The European ban could have been criticized but only for a day, mainly by EU leaders as I recall. The WHO followed up with the same advice within 24 hours. I suspect that was an intentionally coordinated response. And yes, the right thing to do.

But it was 2 weeks before that when Italy's cases actually started to skyrocket. I don't think he ever shut down flights from South Korea (which had more cases earlier on than Italy did) until borders were locked down completely. By March 12 when the European ban was announced, the virus was present in most countries including the USA (which still had no working testing regime).

Funny (well, not funny, but strange) thing is, Canada did not institute the same travel bans (China, Europe) until later in March when all inbound traffic was halted. Yet (touch wood, not gloating by any means) our infection and death rates seem much lower. Infection rates per capita one could attribute to a smaller percentage of the population being tested as yet here. But deaths and hospitalizations are reasonably accurate numbers on both sides. We did instigate fairly rigorous closures / distancing measures, though not the lockdowns that China had by any means.

What's the right answer? Damned if I know. We can discuss that in about 18 months. I'd sure hate to be in charge right now, though!
:tiphat:

Interesting thing, the DPA.

I'm not that familiar with what was happening down there, but up here companies were falling all over each other to volunteer to change production over to masks, respirators, gowns, face shields. As soon as bars closed down, breweries from micro to some of the nations largest realized that they could keep people on by switching to hand sanitizer, and they did. Car parts makers, recognizing shut-downs would disrupt the supply chain greatly but mass layoffs would cause havoc on the other end of this, switched to making medical devices. Not saying they were efficient at it, but they saw an opportunity to keep people working and do their bit. No legislation required.

It did not hurt that the federal government offered to subsidize payrolls (up to 75% for any size company that could show a covid-related 30%+ drop in revenue from the month a year ago (or the month prior in the case of start-ups or fast growing companies). But that offer came after some big players had already announced they were pivoting for the greater good.

Don't know about you but if I have to go into hospital, I want my respirator to have this logo! :-)

https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/di...40682270ab.jpg

Are Canucks healthier overall than us Americans? Ie, fewer preexisting conditions per capita. Less chronic stress, heart disease, obesity etc? Better access to healthcare (just stepped on a land mine with that one :icon23:).

Maybe I should just start ending my sentences with eh, and increase my daily dose of maple syrup. :tup:

[QUOTE=ZCanadian;3927284]Interesting thing, the DPA.

I'm not that familiar with what was happening down there, but up here companies were falling all over each other to volunteer to change production over to masks, respirators, gowns, face shields. As soon as bars closed down, breweries from micro to some of the nations largest realized that they could keep people on by switching to hand sanitizer, and they did. Car parts makers, recognizing shut-downs would disrupt the supply chain greatly but mass layoffs would cause havoc on the other end of this, switched to making medical devices. Not saying they were efficient at it, but they saw an opportunity to keep people working and do their bit. No legislation required.

It did not hurt that the federal government offered to subsidize payrolls (up to 75% for any size company that could show a covid-related 30%+ drop in revenue from the month a year ago (or the month prior in the case of start-ups or fast growing companies). But that offer came after some big players had already announced they were pivoting for the greater good.

Don't know about you but if I have to go into hospital, I want my respirator to have this logo! :-)



It probably has at least something to do with our American mentality vis-à-vis free market capitalism. Our companies and our govt place the highest premium on shareholder value as defined in 3 month increments. Nothing else matters. Greater good is laughable in this context, if I can’t make profit, then I won’t do it. You don’t see this at the small and mid sized company level but at the big publicly traded Corps, that’s def true. The dpa exists so our representative govt has the ability to temporarily supersede free market so we can get made what needs making in a time of unprecedented national emergency.

Of course, if deep down you believe this mostly much ado about nothing and a political football more than a crisis....

(As stated earlier, all crisis are politicized, hell even WWII was to an extent, at least at first). That still doesn’t not make it a legit crisis.

Couldn't hurt, EH?
:tiphat:

Health care access for sure. The rest, not as much as we'd like to believe up here, if I'm being honest. Especially not in our indigenous population.

