Hit the range! I've read and heard to many horror stories of the 9mm failing to get a bad guys attention when shot! Lots of police departments have ditched the 9mm, and now carry the .40 acp, or the .45acp!

How to: Grip A Pistol | GLOG!

Springfield XD :tup:
Go with a 45. :twocents:

Actually 9mm and .40 tend to over penetrate worse than 45s.
45ACP transfers most of its energy to the first "object" it hits due to its bullet size.
If it makes it though that "object" it doesn't go far.
That's why it has the reputation of being an effective "man stopper".

Even when using JHP rounds?

aren't those illegal?

EDIT: seems like just in New Jersey they are illegal for private citicens.

Florida is pretty awesome when it comes to guns. You can get a concealed weapons permit (although its a bit too easy in my opinion). We also have the "Stand Your Ground" law, which basically extends the Castle Doctrine law to wherever we are at the time if an attack takes place and we feel our lives are in danger.

The sigs are really nice however, I would get the p250 in 45.

I daily carry my Dan Wesson "Valor" 1911.

Out of the box the first grouping I did was at 25 yds and I did a 1" grouping and bout sh1t myself!!! most accurate 45 I have ever owned! This is my workhorse gun and my pride and joy! Sigs are very accurate too. If you want something crazy get a .22mag for close quarters they have just as much knock down as a 45!!! its insane! an Army buddy of mine usses it for his concealed weapon he was telling me it penatrated every soft armor vest on the market went through the ply wood dummy and ended up half way through most vests on the back side...

there is alot of advocates for one brand or another. What it comes down to is you going to the range and seeing if they have one in a rental... then shoot it and see how it fits in your hand. 9mm is great and all but when it comes to self defense I will take .45 over everything besides a desert eagle .50ae. That thing is retarded! If you dont hit the person they will be deaf after the first shot! If you ever run out of ammo you now have a freaking pistol for a baseball bat. The thing weighs like 2+lbs and your hand drops to the floor the first time you pick it up lol:bowrofl:

has anyone mentioned .357 Sig? I havent read through all these posts, but let me recommend the Smith and Wesson M&P series, there have been countless independent tests against Glock, Springfield, etc, and they have outperformed them all and they cost around the same. I have over 10,000 rounds through both my .40 and my .357 compact w/o a single jam. If you want the knockdown of a .357 in a 15 rd. magazine, you cant beat it. It has more muzzle energy than both a .45 and .40

I also have an M&P AR15. Here are a few of my collection.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g...g?t=1290003620

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g...hmidt6/022.jpg

H&K USP Tactical and yes, it has a silencer.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g.../HK_USP-CT.jpg

With today's modern rounds 9mm is fine - though .45 is better

Guns are a very personal purchase.
Most modern firearms are of high quality and reliable.

You need to buy what feels most comfortable in your hand and what you can shoot well.
If you can't hit **** with a .45 but can shoot 3 in the center with a 9mm then go with the 9mm.
If you can't shoot it well, it doesn't matter what caliber or brand it is.

my initial guess would've been to go straight for the USP 45, but i'll be damned if that thing isn't expensive...

You can find a standard USP45 for around $700, check out budsgunshop.com

I thought only rappers called magazines "clips"
Clips vs. Magazines This is a clip:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...dTjxE9dmwtPH26

This is a magazine
http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thu...azine_clip.jpg


just saying... :D

Oh please, fuck off.


just saying... :D

luv my XD40!!

Glock 17 for home duty, G19 for carry.

After all the SIG's, HK's, custom 1911's, and all the other stuff I have owned and played with, the Glock 17/19 is the pistol I would want if someone told me "I'm giving you a handgun, 10,000 rounds of ammo, and 5 magazines, and it's going to be the last one you will be able to get. No spare parts, either."

