so what exactly do you have to do....

k.alexander · 02-24-2009, 03:59 PM

God, I just hope noone dies after reading this thread

pagefaulted · 02-24-2009, 04:54 PM

I don't understand, are you people kicking out the rear on public roads on purpose?

When I start to fishtail my natural reaction is to disengage the clutch and but not touch the brakes. You're saying this is incorrect?

RCZ · 02-24-2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chupacabra

For a second there I though that everything i learned at racing school and years of racing was wrong, but then RCZ calmed my concern.

now my question is, i was playing with the traction control system, because it was a sunday.... I noticed that when you kick the tale out and hit the throttle, the computer disengages the throttle, and well it corrects the 'spin' for you.... now I know that this is what its supposed to do, it applies the right amount of power. But question is if you are going at high speeds and get into a spin, will the computer still save you a$$ or does it just say "oh f*ck it let the driver figure it out" and give you control back.

The thing is the computer reacts much faster and knows you're sliding before you even know it. It corrects the slide before the slide becomes a slide. If its too late, the ecu will apply throttle and brakes to control the slide as it detects which wheel has traction and which one doesn't. Traction control is way more complicated and advanced than most people know.. There is only SO much the computer can do though, if you get into an uncontrollable spin the computer will try to regain traction, however it is often futile. To answer your question of whether or not you get control again if the computer cant figure it out, the answer is no. If you decided to slam on the gas in the middle of your spin, the car won't let you. (not to mention that is a strategy best reserved for video games). Applying gas in that situation will only make things worst.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pagefaulted

I don't understand, are you people kicking out the rear on public roads on purpose?

When I start to fishtail my natural reaction is to disengage the clutch and but not touch the brakes. You're saying this is incorrect?

Ya, that is incorrect. It is actually the worst thing you can do. The moment you disengage the clutch you lose any ability to use the throttle to control the slide. Not to mention it is just as much of a shock to traction and balance as if you suddenly got off the throttle mid slide. Remember, all your inputs should lead to a smooth change in the overall dynamics of the car. If your car is doing very abrupt weight shifts either front and back or side to side, you aren't driving it right.

In high performance situations: When you press the gas you should be able to count from 1 to 5 at least in the process. Meaning the process of going from 0% to 100% throttle should take however long it takes you to say: one, two, three, four, five. When you press the brake you should be able to count from 3-6 in the process of going from 0% to 100% brake.

Similarly with turning, you should try to avoid turning abruptly in either direction. If you turn abruptly it will unsettle the car and often cause you to understeer (plow). Turn-in should always be smooth and controlled.

"But RCZ, when I watch anything from rally to timeattack to F1, the drivers are often flailing their hands around very abruptly! What gives!?"

Their inputs may be fast and abrupt, but if you ever see a shot from OUTSIDE the car, the car is moving very very smoothly. That is what matters. The weight transfers must be smooth and the movement of the car must be smooth. You may have to flail your hands around like a maniac at times, more so when you are driving race cars than street cars. (Think Karting if anyone has ever done it. Turn 1 at my local kart track is a flat out full speed right hander that leads into a very tight right hairpin. Sometimes I may have to catch not 1, but 5 or 6 slides in just that one corner. Hands flail, but the kart follows a smooth path. Yes I have also 720'd straight through the tirewall on the outside of the corner, but we won't talk about that). Again, be smooth and you will be faster and safer than everyone else.

Tying back to my original response; letting the clutch out/letting off the gas abruptly/braking = abrupt weight transfers = not good. The moment you lift off the gas it shifts the weight OFF the rear wheels and towards the fronts. I'm not going to get into the physics of friction and grip, but you can imagine that when there is less "weight" or force pushing down on the rear wheels, there is going to be less grip. Less grip = you're off the road.

Lastly, I should add that this logic applies also when you have FULL grip. If you are taking a fast sweeping corner and you let off the gas abruptly or tap the brakes, it will take weight off the rear tires and therefore you will loose grip and you will spin. You may have heard about this, it is referred to as "lift throttle oversteer" It is one of the most common major mistakes that rookies make on the track. If anyone remembers the pictures of the 997 GT2 I put up a while back, the one that crashed...guess what happened...yeah. Having the weight at the rear of the porsche helps grip until you lift and lose grip, then it becomes a pendulum.