It could be that certain ethnic groups that feature more predominantly in the US are more susceptible, or perhaps just that that their poor outcomes are related to other socio-economic factors. Really hard to say. Certainly, population density appears to be a factor with this disease, but we have a few large metropolitan areas (of a million or more, densely packed), and a large Chinese diaspora in Vancouver (and Toronto) as well as a major student population from there, many of whom travel home for things like our Christmas break or their Lunar New Year. Also, we have a large Iranian community (most of the people on that downed airliner were headed to Canada), and Iran was the second nation to be hard hit in this crisis.

And I'm not saying that we are immune or not going to feel the effects - just that our failure to stop inbound flights or screen incoming passengers did not seem to cost as many lives as one might have imagined. Merely an observation.

Someone pointed out that the common cold is a coronavirus. That is true to some extent, some common colds are caused by one of the coronavirus family, but most are caused by the family of rhinovirus.

Covid-19 is caused by SARS-COV-2, which is just as if not more infectious and far more deadly - it’s mortality rate as yet known is much higher than influenza.

Just imagine if we were all allowed to just go on as normal, you caught it and then infected a loved one who then died as a result. How would you feel? I said to someone on another forum who was bleating that he couldn’t go to the pub. Imagine he did, took it home and killed his whole family - it’s pretty selfish and ignorant to think the health and medical experts are wrong.


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I don’t think at this point you can pinpoint a particular racial or ethnic group and say the virus is more deadly or serious simply based on that, it’s very hard to separate poor health outcomes based on race or ethnicity while controlling for poor socioeconomic issues which disproportionately affect certain groups. These groups also tend to be clustered in population dense areas where transmission is easier.

Eh?

Stupid rhinos. :shakes head:

US numbers are crazy - U.S. 41,379 dead 776,513 total cases
All in a few weeks. I want no part of such a mess to catch this virus or give to others. None

The race thing has already been debunked by the level of infection in Middle East and Europe. Here is the sad part. How many TRUE cases are there in countries that are not developed or we are not talking about. There's been a lot of cover ups by many countries, some are worse than others. The lying is another reason why we are getting f-ed over.

Keep in mind that US numbers have been questioned as well. And with only a little over 1% of the population having been tested, the true picture is not yet known.

Our numbers are not any clearer here. Many locations including Canada are testing largely on suspicion (for diagnosis), not the general population. Only small countries and the very rich (Gulf States) have tested better than 10% of their people.

In Italy, between the chaos and the fact that anyone not confirmed as Coronavirus positive before death did not make the count, has lead some health officials to suggest that the final death toll could be 4x the current count. Let me just repeat that - there might have been upwards of 4,000 people a day dying of this in Italy at the peak.

The biggest takeaway from up here is to protect your most vulnerable. Race is likely not (directly) a factor, but age and prior health appear to be. Lock down your nursing homes, lobby that their staff do not also work at multiple homes or hospitals, and isolate your vulnerable loved ones. These are the dry tinder stoking this fire, that even social distancing cannot help.

Oh yeah, I am not saying the general rate. I am simply saying the virus is not racist, it will hit every human. The older male demo do seem to be hit the hardest, so boomers, watch out.

The nursing part is sad. My boss' mom is in assisted living, which is close to a nursing home. I asked if they were put in a lockdown, she said you just have to sign a waiver to check her in and out. I am like what if my boss was a carrier and she gave it to her mom. Her mom can wipe the entire population out! Do they not know you can be a carrier without symptoms.
It's bizarre.

My father is in a home, in his 90's with Parkinson's. I live that fear.

They locked down 3+ weeks ago (and screened for a couple of weeks before that, but the screening was not useful). And the government has changed rules so that the staff cannot move from home to home anymore. As we haven't seen the surge in hospitalizations expected (yet), they have diverted medical staff to help at homes (as where you are, elective surgeries have been cancelled, freeing up nurses).

So far no cases in his nursing home, but 29 others in my province do, with lots of dead. Still, the management has sent a letter home that basically says "prepare for the worst". Treatment of the elderly and frail is not effective, and hospitals have said that they will refuse nursing home transfers if they are under strain. So far, that hasn't happened here either. Fingers crossed.