Stuff I have owned:

G19
P226 Elite ST (2, one in 9mm, one in 357SIG)
Wilson Combat Tactical Elite
Les Baer TRS
Ruger .44 SRH

Stuff my Dad/Friends have owned that I have shot extensively in addition:

G17
USPC40
USP45
G32
Colt 1911


The only 100% reliable pistols have been the P226 Elite ST in 357SIG, and the Glock 19 and 17's. The 32 snagged once or twice. The 1911's were all crap (Wilson Combat bought my Tactical Elite back), and the USP's had little bobbles as well, but could be attributed to weak mag or ejector springs as the USP45 had an unknown round-count. The only pistols I still personally own are the G19 for CCW, and the P226 Elite ST 357SIG for the range. GGI worked it over, and had a complete "Tennifer QPQ" type process done. Black stainless is sexy :) The best group out of it was a 5-shot group at 25 yards measuring 1.17CTC using 125gr Gold Dot's, fired off a sand-bag by one of the GGI crew. It replaced the Wilson Combat in my armory, is just as accurate, and holds nearly 200% as many rounds, and has NEVER had a failure to function. P226>1911 for a steel pistol.

All my pistols wear Trijicon night sights.

http://i51.tinypic.com/ndogtk.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/ra70vo.jpg

*Work done to the P226

QPQ barrel/slide/frame/some internals
Polish stock sear/hammer
Stainless QPQ guiderod
Titanium firing-pin block
Hogue G10 grips
Replace Meprolites with Trijicons
Replace stock takedown level with takedown lever from Combat model/X5 model (It's forged, and made of much tougher steel)
Replace mag-release button with slightly larger one from 4140 forged
Replace "short" trigger with regular trigger (no idea why mine shipped out with a short trigger, I was just happy to find an NIB 357 SIG P226 Elite ST that had just been made. SIG doesn't officially make them anymore, just random "batches".)
Aluminum MS seat

The 9mm P226 Elite ST I owned before this was a basket-case and felt so much worse. Nothing was done to this pistol that could account for it shooting a 1.17" CTC group--which was not abnormal for the gun, they sent me several 1.4-1.6" groups and stated thats what it did all day. The only "accuracy" work done was smoothing up the trigger pull (I had them just polish things, leave stock geometry alone).

This is THE pistol I would want it TSHTF and I was not moving around a lot. Realistically, though, my G19 would be the smarter choice, and I can put them all in a 6" group at 20 yards standing with either pistol, regardless of their "mechanical" accuracy potential. That's about all I am good for. The weight of the SIG makes popping milk-jugs at 50 yards cake, though, from seated. That 357SIG round hits hard. This individual lot# chronographed 1355 at 15' from the muzzle.

I liked my shotgun (M4 with custom titanium 7-shot mag tube, etc.) but realistically, I live in a studio appartment. The pistol under the corner of the matress made more sense for ME. For others, I am a fan of the shotgun as well. It is just simply wicked.

Here mine was with all the "go fast" goodies before I sold them to fund other things.
http://i56.tinypic.com/98bzix.jpg
Here it is in its final evolution before I sold it for a G19 w/night sights and cash.
http://i56.tinypic.com/o0wlfd.jpg

If I were to buy a long-gun for HD again, it would be an AR with a 16" barrel and a mid-length gas system from Noveske or LaRue or someone similar. Slap an ACOG with a T1 in a side-mount on it and a good light and done. 77gr OTM rounds make a HUGE mess when they fragment. Not QUITE 12ga mess, but very close.

The barrel doesn't matter as sloppy as the lock-up tolerance is in that pistol. A ten-thousandths of an inch in a barrel isn't going to matter unless the lock-up is perfect to begin with. I had a .22 rifle that was madein the 40's and it looks like the rifling was carved by a blind slave-labor child. It will still hold about 2" at 50 yards with me just leaning up against a tree. That chatter also happens to be in the last 1-3" of barrel, as well. The secret to handgun accuracy is CONSISTANT lock up at the front and back of the hood, as well as the muzzle/slide of a handgun like the XD. Slide/frame lock up is important as well, but only accounts for about 5-10% at most. However, the "M" barrel in the XDm is about like putting Penske adjustable shocks on a mid 90's ford taurus with no other modifications. It's there for marketing purposes...and mabye the .001 smaller group it can get you.