BanningZ · 02-24-2009, 06:39 PM

I think it also needs to be defined whether a driver is in snow or asphalt. letting off the brake and turning into the skid is correct in snow. When I think of skidding, I think of Snow but I guess it all depends on where your driving.

mattkim85 · 02-24-2009, 07:28 PM

yea my main concern is that
los angeles doesnt have many rainy days
but when they do the roads get really really slippery.

i once accelerated on a straight road (w/ vdc on) after
a light drizzle and the tail almost kicked out to the side.
if i had vdc off it wouldnt have been a pretty picture im sure.
So im just trying to get a little bit of knowledge of
how you control RWD cars.

oh and hey thanks RCZ and everyone else.
im not 100% sure what you guys meant but im starting
to get a picture of how to control it.

RCZ · 02-24-2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattkim85

yea my main concern is that
los angeles doesnt have many rainy days
but when they do the roads get really really slippery.

i once accelerated on a straight road (w/ vdc on) after
a light drizzle and the tail almost kicked out to the side.
if i had vdc off it wouldnt have been a pretty picture im sure.
So im just trying to get a little bit of knowledge of
how you control RWD cars.

oh and hey thanks RCZ and everyone else.
im not 100% sure what you guys meant but im starting
to get a picture of how to control it.

You are very welcome, I'm not sure what BanningZ meant, the behavior is the same for every situation regardless of whether its rain, snow, sleet or sunshine. Snow lets you get away with mistakes and makes you look like a hero, specially if you have AWD. The technique is still the same though...

Mattkim, all it takes is one day on the track and you will understand every single last thing everyone has said on this thread. Much of it is hard to grasp until you experience it. Get either on the track with an instructor or do a High Performance Driving School.

EDIT: Not every situation, mud is completely different, almost backwards...

BanningZ · 02-24-2009, 09:12 PM

Safe Winter Driving

Quote:

Winter Driving
DMV Driver's Manual
Advice from the New York state Department of Motor Vehicles Driver's Manual
Winter is the most difficult driving season. Not only do you have snow and ice to deal with, but there are fewer hours of daylight as well.
Before winter weather arrives, make sure your vehicle is in good condition, especially the tires. Make sure you've got good snow tires, and put them on early. Try not to get caught without them in the first snowfall. Never combine radial and non-radial tires on the same vehicle. On front-wheel drive cars, it's best to put snow tires or "all-season" tires on all four wheels, not just the front.
If you must drive, clear the ice and snow from your vehicle, all windows and windshield wipers. Be sure the windshield washer reservoir is adequately filled with a freeze-resistant cleaning solution.
Drive slowly. Even if your vehicle has good traction in ice and snow, other drivers will be traveling cautiously. Don't distrupt the flow of traffic by driving faster than everyone else.
In a rear-wheel drive vehicle, you can usually feel a loss of traction or the beginning of a skid. There may be no such warning in a front-wheel drive, however. Front-wheel drives do handle better in ice and snow, but they do not have flawless traction, and skids can occur unexpectedly. Don't let the better feel and handling of a front-wheel drive car cause you to drive faster than you should.
Despite a popular misconception, the best approach to recovering from a skid is the same for foth front and rear-wheel drive vehicles. If your rear wheels start to skid:

* Turn the steering wheel in the direction you want the front wheels to go. If your rear wheels are sliding left, steer left. If they're sliding right, steer right.
* If your rear wheels start sliding the other way as you recover, ease the steering wheel toward that side. You might have to steer left and right a few times to get your vehicle completely under control.
* If your car has an anti-lock braking system (ABS), keep your foot on the pedal. If not, pump the pedal gently, pumping more rapidly as your car slows down. Braking hard with non-anti-lock brakes will make the skid worse.