Tell you what happened in the nursing homes, and why they get hit so hard. Family member comes into a nursing home with the virus before SHTF. Infects family member in the home. They get sick and the nursing home sending them to the hospital. Hospital keeps them for a few days and ships them back to the nursing home. Now the whole nursing home is infected. This happened at the nursing home that my sister inlaw works at.

Look at it this way. Mother nature doing some house cleaning. Darwinism at work. Thinning out the heard. Don't care on what side the fence you sit on politically. This virus is taking lives. How many, who knows. Won't find out for at least 2 years after most of the studies are done. We really don't know if this virus is any worse then other ones. It's to early to tell. Do know that some ARE trying to taken advantage of this.

I can see why people are up in arms over the lock down. In my county. We have 66 cases, and 3 deaths. Only a handful of business are open. People are laid off and are about to lose they homes. I be up set too. If you never been close to losing you home. STFU! My neighbor to the right of me. School teacher, wife is a nurse. Neither have worked since this started. Plus they have 3 girls in college. Neighbor to the left. Works in the steel mill. Working 3 days a week now. Wife's hours cut back to 18 hrs a week. 2 kids in college. The boy broke his collar bone Saturday. There people are fvcking worried if they will have a home in June.

This is what I worry so much about. Lives are being ruined by financial demise. It's time to go back to work and let the cards fall where they may. People are going to die but the other result is way way worse.

What I think is amazing is that there are around 3 million grocery store workers and only 40 deaths and 1500 infected. I would have thought they would have been the hardest hit with their exposure to the general public.

I agree.

Before anyone else chims in. If you ain't losing your house or close to it. SHFU! You have no clue. People WANT to go back to work. LET them. Barrel of oil hit 1 cent for a barrel of West Texas crude today. Do any of you know how people just lost their jobs over that? It's going to take years, if not decades to get back where we was.

If you guys want to see what the Great Depression was like you may get that chance. If we don't go back to work, that will be what happens is my guess. It will make the downward turn in 2008-2009 look like a walk in the park.

You cant say that without explaining what would happen after 5% of the population get sick. Restaurants will Slowly close down, factories will close. You get a month worth of extra pay and then you have to shut down? You could argue we can do it like Taiwan and Korea where people work with gloves and masks, except China took all the supplies and we outsourced everything.

I am supporting my laid off parents and paying my nanny, so yes I am getting dragged into it too.

I was in HR/Payroll in my previous role. If your company isn't a cash rich corporation, 5% of your workforce calling out sick will pretty much force you to close the company. Remember most insurance require the employer to pay for some days before STD kicks in. Since the virus has a Ro rate of higher than 1, the more employees you have infected, the more they spread to other employees. You are going to run out of money from just sick pays alone. God forbid they file a lawsuit against for wrongful death, you are going to be f-ed.

What are you going to do when you can't do that? When you get to that point, you will change your tune.

Better yet, when you get to the point that you can't afford food. Your kids are hungry and crying. The virus won't matter, you will just want to go back to work. That is where we are headed.

We are caught between a rock and a hard place

No modern society is close to that reality. Africa yes. Europe, Asia and US not close. 2 more weeks etc of lock down would not and will not end the world. From the things i read most people in major countries respect and support social distancing and closure to gain control of the pandemic.

When your child gains the virus and dies when its preventable than you might think differently. Science is the answer to this situation not politics. Read the history of 1918 pandemic. The answers and techniques used worked and do today. Its science not fear mongering.

Yes we are.

If you are working and have money coming in and have health insurance. good for you. I'm looking at my neighbors with no income, no health insurance, about ready to lose their homes. If they lose their homes. Can they move in with you guys? You are going to see a massive amount of personal bankruptcies in the coming months. Things go on into June. You will see robberies sky rocket. People torching their cars for insurance money. This will be a repeat of the early 1980''s when the steel mills and coal mines closed up here.

I am going to ignore unemployment and other safety net. I am going to ask you this.