*Note, CONSISTANT lock-up is key. Not TIGHT lock-up. My Wilson Combat had a VERY well fit interface between the lugs/slide, etc. The frame/slide clearance was .002" nominal, as measured with my calipers.

My factory SIG still shot a group that was about the same size using duty ammo. (1.17CTC for the SIG at 25 yards, while the Wilson was .7" at 15 yards. The WIlson shot that group with Ranger T-series, while the SIG was fed GoldDots. bonded bullets are not normally nearly as accurate as conventional jacketed bullets due to variances in the plating/jacket thickness of the bolded bullets, making this even more impressive to me.)

Also, my Les Baer, rest it's poorly made soul, was tight as a drum, to the point where you could barely rack the slide. All this did was cause malfunctions. It didn't do a darn thing for accuracy that the WIlson couldn't match.

Yes, it made a .224" hole in and a .224" hole out.

Thanks, but I will keep my 9mm and 357SIG and if you like the .45, that's pretty cool, too. In all the penetration tests I have conducted on steel, wood, car doors, etc. the only thing that matters is kinetic energy and frontal surface area of the projectile. This has NOTHING to do with how much damage it will do to something made of flesh that is pissed off and coming after you. It's like saying "I will carry an ice-pick, me Lord! I shoved it through yonder pin 2x4 while me broadsword only sticked the point in by an inch when I thrust at it".

Exaggerated, but you see what I mean.

Also, "knockdown" power is a myth and a joke. Physics dictate that any force acted on the target will be less than that acted on the shooter. This is because of velocity lost in travel from shooter to shootee.

The ONLY thing that matters (unless you hit a CNS structure) is the time it takes to drain sufficient blood from the target to cause the target to cease functioning. Punching ice-pick holes in someone is much less effective than punching 1/2" holes in someone.

I draw the line at 9mm. There are plenty of .380-sized 9mm's that work great. There is no excuse to carry a .22 unless you are naked and conceiling it in your arse or something tripple-secret super-spy.

Fock! Who told you? :mad:


.....pulls submini-22 out of arse :(

calm down man, don't get your panties in a bunch
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...cnbFIXTCSEcdlf

LOL I did say "crazy" didnt I... I dont consider the .22mag a good self defense round at all. Also, when I was referring to knock down I am referring to the capability for a specific caliber to stop a target its not a myth and the amount of force felt by the shooter does not equal the amount of force felt by the target... that is bad physics as there is several contributing factors of why you the shooter do not feel the kick and or force of the shot... Due to the nature of the slanted slope of a bullets nose there will be an increase in the amount of pressure on that small given area. This will cause the bullet to penatrate the target better than a blunt object... Now if you use hollow points thats a whole game changer as they change shape to inflict the largest amount of dispersing energy at a given penetration depth... in other words what would have felt as a golf ball sized pain and entry wound will know feel like a softball or bigger sized pain and entry wound. A .22 will not phase someone who is pissed charging at you and a .45 will at least stop the initial charge maybe even spin the person or throw them on their butt. This is all relative to where you hit the target and the targets size/weight. Knock down power is simply the amount of Ft/Lbs the bullet carries at a given distance...

Lets take a rifle round for example...

5.56 NATO and 6.8 SPC

I have shot and tested both extensively...

5.56 Nato (Hornady 75gr Tap) *this is the best bullet to transfer the most energy*

100yds = 1090 ft-lbs
200yds = ~918 ft-lbs
300yds = 750 ft-lbs
400yds = 616 ft-lbs
500yds = 497 ft-lbs

6.8 SPC (Hornady 110gr VMax) *this is the best bullet to transfer the most energy*

100yds = 1510 ft-lbs
200yds = 1226 ft-lbs
300yds = 987 ft-lbs
400yds = 836 ft-lbs
500yds = 660 ft-lbs

