve those skills anymore. It will be like practicing the sport of fencing in the era of assault rifles: Rewarding, but not necessary. However, we're not there yet in general, and our z's vdc isn't even close, so that's not even the question we face today. You can't push this car to its limits with vdc on, plain and simple. If you want the most out of your car, you're gonna have to learn to drive with it off.

well said!

spearfish25 · 04-17-2009, 04:34 PM

I see VDC this way now. It's a nice safety factor, especially for those times when you're not focused on your driving. For example, if you're cruising on the highway, why not keep it on in the event you have to avoid an accident or hit a patch of ice (just hypotheticals)? Those are cases where you'd probably like any help you can get in keeping your car stable and moving in the direction of your liking. If I'm just going for groceries, I'd rather have VDC on my side if I get surprised during a situation where stability and control are an issue.

Conversely, those times when you want to be in control or drive on the edge when you're focused on doing so, turn it off. Just be thankful we have a button to choose whether it's on or off.

chubbs · 04-17-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spearfish25

...If I'm just going for groceries, I'd rather have VDC on my side if I get surprised during a situation where stability and control are an issue....

You've just pinpointed the problem with VDC. People ASSUME and THINK that VDC will be 'on my side' in a situation where 'stability and control are an issue', but in my experience this isn't always the case. I had an experience where VDC took control out of my hands, caused the rear of my car to fishtail like crazy and nearly made me smash into the side of a bus.

That single incident was the main reason for me habitually turning it off - firstly it can lead to complacency (you think VDC will get you out of a situation, when in fact it won't) and secondly I'd rather try to get the car back under control myself, in a situation like that.

If you're going to leave VDC switched on, for godsake don't rely on it being 'on my side', or you could end up 'on YOUR side'.

ChrisSlicks · 04-17-2009, 05:06 PM

It did save my *** one time in my G35.

It was a nice sunny winter day, snow was mostly melted. I was throwing the car through some back country roads at a good clip when I hit a small patch of ice mid corner. The VDC acted instantly, reacting quicker than I possibly could of and kept the car straight and level. I have quick reactions but I really don't know how well I would have faired on that one.

spearfish25 · 04-17-2009, 05:27 PM

Yep, I've had similar 'saves' in my Audi A4. I swerved off the highway as I was about to miss an offramp and hit gravel on the shoulder. The tail started to spin out despite quattro, and the stability control saved my a$$. I'm working under the assumption that the 370Z VDC works as well as the Audi system. I surely would have wrecked the car if I didn't have the slip protection enabled.

If the car is fishtailing with VDC on, I'd argue you didn't have a prayer with it off. Since it cuts power and modulates the brakes on all four wheels, it would have to malfunction to make the situation worse.

wstar · 04-17-2009, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spearfish25

If the car is fishtailing with VDC on, I'd argue you didn't have a prayer with it off. Since it cuts power and modulates the brakes on all four wheels, it would have to malfunction to make the situation worse.

One situation (I don't know if that's what was being referenced) where it can make things worse is where you know what's going on and you're trying to push through a slide to get out of the way of whatever, and the VDC will opt for stability and cut your throttle and/or tap your brakes and prevent what you're trying to accomplish.

spearfish25 · 04-17-2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

One situation (I don't know if that's what was being referenced) where it can make things worse is where you know what's going on and you're trying to push through a slide to get out of the way of whatever, and the VDC will opt for stability and cut your throttle and/or tap your brakes and prevent what you're trying to accomplish.

This is true. I drove an Audi RS4 on a wet racetrack and was continuously annoyed when the skid protection would stop me from applying throttle to slide gracefully out of a turn. However, during daily driving I'd imagine VDC would do a much better job of controlling an inadvertent skid than I would.

shabarivas · 04-17-2009, 05:35 PM

This happens to depend on what kind of setup you have... the more oversteer.. the more you will have VDC save your *** if you F up... if you have understeer... and VDC kicks in prematurely - which it will.. you will steer clear into the lanes closest to the merge lane = very bad

rackley · 04-18-2009, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

One situation (I don't know if that's what was being referenced) where it can make things worse is where you know what's going on and you're trying to push through a slide to get out of the way of whatever, and the VDC will opt for stability and cut your throttle and/or tap your brakes and prevent what you're trying to accomplish.

Like an aggressive merge into tight traffic - something I do multiple times every day during rush hour.

Pushing_Tin · 04-18-2009, 12:13 PM

This car really needs a sport or track setting for the VDC. It's way too intrusive on the normal setting. A few times I have tried to hit a gap in traffic and instead of rapid acceleration I get a bogged down engine.

Now a few times I have had it off during periods of "spirited driving" I have nearly spun the car out. The wheelbase is so short it has been difficult to control the oversteer without it snapping around like a bullwhip. You have to really watch it if you're driving hard with the VDC off imo.

SeverianB · 04-18-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

I'm curious, I don't race cars or been involved in a time attack, i'm just a regular driver. Does VDC is really needed for someone like me(when its dry)?

