Stillen HFC vs. BERK HFC

semtex · 04-17-2009, 09:21 AM

Well, all I will say is this, Jesse. I'm on my 12th Nissan now, and my parents are also Nissan loyalists. At various points over the past 15 years, we've owned the same cars at the same time. Whenever this has happened, I've noticed differences between our cars that quite frankly boggle my mind. For example, at one point they owned a Pathfinder and my wife had the exact same model. When I drove their Pathfinder the first thing out of my mouth was 'What's wrong with your Pathfinder??' I mean, the thing was positively anemic. I actually popped the hood open to verify that it had the same engine it was so bad. Then I checked to see if they had something obstructing the gas pedal! That thing was awful to drive! Well, guess what? My wife and I have lead foots; my parents drive like grannies. My parents are the type of people I refer to as 'pylon-imitators' when they're on the road.

Now, take from that what you will. I don't know if it's the ECU 'learning' one's driving habits or what, but clearly something is adjusting to the way each vehicle is regularly driven. Also, I find your response to NizmoZ somewhat confusing. You wrote: "the car just has not learned what the engine needs at those conditions. once you put the engine in those conditions it learns what it needs and eventually feels better than before." Umm...doesn't your second sentence contradict the first? You begin by stating that the car just hasn't learned what the engine needs, then you state that once you put the engine in those conditions it learns what it needs.

I don't know, maybe I'm just not understanding what you wrote.

In any case, the point I'm trying to make here is that -- no disrespect to your resume intended -- but as far as I'm concerned, real life experience trumps all the certifications and courses in the world. I don't care if you have a Ph.D. from MIT and another one from Harvard. If your courses say xyz should function one way but real life empirical experience shows that it functions a different way, I'm going with the latter, not the former. In short, one should judge theory by empirical evidence/experience, not the other way around. That's common sense, right? Except I see people lose sight of this simple principle all the time. Far too often, I'll listen to some big shot academic with multiple degrees argue that someone's evidence must be wrong because it doesn't conform to his/her academic theory. That's bass ackwards, man. If the evidence doesn't support the theory, it's the theory that needs to be re-examined. I listen to these academic types attack the evidence without even considering that maybe, just maybe, their theories aren't 100% perfect, sometimes even suggesting that the evidence is fabricated.

NIZMOZ · 04-17-2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

Well, all I will say is this, Jesse. I'm on my 12th Nissan now, and my parents are also Nissan loyalists. At various points over the past 15 years, we've owned the same cars at the same time. Whenever this has happened, I've noticed differences between our cars that quite frankly boggle my mind. For example, at one point they owned a Pathfinder and my wife had the exact same model. When I drove their Pathfinder the first thing out of my mouth was 'What's wrong with your Pathfinder??' I mean, the thing was positively anemic. I actually popped the hood open to verify that it had the same engine it was so bad. Then I checked to see if they had something obstructing the gas pedal! That thing was awful to drive! Well, guess what? My wife and I have lead foots; my parents drive like grannies. My parents are the type of people I refer to as 'pylon-imitators' when they're on the road.
'

Exactly what we have seen out of all the Nissans myself and my family has owned. I might have you beat man.

Gonna list them....below.

A good example is our 2001 Altima. My father drove that car for years. Everytime I got in it, felt like a dog, and weak and slow. Then my mom had to use it for a week. She also noticed it it was slow at first. But she has a lead foot. It woke up after about 2 days of driving and really felt peppy. I then drove it after she did and agreed with her that it was really peppy. Nothing like it was before. The 2003 Altima was a 4 banger. It felt like a V6 because of the way she drove it and when the dealer had it they couldn't believe how peppy and strong it was for a 4 banger out of the rest of the ones they have driven.

Again I am going to say this. The ECU learns from the person driving and makes changes. Jesse, this is the way Nissan's work. I can't say for other manufactures but they also might be similar.