How many people who wants to work will have a job to go back to even if we didn't go into shelter in place? Disneyland employees? Film Production Crews? Furniture Stores? Casino workers? NBA games? You don't think guests will stop going at some point after 5% of the population is taken out by the virus? Some thinks the problem is as easy as eliminating grandma, grandpa, healthcare workers and the other sick people, but economics is more complex than that. If you are going to send people to their graves, at least make their death worth while.

Also do you get unemployment if you get reduced hours instead of full furlough?

If they paid their taxes, they get 40-50% pay + $600 a week. For folks making less than $20 an hour, they are going to pretty much get equal pay.

Did German go into shelter in place? I believe they did? I think you guys have enough test kits and medical equipment to start opening back up right?

I personally have no problem extending this stay-at-home thing, but I also know it’s causing permanent financial damages to many other less fortunate families. A balance has to be achieved no doubt. Where that balance is? Hard to tell...sigh

The quicker we get to everybody wearing face coverings, the faster we can slow this bleeding and gradually opening the economy back up. But we still need to prepare for when covid19 numbers spiking back up after reopening. Hopefully it doesn’t tick up so much that we need another round of stay-at-home.

When the order is lifted, I imagine it’ll still be a very long time before retail and some service industries will get back to normal. Smaller fishes are getting killed much faster than bigger fishes.

For some, the tipping point is a 2 weeks ago, while others are just enjoying the vacation.

We may need to monitor numbers of home invasion or burglary type of crimes.

Saw a thread about track day reopening. Don’t want turn that into covid opinion so I’ll do it here.

I actually think it’s crucial for some of these activities to open back up sooner than later.

For track days, maybe limit only to advanced run group, so no baby sitting is required, no classroom instructions needed....nobody needs close contacts with others.

May even help with oil price (tongue and cheek).

Help money flow from the ones that can spare, to those that really need it.

Not for contract workers. They get nothing. No unemployment or the $600 a week. Wife's sister and husband are in this boat. They have their shoes off plugging holes best they can. Daughter get's $75 a week for unemployment. She is also a college student. So much for the car payment. Not happening. If I was to go on unemployment that would be a joke. Not even close to paying half of my bills. Most professional folks would fall into this category.

You might want to check, CARES act specifically says that contract workers are included

https://ogletree.com/insights/the-ca...d-gig-workers/

If in an emergency, you can borrow or loan from your 401K without penalty as the last resort.

Contract workers are absolutely included :twocents:

A number of us have started questioning the official figures being published by individual countries and I have to agree somewhat.

Believe it or not the US has probably published the most accurate if a 4.5% mortality rate is to be believed. They are currently hovering around 5%

Sweden who a lot are banging on in Europe about having no lockdown is over 10% mortality

UK is around 13%

Italy around 20%

So what is actually right? We know the tests aren’t that accurate and having too many false positives and false negatives. Are they just attributing deaths to Covid-19 without testing them, because patients have shown some symptoms that could be attributed to something else?


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Mortality rates are exaggerated due to the unknown number of infected persons. There are no accurate mortality rates yet, and there won't be any until we start testing people that are asymptomatic en masse.

I can't wait for the anti body test. We can find out that most tradesmen where asymptomatic and had been out spreading it around unchecked since this all started

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This. I do not doubt for a moment that you are correct. Like I said yesterday, this heralds unprecedented economic collapse. It's madness that it's gone so quickly from normalcy to this state, and shows the fragility of the system to which we belong.

LOL, do you think for one minute that folks who struggle from paycheck to paycheck have a 401k? If you can't file for unemployment, how are you going to collect the Cares act money?

Everybody looks back at the Spanish Flue outbreak for comparison in 1917. Do you remember what came next in the 1920's? It was the Great Depression.

Yup after that World War 1 and 2.

If indeed the Chinese created this virus out of a laboratory somewhere in the US.
Do you think you would still need your guns?

Its gonna be a war of push buttons starts!! Let the race begins in the skyies

Bam!!! Fell off the chair!


Thank goodness It was all a bad dream and woke up..While I had a sudden snoozee with eyes open while my boss is preaching!