Fighting my Speeding Ticket

Davey · 05-23-2015, 09:19 AM

I understand the concept of 5 and 6-lane highways with 55 mph speed limits all too well, but I find it very difficult, if not impossible, to believe that setting the speed limit *lower* than the speed limit determined by a traffic study would make the road less safe.

Isn't the purpose of such a study to determine the maximum safe speed?

How does decreasing the speed limit decrease safety?

Honest question, but feel free to call me a "trolltard" or whatever if it helps you get your point across.

dP3NGU1N · 05-23-2015, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davey

I understand the concept of 5 and 6-lane highways with 55 mph speed limits all too well, but I find it very difficult, if not impossible, to believe that setting the speed limit *lower* than the speed limit determined by a traffic study would make the road less safe.

Isn't the purpose of such a study to determine the maximum safe speed?

How does decreasing the speed limit decrease safety?

Honest question, but feel free to call me a "trolltard" or whatever if it helps you get your point across.

Hey now. I've met every serious question here with respect and have done my best to answer the questions to the best of my knowledge. Clowns like leroy (seriously man, less drugs...) and kuru, who continues to basically suggest that tickets are unwinnable and judges will ignore your pleas if you argue the law just because it's you against a cop, are the issue. And even with kuru, up until the point he snapped I basically addressed all his concerns, even going so far as to pull out recently beaten tickets, from people I know, to show him that it is indeed possible.

Ok anyway, that doesn't answer your question. The problem is a variety of factors that create an unsafe situation:

There will always be those who strictly follow the speed limit; grandmas and Priuses basically.
Studies have shown that almost all drivers will drive at the speed that they feel COMFORTABLE in. Speed limit increases and decreases have little to NO effect on the overall flow of traffic.
Comfort level here is not really a conscious decision. For example, people will not be taking corners at break neck speeds because most people don't like the feeling of g forces on their body - not comfortable. Please don't misconstrue this portion as everyone driving like a maniac, assume a reasonable human being (oxymoron, I know.)
Now, here's the important bit. When you mix people who strictly follow the speed limit and people who are driving considerably faster because they feel it is safe, you start getting more car accidents. Several factors cause this
- Unpredictable driving behaviour from the person following the speed limit such as braking unnecessarily in order to continue to comply to traffic laws.
- Comfortable driver getting frustrated by lawful driver and trying to get around them to resume comfortable speed
- increased overall frustration with the world? Ok I made that one up

That's just a general list of things, don't take that as the ONLY factor but here's a source just so you know I'm not making this stuff up:

Effects of Raising and Lowering Speed Limits

That is an official study done by the DOT (department of transportation) by the way. They know the effects of a speed limit.

Also, artificially lowering the speed limit is a more recent phenomena. The other issue is that our traffic speed has been around for ages and simply haven't been updated for modern road cars. Some since the 1950s. Do you know how slow cars were in the 1950s? I traffic survey from then would likely recommend the speed we have now because that's really all cars could do.

JARblue · 05-23-2015, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davey

I understand the concept of 5 and 6-lane highways with 55 mph speed limits all too well, but I find it very difficult, if not impossible, to believe that setting the speed limit *lower* than the speed limit determined by a traffic study would make the road less safe.

That was the fight 40 years ago when they managed to get rid of the nationally set 55 mph highway speed.

Traffic engineers understand this stuff. Virtually no one else does. I have a very minor understanding of some of the principles because my father practiced traffic engineering for many years when I was a child. They still don't make a whole lot of sense to me lol

But I know what you mean. Lowering the speed limit 5-10 mph below what the study finds to be the safest speed is not significantly altering the overall safety of the roadway. The problem I have is letting them get away with it at all. It's the principle. Municipalities shouldn't be taking advantage of their power to increase revenue at the expense of the public they are supposedly serving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davey

Isn't the purpose of such a study to determine the maximum safe speed?

It's not about a maximum speed. The studies are designed to determine the safest speed for the traffic and conditions on that particular road. As has been mentioned, people are generally going to drive the speed they are comfortable driving given the conditions. Regardless of the posted speed limit. So the study is really about finding that sweet spot where the range of speed across the grandmas, normal drivers, and speed demons is the narrowest. That's what the speed limit should be set at. Some jackoff at the city council who thinks it's too fast should not be able to change it; nor should the police dept or other AHJ be able to influence a municipality to change it.

And for my final point ... you're a trolltard!