If your front wheels skid:

* Take your foot off the gas and shift to neutral, but don't try to steer immediately.
* As the wheels skid sideways, they will slow the vehicle and traction will return. As it does, steer in the direction you want to go. Then put the transmission in "drive" or release the clutch, and accelerate gently.

To avoid skids, brake carefully and gently on snow or ice. "Squeeze" your brakes in slow, steady strokes. Allow the wheels to keep rolling. If they start to lock up, ease off the brake pedal. As you slow down, you may also want to shift into a lower gear.
When sleet, freezing rain or snow start to fall, remember that bridges, ramps, and overpasses are likely to freeze first. Also be aware that slippery spots may still remain after road crews have cleared the highways.

The information above was reprinted from pages 76-78 of the New York State Department of Motor Vehicles Driver's Manual.

I'm just saying that this method has saved my bacon a few times

RCZ · 02-24-2009, 09:18 PM

BanningZ, that says "if your front wheels skid" that means understeer, thats not a slide. Thats the front of the car plowing through the turn...in that case then YES everything you said is right. A slide is usually the rear tires.

Car manufacturers make cars understeer from the factory because it is safer. It is safer because when people freak out they let off the gas and hit the brakes. That is the way to correct understeer, not oversteer.

The top part talks about oversteer and thats right, you turn into the slide. Notice that Line doesnt say jump off the gas or hit the brakes. It makes a second point to use the brakes if you have ABS. Thats not because its good to hit the brakes, its because ABS can help you a LOT to slow the car down once youve done STEP 1 which is to correct the slide.

BanningZ · 02-24-2009, 09:31 PM

I'm done. either way, Good job to all the people that posted even if there are some differing opinions

RCZ · 02-24-2009, 09:40 PM

Sorry Im just jealous you have more rep.

Namir · 02-24-2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

Lastly, I should add that this logic applies also when you have FULL grip. If you are taking a fast sweeping corner and you let off the gas abruptly or tap the brakes, it will take weight off the rear tires and therefore you will loose grip and you will spin. You may have heard about this, it is referred to as "lift throttle oversteer" It is one of the most common major mistakes that rookies make on the track. If anyone remembers the pictures of the 997 GT2 I put up a while back, the one that crashed...guess what happened...yeah. Having the weight at the rear of the porsche helps grip until you lift and lose grip, then it becomes a pendulum.

First of all, RCZ was spot on throughout this thread, thanks for the in depth response. I now need to say nothing

Second, snow (if you have it) is a great time to practice controlling oversteer situations in a MUCH easier setting, using the same principles.
Tons of fun, especially if you are rocking AWD.

Third, weight transfer can be a bitch, don't lift in highspeed corners

unless you are in formula D and your name is Tanner Foust.

chimZEE370 · 02-25-2009, 12:40 AM

I'm confuse can we lose control just with normal driving (straight ,dry road ) or when go go fast on corners? What about going through gears fast straight line? You guys are scaring me is rwd that bad ?

shumby · 02-25-2009, 01:09 AM

^^^ don't worry they are talking extreems. Cars have been RWD for years old ladies can drive them. Go out and have a little fun with it you will find the limt you get comfortable with. It is not like every turn you make your @ss end kicks out and you are in a life or death situation stariing at a cement wall or 100' cliff.

Frick@DDM · 02-25-2009, 01:11 AM

Taking your foot off the gas and pressing the brake are the worst things to do

shumby · 02-25-2009, 01:18 AM

^^^ I let go of the stearing wheel and close my eyes. they say you go where you are looking so if you look nowhere you are safe. lol

02-24-2009, 03:59 PM	#16 (permalink)
k.alexander Base Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Philadelphia, PA Age: 45 Posts: 240 Drives: 09 Nissan 370Z PG M6 Rep Power: 714	God, I just hope noone dies after reading this thread __________________ -Are you coming to bed? -I can't. This is important. -What? -Someone is WRONG on the internet.