1978 Datsun B210
1991 Sentra SE-R
1987 200SX XE
1992 Sentra SE-R
1997 Quest
1995 Maxima SE
1998 Maxima SE
2000 Maxima SE
2001 Sentra SE
2001 Altima
2003 Altima
2001 Maxima SE
2003 Pathfinder LE
2004 Titan
2004 G35
2005 G35
2007 350Z Current
2009 Murano Current

wstar · 04-17-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse

Let me make it easier to understand.

FACT
Every car sold in america has to be built to federal EPA or California standards. Says so under your hood on your BAR label.

If the computer were to re-program to your driving habits this would infringe on what the government wants to see happen with your vehicle. Computer is there not to satisfy the driver, its to satisfy the government.

The EPA and California standards only limit emissions. There's a *lot* of room for different ECU-controlled engine behavior within those limits, and there's no logical reason that an EPA/CARB-compliant car can't adapt its maps to the driver, as well as to the local weather and the aging and deterioration of its own components.

semtex · 04-17-2009, 02:35 PM

I'm beginning to think we're arguing over semantics here. Take this statement, for example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse

The reason your car was a dog untill your mom drove it is because when your mom drove it hard it gave the computer a chance to finnally see what the engine needed and conformed accordingly better every time it was driven like that.

Okay, to me, that's just another way of saying that the car adapted! Think about it. To paraphrase Jesse, if the car is driven around by slowpoke grandpa Magoo all the time, the engine isn't going to see what it needs and it'll perform like a dog. When grandpa Magoo's hot daughter with a lead foot borrows the car for a week and drives it hard, the computer finally has a chance to see what it needs and conforms (aka adapts) accordingly. Right?

Well what do you think the process of conforming is? It's just another word for adaptation, is it not? If I conform to my environment, isn't that the same thing as adapting to my environment?

I mean, am I crazy? Or are we all actually saying the same thing but just using different words?

wstar · 04-17-2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

I mean, am I crazy?

Yes

NIZMOZ · 04-17-2009, 03:12 PM

Exactly. Good job man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

I'm beginning to think we're arguing over semantics here. Take this statement, for example:

Okay, to me, that's just another way of saying that the car adapted! Think about it. To paraphrase Jesse, if the car is driven around by slowpoke grandpa Magoo all the time, the engine isn't going to see what it needs and it'll perform like a dog. When grandpa Magoo's hot daughter with a lead foot borrows the car for a week and drives it hard, the computer finally has a chance to see what it needs and conforms (aka adapts) accordingly. Right?

Well what do you think the process of conforming is? It's just another word for adaptation, is it not? If I conform to my environment, isn't that the same thing as adapting to my environment?

I mean, am I crazy? Or are we all actually saying the same thing but just using different words?

355890 · 04-17-2009, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

Well, all I will say is this, Jesse. I'm on my 12th Nissan now, and my parents are also Nissan loyalists. At various points over the past 15 years, we've owned the same cars at the same time. Whenever this has happened, I've noticed differences between our cars that quite frankly boggle my mind. For example, at one point they owned a Pathfinder and my wife had the exact same model. When I drove their Pathfinder the first thing out of my mouth was 'What's wrong with your Pathfinder??' I mean, the thing was positively anemic. I actually popped the hood open to verify that it had the same engine it was so bad. Then I checked to see if they had something obstructing the gas pedal! That thing was awful to drive! Well, guess what? My wife and I have lead foots; my parents drive like grannies. My parents are the type of people I refer to as 'pylon-imitators' when they're on the road.

Now, take from that what you will. I don't know if it's the ECU 'learning' one's driving habits or what, but clearly something is adjusting to the way each vehicle is regularly driven. Also, I find your response to NizmoZ somewhat confusing. You wrote: "the car just has not learned what the engine needs at those conditions. once you put the engine in those conditions it learns what it needs and eventually feels better than before." Umm...doesn't your second sentence contradict the first? You begin by stating that the car just hasn't learned what the engine needs, then you state that once you put the engine in those conditions it learns what it needs.