Leroydsouza · 05-23-2015, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dP3NGU1N

Clowns like leroy (seriously man, less drugs...) and kuru, who continues to basically suggest that tickets are unwinnable and judges will ignore your pleas if you argue the law just because it's you against a cop, are the issue.

OK ill explain things to you, you clearly havent thought of. You probably are high, If you read what i wrote You would clearly understand i am not talking about you fighting that ticket because you are so much of a miser.
Firstly unwinnable ? Who said that ? I dont need to win or lose fines, No thank you. I accept my speeding and all fines when i am in the wrong.

Ill paint you a scenario, Try to keep up.
You were speeding, You get caught, You fight it and you get away with it.
Another person sees you as an example and carries this on. Now everyone is doing it because you can fight it. Merica.
Speed limit here is considerably higher than America. However i feel that this speed limit is not justified and it should be higher.
We are humans, We are just not satisfied. I dont really have any dog in this fight because we dont exactly fight fines. Spend time running around for a few measly bucks because you feel that the fine is not justified according to you and your studies.

You really want to change those speed limits ? Instead of acting like a child and being a rebel about it, How about you gather a few people who think like you and like a civil human approach this as a mass issue.
No you wont, You would rather get a speeding ticket, waste your time running around and be glad you won a pathetic little case . You think your few hundred dollars is going to hurt the government ? You are nothing but a rebel. I admit to being a rebel, I am probably even addicted to breaking rules, But i dont sit and whine about it saying its unfair for me to be accused for this because i read it in a study somewhere.

Americans claim 'Freedom' everywhere they go.. How is it that you have not managed to change the speed limits ? Probably because instead of doing something about it, You sit and fight those shitty tickets and consider it a victory that you got away without paying for it

I dont have anything against you, Or well americans, But that concept of taking everything to court even though you know full well that you were doing 60 in a 55 road is just pathetic.
Probably same concept used by people who commit serious crimes and they walk.

Grow up and accept your mistakes
Or if you really want to enforce change, Do it like an adult, Not by getting a ticket and running to fight it.

I am done with you, Because I know the kind of person you are, You are basically just a rebel like me, Fortunately for me, I just dont whine at **** i have done.

Cheers

dP3NGU1N · 05-23-2015, 12:58 PM

Ok, so some actual complete sentences from you. Now we can have a dialogue. Unfortunately you've vomited so much nonsense that I'm going to have to respond to you like I did with the other one. Let's get started....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leroydsouza

OK ill explain things to you, you clearly havent thought of. You probably are high, If you read what i wrote You would clearly understand i am not talking about you fighting that ticket because you are so much of a miser.
Firstly unwinnable ? Who said that ? I dont need to win or lose fines, No thank you. I accept my speeding and all fines when i am in the wrong.

Wasn't even describing you with that statement. Read it again. I was referring to kuru, who DID say that. Infact, his whole argument lay in the idea that judges won't take your case seriously. As far as accepting your fines, that's all well and good for some rich son of an oil shaw who doesn't even make his own money. Oh wait, am I generalizing here? But I guess if we're going to make stupid generalizations about everyone, turnabout is fair play.

Ill paint you a scenario, Try to keep up.
You were speeding, You get caught, You fight it and you get away with it.
Go on...
Another person sees you as an example and carries this on. Now everyone is doing it because you can fight it. Merica.
Ok....
Speed limit here is considerably higher than America. However i feel that this speed limit is not justified and it should be higher.
Still onboard....
We are humans, We are just not satisfied.
I guess I can agree with this...
I dont really have any dog in this fight because we dont exactly fight fines.
Ok, what are you trying to say here?
Spend time running around for a few measly bucks because you feel that the fine is not justified according to you and your studies.
*Insert seal clubbing rich father joke here*

You really want to change those speed limits ? Instead of acting like a child and being a rebel about it, How about you gather a few people who think like you and like a civil human approach this as a mass issue.
No you wont, You would rather get a speeding ticket, waste your time running around and be glad you won a pathetic little case . You think your few hundred dollars is going to hurt the government ? You are nothing but a rebel. I admit to being a rebel, I am probably even addicted to breaking rules, But i dont sit and whine about it saying its unfair for me to be accused for this because i read it in a study somewhere.
Soo.... your problem with me is that you perceive me as whiny. I guess so? I mean if you consider anyone who tries to make a point with arguments and facts as a whiner I suppose you're right. It's not like my claims are as baseless as yours so I don't see how you can get away with whining online and yet have the gall to to accuse someone else of the exact same thing. If only your brains were as big as your bollocks you might see the irony of this situation.

