I can assure you i'm not trying to annoy the OP.

It sounds like he's already annoyed at not getting what he was hoping for and i agree with you, i don't think it could have gone any better than it did.
However, as i pointed out, he's complaining over a few HP at the top end and yet he already admitted the base tune wasn't very well because he altered a major intake part without changing the tune just weeks before this.

It was already stated that these are both open exhausts, they're isn't going to much much in the performance of a completely open system, it's going to be down to sound, quality and looks, which he's happy with.

I do like Motordyne products, but i can't defend something based purely on that. I, like everyone else, can read what's been posted, i was just pointing out an inconsistency of the same level it's being complained about for the power. He seems quite upset that it's the same power as before, with a smoother curve and better sound, not to mention if it was tuned again with spark advance, he could get more power.

But like i said, he still seems quite upset over it all, i'm just pointing out he shouldn't be so, when he didn't do the fullest possible in the circumstances.

No, i was pointing out that if he's wanting to show changes of a few ponies, then everything would need to be perfect. The intake was changed before the test without re-tuning. The re-tuning after the MD wasn't comprehensive, it was missing spark advance.


I'm only reading what's been posted here, i don't know/have any other info, but from what i've ready, those are the inconsistencies, and i think they're enough for a few ponies difference.

*Baseline tune not matched to installed hardware.

*Re-tune not comprehensive enough to include spark advance.

*Resulting peek power was the same but with a smoother power curve.



Just calling it how i see it from the info here.

:shakes head:

Too many dyno queens on this site...

I just think your expectations were too high.

I thought motordyne was present for the install and dyno? They should have insisted on a comprehensive tune . Then this would not even be a discussion..( provided it actually showed gains that is)

+1 good summary of what's been reported in the OP's review.

If it looks and sounds good plus makes more power than stock you cant really complain. ~5 peak whp more makes zero difference in the grand scheme of things. The only thing it DOES is help your ego when you tell someone how much hp you are making.

Gains from one exhaust manufacturer to another are negligible in most cases unless flow is being impeded by a smaller diameter pipe compared to a larger one. I like to analogize it to running. Try running only breathing from your nose, then try from just your mouth. There will be a huge difference. Now if you use both your nose and your mouth, the difference will not be felt in your performance. Yes you paid for sound and a "smoother" power curve, but I would consider it a decent upgrade if the sound quality is exactly what you wanted and the build quality is superior. Hell, after you sell your Invidia exhaust, it will help swallow that $1600+ pill. Your exhaust sounds amazing by the way, one of the best I've heard.

Excellent point but for the purposes of being an independent test I specifically wanted to avoid directing or telling the dyno operator/tuner (Sebastian) what to do. ...It should be as if I wasn't even there.

My reasoning is the only time an objection should really be made if something is intentionally slanted but I saw nothing like that so I stayed hands off.

Yep :iagree:

I don't agree with the OP's "Buyer Beware" statement.

That should be reserved for the other vendors on this forum and their questionable/shady business practices.

+1 ^^ Definitely uncalled for.

lol couldn't agree more.

But i'm still waiting if someone can replicate the result's Tony did when he announced the Shockwave.

Still on the fence between this and FIs.

buyers should beware...be very aware about how tony is not in here talking bad about anything or that your lieing..be aware that he is saying "Hey if thats what you got thats what you got and Im very happy that you did that comparison and I encourage everyone who buys my exhaust to also compare it and give the community your honest opinion"...

Pictures of the day.

Swapping parts.
http://www.motordyneusa.com/media/ku...6/IMG_3033.JPG


We did some experimentation with the tips so you can see what some of the options and possibilities are.
5" tip extended.
http://www.motordyneusa.com/media/ku...6/IMG_3034.JPG


5" tip retracted.
http://www.motordyneusa.com/media/ku...6/IMG_3035.JPG


Rear view of 5" tip. It can also be adjusted vertically up or down.
http://www.motordyneusa.com/media/ku...6/IMG_3036.JPG


Rear view of 4.5" tip for comparison. Which do you like best? 5.0" or 4.5"?
http://www.motordyneusa.com/media/ku...6/IMG_3037.JPG

Straight edge stainless tips.
http://www.motordyneusa.com/media/ku...6/IMG_3038.JPG


http://www.motordyneusa.com/media/ku...6/IMG_3040.JPG


http://www.motordyneusa.com/media/ku...6/IMG_3041.JPG


http://www.motordyneusa.com/media/ku...6/IMG_3042.JPG


http://www.motordyneusa.com/media/ku...6/IMG_3043.JPG

I guess if you want it looking bulging back there, then the 5's, but with that airdam i think the 4.5's are framed nicely.