02-24-2009, 06:39 PM	#19 (permalink)
BanningZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: nowhere Posts: 5,478 Drives: 06' Nismo Frontier Rep Power: 28	I think it also needs to be defined whether a driver is in snow or asphalt. letting off the brake and turning into the skid is correct in snow. When I think of skidding, I think of Snow but I guess it all depends on where your driving. __________________ Become a Premium Member: Click HERE MB 06' Nismo VQ40DE

02-24-2009, 09:18 PM	#23 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1118	BanningZ, that says "if your front wheels skid" that means understeer, thats not a slide. Thats the front of the car plowing through the turn...in that case then YES everything you said is right. A slide is usually the rear tires. Car manufacturers make cars understeer from the factory because it is safer. It is safer because when people freak out they let off the gas and hit the brakes. That is the way to correct understeer, not oversteer. The top part talks about oversteer and thats right, you turn into the slide. Notice that Line doesnt say jump off the gas or hit the brakes. It makes a second point to use the brakes if you have ABS. Thats not because its good to hit the brakes, its because ABS can help you a LOT to slow the car down once youve done STEP 1 which is to correct the slide. Last edited by RCZ; 02-24-2009 at 09:24 PM.

02-24-2009, 09:31 PM	#24 (permalink)
BanningZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: nowhere Posts: 5,478 Drives: 06' Nismo Frontier Rep Power: 28	I'm done. either way, Good job to all the people that posted even if there are some differing opinions __________________ Become a Premium Member: Click HERE MB 06' Nismo VQ40DE

02-25-2009, 12:40 AM	#27 (permalink)
chimZEE370 Base Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: bay area Posts: 112 Drives: 10 Nismo BS Rep Power: 16	I'm confuse can we lose control just with normal driving (straight ,dry road ) or when go go fast on corners? What about going through gears fast straight line? You guys are scaring me is rwd that bad ? __________________ z370 over here please

02-24-2009, 04:54 PM	#17 (permalink)
pagefaulted Base Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Seattle Age: 40 Posts: 30 Drives: 370z Base + Sport PG Rep Power: 16	I don't understand, are you people kicking out the rear on public roads on purpose? When I start to fishtail my natural reaction is to disengage the clutch and but not touch the brakes. You're saying this is incorrect?

02-24-2009, 07:28 PM	#20 (permalink)
mattkim85 Base Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: los angeles, ca Age: 38 Posts: 230 Drives: 09 Z34, 08 AP2 Rep Power: 16	yea my main concern is that los angeles doesnt have many rainy days but when they do the roads get really really slippery. i once accelerated on a straight road (w/ vdc on) after a light drizzle and the tail almost kicked out to the side. if i had vdc off it wouldnt have been a pretty picture im sure. So im just trying to get a little bit of knowledge of how you control RWD cars. oh and hey thanks RCZ and everyone else. im not 100% sure what you guys meant but im starting to get a picture of how to control it.

02-24-2009, 09:40 PM	#25 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1118	Sorry Im just jealous you have more rep.

02-25-2009, 01:09 AM	#28 (permalink)
shumby Captin Canuck Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: with your mom Age: 44 Posts: 6,288 Drives: your sister Rep Power: 236	^^^ don't worry they are talking extreems. Cars have been RWD for years old ladies can drive them. Go out and have a little fun with it you will find the limt you get comfortable with. It is not like every turn you make your @ss end kicks out and you are in a life or death situation stariing at a cement wall or 100' cliff. __________________ Originally Posted by SAM@GTM Engine detonation is not normal and it should never never happen, and whoever told that need to do something else for living . Sam

02-25-2009, 01:11 AM	#29 (permalink)
Frick@DDM The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: San Diego Posts: 71 Drives: Danger Ranger Rep Power: 16	Taking your foot off the gas and pressing the brake are the worst things to do

02-25-2009, 01:18 AM	#30 (permalink)
shumby Captin Canuck Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: with your mom Age: 44 Posts: 6,288 Drives: your sister Rep Power: 236	^^^ I let go of the stearing wheel and close my eyes. they say you go where you are looking so if you look nowhere you are safe. lol __________________ Originally Posted by SAM@GTM Engine detonation is not normal and it should never never happen, and whoever told that need to do something else for living . Sam