As far as calling me a rebel is concerned... I don't know if that is supposed to be a compliment or an insult. Sometimes you use it in the context of an insult ("you're nothing but a rebel") and then you back pedal and say you're a rebel as well. And then your main complaint is that I'm a whiner. Listen, buddy, get your argument straight. At this point it sounds like YOU don't even know what you're angry about. And that just makes me laugh.

Americans claim 'Freedom' everywhere they go.. How is it that you have not managed to change the speed limits ? Probably because instead of doing something about it, You sit and fight those shitty tickets and consider it a victory that you got away without paying for it

So here we get into the very difficult notion of international politics. I'm assuming you're from the UAE. Now if we go off everything the american media tells me about the UAE, it's 99% **** hole with a 1% rich population of oil magnates, corrupt politicians, and overall basic b!tches who are crying about the lowered cost of crude. I don't know what they say about Americans over there but I'm sure none of its good, so let me enlighten you - the politicians here are about as corrupt as over there but in a slightly different way. Let's not get into specifics; the bottom line is that it's very hard to change policy because precedent is a huge factor in law making in the US. It's not as simple as getting "like minded" individuals to petition - their voices will never be heard. What the government will hear is the sound of money flowing from their pockets.

Now you think that a few people fighting and winning their tickets doesn't make a difference. What about hundreds? What about thousands? Each of those tickets costs money to write, and money to prosecute. If we have thousands in each city fighting their tickets, or just going to court, the system will lock up, the city will lose money. And THAT will actually facilitate change. I'm not saying it's a perfect plan, but it's better than standing outside city hall with a cardboard sign - THAT would be sitting and whining.

I dont have anything against you, Or well americans, But that concept of taking everything to court even though you know full well that you were doing 60 in a 55 road is just pathetic.
There are a lot of people sueing each other in the US, I'll grant you that. However, traffic court is a bit different from that. This isn't suing anyone - this is arguing your case to a judge of a wrongful accusation. If you read anything that I posted before these little verbal skirmishes broke out, you would know what I'm talking about. In case you're too lazy to have your servant hit the back button, here it is in short:

CVC22350 has nothing to do with the speed limit.

Probably same concept used by people who commit serious crimes and they walk.
You mean like gang rape little girls? I hear that's rather common in the UAE... oh wait, generalizing again. We call your argument a slippery slope argument. It doesn't hold any water, but it makes people afraid. They used that for ages to argue against gay marriage. The argument went like this:

If we allow two men to get married what's next? Can a man marry his goat or dog or pig?

Your argument makes just about as much sense (which is to say, ZERO).

Grow up and accept your mistakes
Or if you really want to enforce change, Do it like an adult, Not by getting a ticket and running to fight it.
One, going to court and arguing a case, that's what adults do. Bending over and sucking **** by paying the fine outright - just ask a priest what a boy does.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that I go out of my way to get tickets. In no way is that the case. I don't try to get tickets. I haven't gotten a ticket in almost a 6 years now (not since college, which is why I'm helping the college students fight tickets). Because a couple hundred dollars to a college student is a big deal. Higher education isn't paid for by the government like it is in many other countries. $300 is the difference between eating and starving here. Students already go into crushing debt to get an education they don't know will pan out. So shove your self righteous rich prick attitude of "just a few hundred dollars" up your arse. I'm sure if it will fit your head, it'll fit that too.

I am done with you, Because I know the kind of person you are, You are basically just a rebel like me, Fortunately for me, I just dont whine at **** i have done.
You have no idea what kind of person I am. Just like I don't know who you are. Don't pretend like you do. Makes you sound whiny. =P

Cheers
Cheers!

I'm not going to fault this clown for his english because it's obviously a second language. And anyone who's learned a second language knows that it's a pain in the *** to make a proper argument in said language. So "a" for "affort".

BY THE WAY: Mods, please don't close this thread! I'm having so much fun here. =) Serious statement.