I also prefer rolled and straight silver, not "burnt" :)

I am not usually a fan of big tips on any car to say the least, but in this case, I am really digging the 5" tip and how it appears to "fill in" the space under the diffuser. :)

Did you guys get a weight difference between the E370 and the Gemini?

idk, i think i like the 4.5" silver straight tips the best.

No, weight was not measured.

I'll keep that in mind :tup:

I like the 4.5 tips on that diffuser. I think I like the 4.5" on a stock bumper with them sticking out a bit.
The 5" looks good tucked back a bit, and I think it will be great on a blacked out OEM rear center section.


Thanks for the honest review info on the 7AT, OP.

Yep :iagree:once again. Cavet Imptor ("let the buyer beware," is the proper statement) but in this case doesn't apply and is still your responsibility as a buyer.

From what I have experienced, Motodyne is on the ball with their construction, finish and willingness to produce an exhaust that is worthy of praise.

They went out of the way to post video's from everyone's requests and took the time to answer countless questions. I think the op was expecting far to much and in actuality and got precisely what he asked for and purchased.

If the op wants the additional hp the exhaust is capable of producing, then tune it correctly as Motodyne did. Ask them, I'm sure they won't hold back any of the tuning spec's. Bottomline $'s + time = hp, there is no short cut. If you think all bolts on's are the same, then your going to be disappointed every time.

Otherwise, quit whining about how bad it is and do what's necessary to for the maximum hp gain. If you don't, then take it off and sell it. I'll be happy to give you $1400.00 shipped.:tup:

Was there any issues with having the EVO-R diffuser?

Did you guys need to play around with the hangers and that or were all the adjustments made with the tips?

First of, I did not make this thread to bash Motordyne. I have supported Motordyne in the past with the M370 manifold and ART pipes. I even did before and after pulls for the M370 as well and it performed as expected. This was an independent review on an exhaust that have been talked about heavily leading up to its release. I am hoping some members can appreciate the review and make an educated choice in buying their next CBE purchase.

Tony posted his ideas on why the E370 didn't 'outperform' the Invidia, why the curve was smoother with the E370, and that the E370 wasn't tuned for timing to maximize gains.

If the Invidia was tuned for timing and AFR while the E370 was tuned only for AFR, wouldn't this be considered an unfair, slanted dyno comparison? Wouldn't it be it in Tony's interest to ask why the tuner didn't modify the timing tables for the E370? If Tony didn't want to direct the tuner on what to do, he should have told me and I would have gladly insisted on timing tuning. I am the one paying for the re-tune. In addition to that, the same timing tables that were already in place for the Invidia, would have also be in place for the E370. Would timing tuning really make a measurable difference then?

The Invidia baseline tune was not optimized for the boltons on the car and the dyno plot still matched dead on with the E370, albeit it being lumpy. We can agree if the Invidia baseline was re-tuned, the baseline curve would be just as smooth as the E370, and with additional HP. Yes, the Invidia baseline was reaching ping. However, all the Invidia would require is a re-tune to obtain a smooth curve.

As for the 'buyer beware' comment, that was meant for members in the market looking for a new CBE. To encourage them to do their research before choosing a new exhaust.

I am not disappointed the E370 did not make any PEAK hp. I am complaining that it did not make any gains, anywhere under the curve. The E370 did not have any performance benefits over the Invidia Gemini. Everyone is right. I had very high expectations. If Motordyne believes these numbers are acceptable, then more power to them. If these numbers are satisfactory for everyone then so be it. Not many would have guessed the $800, made in Taiwan, Invidia Gemini would give the E370 a run for its money.

I will consider your $1400 shipped. I will drive it a bit more to break it in and see what happens. As of right now, E370 exhaust + ART pipe combination is too loud for a DD in my opinion.

Spacers are included so clearing the diffuser will not be an issue.

A great endorsement for the repeatability of this shop's dyno, and warning that $$ does not always = horsepower.

Hmm I wanna see a bone stock car put this exhaust on and see what the gains are like. You already have pretty much full bolt ons, you can't magically make more HP switching out pipes. Even if they are more expensive :rofl2:

You will make more power switching from a stock exhaust to any aftermarket exhaust. There is no point in comparing with stock versus aftermarket exhausts. It's when you compare aftermarket versus aftermarket, that's when you see which one outperforms the other.

can you please post some drive bys?