I don't know, maybe I'm just not understanding what you wrote.

In any case, the point I'm trying to make here is that -- no disrespect to your resume intended -- but as far as I'm concerned, real life experience trumps all the certifications and courses in the world. I don't care if you have a Ph.D. from MIT and another one from Harvard. If your courses say xyz should function one way but real life empirical experience shows that it functions a different way, I'm going with the latter, not the former. In short, one should judge theory by empirical evidence/experience, not the other way around. That's common sense, right? Except I see people lose sight of this simple principle all the time. Far too often, I'll listen to some big shot academic with multiple degrees argue that someone's evidence must be wrong because it doesn't conform to his/her academic theory. That's bass ackwards, man. If the evidence doesn't support the theory, it's the theory that needs to be re-examined. I listen to these academic types attack the evidence without even considering that maybe, just maybe, their theories aren't 100% perfect, sometimes even suggesting that the evidence is fabricated.

Won't Cobb Tuning remap fix this issue when released and with that said won't this overwrite really take the condom off this whole issue.

Oh! and that's not theory. it's Fact.

But love your comments....

04-17-2009, 09:21 AM	#1 (permalink)
semtex A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Behind enemy lines Age: 55 Posts: 5,995 Drives: People to drink Rep Power: 34	Well, all I will say is this, Jesse. I'm on my 12th Nissan now, and my parents are also Nissan loyalists. At various points over the past 15 years, we've owned the same cars at the same time. Whenever this has happened, I've noticed differences between our cars that quite frankly boggle my mind. For example, at one point they owned a Pathfinder and my wife had the exact same model. When I drove their Pathfinder the first thing out of my mouth was 'What's wrong with your Pathfinder??' I mean, the thing was positively anemic. I actually popped the hood open to verify that it had the same engine it was so bad. Then I checked to see if they had something obstructing the gas pedal! That thing was awful to drive! Well, guess what? My wife and I have lead foots; my parents drive like grannies. My parents are the type of people I refer to as 'pylon-imitators' when they're on the road. Now, take from that what you will. I don't know if it's the ECU 'learning' one's driving habits or what, but clearly something is adjusting to the way each vehicle is regularly driven. Also, I find your response to NizmoZ somewhat confusing. You wrote: "the car just has not learned what the engine needs at those conditions. once you put the engine in those conditions it learns what it needs and eventually feels better than before." Umm...doesn't your second sentence contradict the first? You begin by stating that the car just hasn't learned what the engine needs, then you state that once you put the engine in those conditions it learns what it needs. I don't know, maybe I'm just not understanding what you wrote. In any case, the point I'm trying to make here is that -- no disrespect to your resume intended -- but as far as I'm concerned, real life experience trumps all the certifications and courses in the world. I don't care if you have a Ph.D. from MIT and another one from Harvard. If your courses say xyz should function one way but real life empirical experience shows that it functions a different way, I'm going with the latter, not the former. In short, one should judge theory by empirical evidence/experience, not the other way around. That's common sense, right? Except I see people lose sight of this simple principle all the time. Far too often, I'll listen to some big shot academic with multiple degrees argue that someone's evidence must be wrong because it doesn't conform to his/her academic theory. That's bass ackwards, man. If the evidence doesn't support the theory, it's the theory that needs to be re-examined. I listen to these academic types attack the evidence without even considering that maybe, just maybe, their theories aren't 100% perfect, sometimes even suggesting that the evidence is fabricated. __________________ "There are no small accidents on this circuit." -- Ayrton Senna 316.8whp & 248 ft/lbs (Dyno Dynamics) \| 319whp & 256 ft/lbs (DynoJet) (04/23/10) Stillen G3 CAI, CBE, Pulley / F.I. LTH / GTSpec Ladder Brace / Setrab Oil Cooler / UpRev-tuned by Forged Perf.

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