Leroydsouza · 05-23-2015, 01:03 PM

Thanks

I expected nothing less from you.

kuruzero · 05-23-2015, 01:21 PM

Me a clown? lol. if you knew my background on this topic that'd be laughable. Ive forgotten more about this exact topic and legal statistics, procedures, theory, etc than you could ever "reword" from your google searches .... I never said contesting tickets is unwinnable hence the repeated word "rarely". I gave statistical likelihoods. An issue isnt determined by its extreme outcomes so posting 2 pics does nothing to change the fact that for every 2 that get out free of charge when they were in fact speeding, thousands do not. I dont think that can really be argued so I dont really understand which part of what Im saying you disagree with. Unless theres some place in the US in which high % of people caught speeding contest it and get out of it through a document they found on a free website...

And to those citing studies, it simply doesnt mean much. Studies, even federal ones, dont determine law in this country. Not that the studies arent good info, theyre just not limiting on the lawmakers and get ignored all the time. Studies show all kinds of things and even gov studies can include bias. Is it you want to live life by the gov study bc you feel its just or does the study just go along with your side of the topic so you use it? I guarantee I can find studies from the exact same entities that you dont want to follow...

If you want to change the law, whining about this or that study and calling it bogus for a law enforcer to... enforce the law wont do it. The gov is using this as a way to make money... UMMM yeh and? This is the world we live in. Good luck with avoiding money making "scams" being forced upon you. Id posit that most decisions are made by mostly financial considerations regardless of entity, even your church...

kuruzero · 05-23-2015, 01:21 PM

.

kuruzero · 05-23-2015, 02:24 PM

Cant lie this forum makes me smile lol. Much better than the other car/bike forums I was on. Some amazing builds and such lively people lol. Now if only there were more FI options for these cars...

Davey · 05-23-2015, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JARblue

That was the fight 40 years ago when they managed to get rid of the nationally set 55 mph highway speed.

And I cannot understand why our loop is still 55 mph. You would practically be run off the road for going 55 mph, even in the rightmost lane. If you are in the left lane and not doing at least 70, people become fairly hostile.

Quote:

Traffic engineers understand this stuff. Virtually no one else does. I have a very minor understanding of some of the principles because my father practiced traffic engineering for many years when I was a child. They still don't make a whole lot of sense to me lol

But I know what you mean. Lowering the speed limit 5-10 mph below what the study finds to be the safest speed is not significantly altering the overall safety of the roadway. The problem I have is letting them get away with it at all. It's the principle. Municipalities shouldn't be taking advantage of their power to increase revenue at the expense of the public they are supposedly serving.

It's not about a maximum speed. The studies are designed to determine the safest speed for the traffic and conditions on that particular road. As has been mentioned, people are generally going to drive the speed they are comfortable driving given the conditions. Regardless of the posted speed limit. So the study is really about finding that sweet spot where the range of speed across the grandmas, normal drivers, and speed demons is the narrowest. That's what the speed limit should be set at. Some jackoff at the city council who thinks it's too fast should not be able to change it; nor should the police dept or other AHJ be able to influence a municipality to change it.

And for my final point ... you're a trolltard!

Based on this explanation and dP3NGU1N's I see what you guys are saying.

If the road is comfortable doing 75 - 80 mph (which, our 4 - 6 lane loop sure is, though it's posted 55 mph) then you have some people going 80 mph, and some people going 55 mph, and that's worse than if they just let everyone go 80 mph.

Also on the topic of cell phones and driving as it was brought up - I do not drive distracted, as much as humanly possible. While it may not be illegal to eat and drive or put on makeup and drive, you are still just as much of an ******* as the guy weaving around because he's text messaging and driving or camping in the left lane yakking away on the phone while obliviously pacing the car in the center lane while traffic piles up behind you.

FPenvy · 05-26-2015, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dP3NGU1N

SPEAK OF THE DEVIL!

Why Doesn’t The U.S. Have An Annual Car Safety Inspection?

im confused because in PA we have yearly inspection and emissions testing.

SouthArk370Z · 05-26-2015, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPenvy

im confused because in PA we have yearly inspection and emissions testing.

State inspections, when done at all, are not very tough - brakes work, horn honks, lights light, &c). Think pre-employment physical at McDonalds.

Inspections done in JP and EU also check for corrosion and a lot of other stuff. More like a pre-employment physical to be an astronaut.

FPenvy · 05-26-2015, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthArk370Z

State inspections, when done at all, are not very tough - brakes work, horn honks, lights light, &c). Think pre-employment physical at McDonalds.

Inspections done in JP and EU also check for corrosion and a lot of other stuff. More like a pre-employment physical to be an astronaut.