I would be interested in a comparison of various exhausts with stock tunes, that would probably show up a better comparison?

Tuned properly, there is a greater potential for the Motodyne E370 to make more horsepower, then a cheap Taiwan made exhaust. The Gemini won't produce any more hp then it is now, no matter how well the motor is tuned. Any additional bolt on's will actually be hindered by it. This is what Tony was trying demonstrate and explain.

It always takes $'s + time, installing, tuning, and tweaking to = hp but some will never understand or have the capacity to.

One shot on a dyno isn't going to magically produce additional horsepower. That's nothing but false hope. It is what it is.:tup:

I think people are overestimating the impact an exhaust can make on our cars.

That's just what I think.

I think he's referring to it not being spark advance tuned, it's at a sweet spot, it's not at it's limit, which is where it was at with the previous system.

Hi Jason,

Unfortunately I didn't know there would be a tuning session until it was already underway. I assumed the laptop plugged into the OBD port was for monitoring engine parameters, but it wasn't until Seb mentioned adjusting fuel tables (half way in) that I found out. I asked if there would also be timing changes but the answer was "No." If I knew you intended a full tuning session that day it would have given me a chance to think about what a proper testing procedure would be for both sets and what to look for in the curves. The baseline could have been tuned flat and then the post could have been tuned the same threshold. If I knew tuning was part of the procedure, yes, I could have asked all kinds of questions and would have been looking closely at the state of each tune.

And yes, when the car was running on the dyno you mentioned you had a tune just two weeks prior and had the M370 swap, but I wasn't aware of the base tunes relation to the manifold change or that a only a fuel tune was part of the post test.

I was my mistake for not having asked more questions but none of this is what I would call slanted on anybody's part.


If I knew you intended a full tune it would have been possible.

It certainly can but testing is the only way to really know.

Not necessarily, it depends on the reason why it was pinging. Not enough fuel and/or too much spark advance. Testing is the only way to really know.

It may be but when the data shows pre and post dyno runs are at different thresholds, controlled testing is the only way to know.

Would you like to see if your Z can make additional power from where it is now by going with a more complete tune? I know it was a long drive for you but if you like, Church Automotive is a shop that is very local to you and they can do the tuning. Motordyne will pick up the tab. Church Auto is literally on the other side of the Vincent Thomas bridge from you. In Wilmington.

Thank you,:tiphat:
Tony

Now that's the kind of service i wanted! I'll wait until this issue is solved and power gain is achieved, i'll be on the list Tony:tup:

Tony

Based on your opinion you are implying his Z wasn't tuned as far as it could have been. I don't think you have ever personally tuned or used the UpRev software. So to better inform you. Ignition timing changes on the VHR engines are different especially when it comes to NA tuning. Timing tweaks on the NAs do not make any noticeable differences. This is in part due to how aggressive the knock sensors are, our 91 octane, and the VVEL integration. I've done many tunes on VHR NA applications where even higher octane fuel nets little to no gains in timing. UpRev is still working on releasing more settings and maps to address timing with the VHR. The tuning at the end of the pulls had nothing to so with the outcome of the results. Both catbacks were run multiple times before tuning to show equal results. You can see the AFRs were nearly identical for both systems. Jason wanted to tune at the end to better his AFRs and extract any more power available from his current modifications. Which I told you we were going to do at the end. I datalogged on that first run of tuning.

Nothing more could have been to showcase the results nor any changes in the tuning. I do not appreciate the jab even if it was unintentional. You did not have all the information to make that assumption. I provide only the best service to ALL my customers. Anything less is not tolerated.

http://www.specialtyz.com/images/seb/AFRs.jpg
This is a comparison between the best runs on both catbacks with no changes in tuning. You can see the AFRs are nearly identical.

No jabs at all for you Sebastian. :)

Tony and I have worked it out. He understands where I was coming from. Communication is key to everything.

thanks for caring, I appreciate the input.

Seb

Hi Guys,

Just a FYI. I have absolute respect for Sebastian and his tuning capabilities.

I expect the dyno results from just about any aftermarket exhaust to be very similar. While differences can show from one system to another, its not going to be all that much.

Even if its trivial, for what ever the delta may be, it would be interesting to see what kind or how much the differences are.

Tony

So I took up Tony's offer to get it tuned at Church Automotive. Will keep this thread updated with results.

Thanks Tony!

awesome! :tup:

Nice man, hope all goes well.