Leave the VDC on at all times in your case... unless you want to do something that it prevents, such as doing a burn-out, getting the tail end out, etc. (you know, crazy bad stuff... FUN stuff)

Electronic stability control has been PROVEN to save lives. On every type of car that has had a version with VDC/ESC and one without, the number of fatal accidents is 50% less in the VDC version of the car. This has been proven time and time again.

If you are an average driver, going about your business...leave the VDC on. Of this there is no doubt. None.

wstar · 04-18-2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pushing_Tin

The wheelbase is so short it has been difficult to control the oversteer without it snapping around like a bullwhip. You have to really watch it if you're driving hard with the VDC off imo.

This is just something you have to get used to in a rear-wheel-drive car with a good HP/Weight ratio. Find somewhere (without cars or curbs) to practice, and you'll learn to modulate the throttle to control the oversteer - either avoid it completely, or do a 180 if the situation calls for it (makes for much tigher U-turns

), or anything in between. Once you have a feel for that oversteer, it makes it much easier to ride the edge of it when going through curves, too.

355890 · 04-18-2009, 04:19 PM

VDC - when ignited will Freak you out to the point you almost feel like you are loosing control.

Weird feeling.

If you have never felt the effects, take a moment and try driving one side of the car thru ankle deep standing water and the other side on dry running at about 50mph. You will then get a taste of what to expect from the VDC in a safe environment.

I drive with it off except in bad weather, where it becomes "an aide: not a "do it all for me" device.

04-18-2009, 04:19 PM	#45 (permalink)
355890 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 416 Drives: GP Z Base+Sport (6m) Rep Power: 541	VDC - when ignited will Freak you out to the point you almost feel like you are loosing control. Weird feeling. If you have never felt the effects, take a moment and try driving one side of the car thru ankle deep standing water and the other side on dry running at about 50mph. You will then get a taste of what to expect from the VDC in a safe environment. I drive with it off except in bad weather, where it becomes "an aide: not a "do it all for me" device. __________________ *"Burnley Football Club supporter" ENGLAND...ENGLAND...ENGLAND*

04-17-2009, 03:22 PM	#32 (permalink)
shabarivas A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,188 Drives: 370z MB 6mt Rep Power: 914	^ exactly!

04-17-2009, 04:34 PM	#34 (permalink)
spearfish25 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 4,117 Drives: to work Rep Power: 1856	I see VDC this way now. It's a nice safety factor, especially for those times when you're not focused on your driving. For example, if you're cruising on the highway, why not keep it on in the event you have to avoid an accident or hit a patch of ice (just hypotheticals)? Those are cases where you'd probably like any help you can get in keeping your car stable and moving in the direction of your liking. If I'm just going for groceries, I'd rather have VDC on my side if I get surprised during a situation where stability and control are an issue. Conversely, those times when you want to be in control or drive on the edge when you're focused on doing so, turn it off. Just be thankful we have a button to choose whether it's on or off.

04-17-2009, 05:06 PM	#36 (permalink)
ChrisSlicks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North East Posts: 6,203 Drives: 09 370Z Sport M6 Rep Power: 653	It did save my *** one time in my G35. It was a nice sunny winter day, snow was mostly melted. I was throwing the car through some back country roads at a good clip when I hit a small patch of ice mid corner. The VDC acted instantly, reacting quicker than I possibly could of and kept the car straight and level. I have quick reactions but I really don't know how well I would have faired on that one.

04-17-2009, 05:27 PM	#37 (permalink)
spearfish25 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 4,117 Drives: to work Rep Power: 1856	Yep, I've had similar 'saves' in my Audi A4. I swerved off the highway as I was about to miss an offramp and hit gravel on the shoulder. The tail started to spin out despite quattro, and the stability control saved my a$$. I'm working under the assumption that the 370Z VDC works as well as the Audi system. I surely would have wrecked the car if I didn't have the slip protection enabled. If the car is fishtailing with VDC on, I'd argue you didn't have a prayer with it off. Since it cuts power and modulates the brakes on all four wheels, it would have to malfunction to make the situation worse.

04-17-2009, 05:35 PM	#40 (permalink)
shabarivas A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,188 Drives: 370z MB 6mt Rep Power: 914	This happens to depend on what kind of setup you have... the more oversteer.. the more you will have VDC save your *** if you F up... if you have understeer... and VDC kicks in prematurely - which it will.. you will steer clear into the lanes closest to the merge lane = very bad

04-18-2009, 12:13 PM	#42 (permalink)
Pushing_Tin A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 2,875 Drives: E63 AMG Rep Power: 227	This car really needs a sport or track setting for the VDC. It's way too intrusive on the normal setting. A few times I have tried to hit a gap in traffic and instead of rapid acceleration I get a bogged down engine. Now a few times I have had it off during periods of "spirited driving" I have nearly spun the car out. The wheelbase is so short it has been difficult to control the oversteer without it snapping around like a bullwhip. You have to really watch it if you're driving hard with the VDC off imo.