As stated larger caliber bullets have a greater force at equal distance... If you need graphs I can do a comparison graph to show the difference. :tiphat:

That is a pretty Shotgun :tup:

My 2 home defense toys before I went bonkers on all the tactical gear:
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...7/DSC_4185.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...7/DSC_4190.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...7/DSC_4197.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...7/DSC_4211.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...7/DSC_4214.jpg

Nice setup! I like it. Quality tid-bits there :tiphat:

no 9 mill?



yea same
:bowrofl:




so for a 45 what should i get?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._vest_1923.jpg


YouTube - Bullet Proof vest Test

Physics cannot be denied. There will be no "throwing on the butt" by anything you can shoulder/hand-fire.

Oh, for those of you that keep screaming "stay away from the 9mm, get a .45". Well, handguns suck. Period. Just get one that shows CONSISTANT expansion and penetrates 12"+ in IWBA protocol testing. The 9mm does this just fine. I can recount many articles where the .45 when placed COM did nothing to stop the attacker. The one I would like to reference, has been removed, but some of you may recall where a police officer went to a domestic dispute armed with his .45 Glock and 3 magazines full of Gold-Dots. The perp was hit 13 times and the last shot was to the cranial vault. That was the only one that stopped him, he was putting lead (shotgun) on the cop the entire time. The officer later was incapacitated by his wounds (large bird-shot, one pellet or two managed to get into his skull and cause frontal brain-damage, as I recall).

Based on what I have learned from Dr. Gary Roberts, and what I have learned in my time working at a hospital, blood-loss is the only thing that matters. The bullet that crushes more tissue will cause more blood-loss will cause quicker incapacitation.

However, this comes at a price. The .45 is harder to fire multiple-times with accuracy. However, if you can fire it equally well as a 9mm and don't mind the capacity penalty, I argue that the .45 is indeed a better choice for SOME applications. I have found the 9mm to be better suited toward penetrating hard barriers such as wood, car doors, etc. It has more kinetic energy per frontal area in the 124 and 127gr +P and +P+ loadings than the .45.

So far, the 357SIG seems to take the cake, there, though. It is my bedside pistol, and it does nasty, nasty things--but it still sucks and I still have a spare 13 round mag loaded and ready.

Looks like someone is getting ready to fend off a Taliban invasion on his home. :rofl2: Pretty badass, but I don't really see those as being effective home defense weapons.

[IMG]http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...ider/hk006.jpg[/IMG]

Fn five-seven
 

Nothing like the FN FIVE-SEVEN That is why all Spooks carry it 2,242'/SEC

put a poll up will use results to go find a good gun

to each their own, my kimbers are the most accurate pistols but a little too big to carry. this hk i carry fits nicely right at my waist in between my pants and boxers, not as accurate but at the range were it's needed this .40 will pack a good punch!!!!!

i voted for the springfield, not that expensive, 9mm is a cheap ammo that wont take you to the bank. very rugged pistol with not alot of tlc needed. and they come in several cool color options.

i need something with little tlc?

Who carries it? The president's body-guards carry the 357SIG. The FAMS carry the 357SIG. The only people with the 5.7x28 carry it in the SBR'ed and full-auto P90 configuration where they can dump A LOT! of those little things on-target in a hurry.

as far as i know full auto is illegal

tender loving care, the springfield is a very rugged pistol as is the glock. they are ment to be used and abused dirty. eventually everything needs to be broke down and cleaned

If the weapon/triggergroup is manufactured after 1989, from what I understand, and you do not have correct paperwork, it is.

That is why I would never own a PS90/5.7x28 caliber weapon except as a toy.

Whatever you get, I think a first handgun should be 9mm. That way you will go and shoot it more as ammo is cheaper, recoil is less, etc. If you don't train with it enough to put the lead on target when it counts, caliber doesn't matter one bit.

ah
this man makeing sense

Spray and pray, baby! LOL

i see!!!!!

i shot a fully loaded thompson center fire .45 from WW II a while back, kinda cool and real expensive real fast!!!!!!!