I will agree except most places here are pretty strict unless you know people. PA has some stupid vehicle laws lol

Davey · 05-26-2015, 10:29 AM

I saw some idiot with a bumper made out of a 2x6. Constantly see cars that really should not be driven on a public road at all let alone going 70+ MPH when I'm on my way to work, with broken shocks/struts/springs or terrible alignment/bushings etc.

I wish we had inspection here at all, even the McDonalds pre-employment physical variety.

dP3NGU1N · 05-26-2015, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPenvy

im confused because in PA we have yearly inspection and emissions testing.

Of course generalizations always have exceptions. I meant it in the sense that it's not required federally so that all territories require an annual check. It's optional by state or county depending on their regulations. I live in Cali so I can only speak to the cars here, which only need smog checks after they're older than 5 years. Brake lines leaking? No body cares. Except the person in front of you next time you step on the loud pedal.

However, I recall, when living in London, that you needed one every year and it was fairly extensive. I wasn't old enough to drive at the time so I didn't pay it much mind, but it definitely stood out.

05-23-2015, 01:03 PM	#81 (permalink)
Leroydsouza Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Dubai Posts: 265 Drives: Nissan 370z 2014 Rep Power: 12	Thanks I expected nothing less from you. dP3NGU1N likes this. __________________ 370z 2014 7AT \|Carbon Signal - GT Edition\|

05-23-2015, 01:21 PM	#83 (permalink)
kuruzero Base Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Here and There Posts: 30 Drives: 14 370z Nismo Rep Power: 10	. Last edited by kuruzero; 05-23-2015 at 01:25 PM.

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05-23-2015, 09:19 AM	#76 (permalink)
Davey A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Indiana Posts: 3,766 Drives: '15 NISMO 6MT Rep Power: 117171	I understand the concept of 5 and 6-lane highways with 55 mph speed limits all too well, but I find it very difficult, if not impossible, to believe that setting the speed limit lower than the speed limit determined by a traffic study would make the road less safe. Isn't the purpose of such a study to determine the maximum safe speed? How does decreasing the speed limit decrease safety? Honest question, but feel free to call me a "trolltard" or whatever if it helps you get your point across.

05-23-2015, 01:21 PM	#82 (permalink)
kuruzero Base Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Here and There Posts: 30 Drives: 14 370z Nismo Rep Power: 10	Me a clown? lol. if you knew my background on this topic that'd be laughable. Ive forgotten more about this exact topic and legal statistics, procedures, theory, etc than you could ever "reword" from your google searches .... I never said contesting tickets is unwinnable hence the repeated word "rarely". I gave statistical likelihoods. An issue isnt determined by its extreme outcomes so posting 2 pics does nothing to change the fact that for every 2 that get out free of charge when they were in fact speeding, thousands do not. I dont think that can really be argued so I dont really understand which part of what Im saying you disagree with. Unless theres some place in the US in which high % of people caught speeding contest it and get out of it through a document they found on a free website... And to those citing studies, it simply doesnt mean much. Studies, even federal ones, dont determine law in this country. Not that the studies arent good info, theyre just not limiting on the lawmakers and get ignored all the time. Studies show all kinds of things and even gov studies can include bias. Is it you want to live life by the gov study bc you feel its just or does the study just go along with your side of the topic so you use it? I guarantee I can find studies from the exact same entities that you dont want to follow... If you want to change the law, whining about this or that study and calling it bogus for a law enforcer to... enforce the law wont do it. The gov is using this as a way to make money... UMMM yeh and? This is the world we live in. Good luck with avoiding money making "scams" being forced upon you. Id posit that most decisions are made by mostly financial considerations regardless of entity, even your church...

05-23-2015, 02:24 PM	#84 (permalink)
kuruzero Base Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Here and There Posts: 30 Drives: 14 370z Nismo Rep Power: 10	Cant lie this forum makes me smile lol. Much better than the other car/bike forums I was on. Some amazing builds and such lively people lol. Now if only there were more FI options for these cars...

05-26-2015, 10:29 AM	#89 (permalink)
Davey A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Indiana Posts: 3,766 Drives: '15 NISMO 6MT Rep Power: 117171	I saw some idiot with a bumper made out of a 2x6. Constantly see cars that really should not be driven on a public road at all let alone going 70+ MPH when I'm on my way to work, with broken shocks/struts/springs or terrible alignment/bushings etc. I wish we had inspection here at all, even the McDonalds pre-employment physical variety.