STILLEN 370Z Supercharger System - Announcement!!!

Zguy · 03-16-2010, 06:27 PM

any dyno vids yet? I looked through the thread briefly but figured they would be on the first page if they were going to be anywhere at all.

stormcrow · 03-16-2010, 09:35 PM

Kyle -

Firstly, let me say kudos and congratulations. It seems you guys have done your best to put out a solid kit and I look forward to hearing some feedback from the soon-to-be new owners.

I do have a few questions, if you will indulge me. You stated that Nissan recommends "draw through" setups for their MAF. Granted, I will not argue the point that both F/I cars that you mentioned and all N/A Nissan cars do come with a "draw through" setup. But, the two F/I cars you mentioned are OEM turbo cars and their ECU programming has been stringently coded to accept the fact that the temperatures being read by the MAF sensor are certainly not the temperatures of the charge going into the intake post compressor. This is, arguably, not the appropriate setup for an aftermarket F/I application running on an N/A ECU.

When utilizing an ECU that is designed for N/A applications, how do you figure that it is better to run "draw through" as opposed to "blow through" when blow through gives actual IATs to the ECU to utilize via the MAF temp sensor versus the colder, denser air pre-compressor of the "draw through"? When the ECU believes the intake temps are 70 degrees, but the charge entering the intake is really 180 degrees, this can be a very detrimental thing.

Also, I take it you guys are using a recirculating bypass valve, as well, and no venting to the atmosphere or BOV? I didn't see anything mentioned about this in the release.

Thank you, sir, for your time.

G35s-Q8 · 03-17-2010, 06:59 AM

One question in mind, when well we see this kit for the 2007+ G35 Sedan, and the G37 Sedan? I assume the kit well fit both cars, and the only difference should be the tune, and if someone bought the tuner version, then it should be no problem if it's installed on a G35 or G37 sedan.

Kyle@STILLEN · 03-17-2010, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G35s-Q8

One question in mind, when well we see this kit for the 2007+ G35 Sedan, and the G37 Sedan? I assume the kit well fit both cars, and the only difference should be the tune, and if someone bought the tuner version, then it should be no problem if it's installed on a G35 or G37 sedan.

We really just need time and a test vehicle. We plan on test fitting this kit to the cars you listed as well as the 07-08 350Z's.

nuTinmuch · 03-17-2010, 11:43 AM

Hm. Another question -- how much stress is this putting on the auto tranny?

I'd imagine the force means that obvious wear will happen faster, but will it be an excessive amount? There seems to be a lack of upgrade-ability so far for it.

Chris@FsP · 03-17-2010, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuTinmuch

Hm. Another question -- how much stress is this putting on the auto tranny?

I'd imagine the force means that obvious wear will happen faster, but will it be an excessive amount? There seems to be a lack of upgrade-ability so far for it.

I'd recommend a valve body upgrade for sure, and probably a higher stall tq converter while you're at it.

Kyle@STILLEN · 03-17-2010, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormcrow

Kyle -

Firstly, let me say kudos and congratulations. It seems you guys have done your best to put out a solid kit and I look forward to hearing some feedback from the soon-to-be new owners.

I do have a few questions, if you will indulge me. You stated that Nissan recommends "draw through" setups for their MAF. Granted, I will not argue the point that both F/I cars that you mentioned and all N/A Nissan cars do come with a "draw through" setup. But, the two F/I cars you mentioned are OEM turbo cars and their ECU programming has been stringently coded to accept the fact that the temperatures being read by the MAF sensor are certainly not the temperatures of the charge going into the intake post compressor. This is, arguably, not the appropriate setup for an aftermarket F/I application running on an N/A ECU.

When utilizing an ECU that is designed for N/A applications, how do you figure that it is better to run "draw through" as opposed to "blow through" when blow through gives actual IATs to the ECU to utilize via the MAF temp sensor versus the colder, denser air pre-compressor of the "draw through"? When the ECU believes the intake temps are 70 degrees, but the charge entering the intake is really 180 degrees, this can be a very detrimental thing.

Also, I take it you guys are using a recirculating bypass valve, as well, and no venting to the atmosphere or BOV? I didn't see anything mentioned about this in the release.

Thank you, sir, for your time.

When we say that Nissan recommends a draw-through setup we're not just using other vehicle's as examples, we mean that their engineers told us that the O.E. MAF sensor is not designed to be used as a blow through. We have a very good releationship with Nissan North America and we do talk regularly with their engineering team and this is what they recommended to us.

The NISSAN MAF sensor is not designed to read the air blowing over it because the sensor can not read air density. It only reads air volume. If you compress the air through the compressor then blow it through the MAF sensor the MAF is unable to read all of the air going by it so you're not getting an accurate measurement of air. Again, this information came from Nissan.

Yes, in order to achieve CARB legality we can not vent to atmosphere so we must use a recirculating by-pass valve. However, a blow off valve could easily be adapted to the kit if someone wanted that.

stormcrow · 03-17-2010, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN

When we say that Nissan recommends a draw-through setup we're not just using other vehicle's as examples, we mean that their engineers told us that the O.E. MAF sensor is not designed to be used as a blow through. We have a very good releationship with Nissan North America and we do talk regularly with their engineering team and this is what they recommended to us.

The NISSAN MAF sensor is not designed to read the air blowing over it because the sensor can not read air density. It only reads air volume. If you compress the air through the compressor then blow it through the MAF sensor the MAF is unable to read all of the air going by it so you're not getting an accurate measurement of air. Again, this information came from Nissan.

Yes, in order to achieve CARB legality we can not vent to atmosphere so we must use a recirculating by-pass valve. However, a blow off valve could easily be adapted to the kit if someone wanted that.

Wow, man. Either Nissan fed you some misinformation or your engineers misunderstood what they were told. Nissan uses a 'hot wire' type mass air-flow sensor which most certainly does measure the density of the air. It does so by denser air causing a temperature drop or pressure drop. This, in turn, requires more voltage from the hot wire to equalize the intake temperature with the temperature of the hot wire itself. Nissan is not using a 'vane meter sensor' which would measure only air flow instead of air density and flow.

The reason Nissan uses 'draw through' on the OEM turbo cars is for longevity of the MAF. That and because a MAF in laminar air flow is much easier to tune. Granted, 'blow through' designs will certainly diminish the life of the MAF, but not drastically.

BTW, if anyone decided to adapt a BOV to your kit, the tune would fall on its face and the car would probably not even idle. "Draw through" MAF setups do not allow for anything but recirculation. You are not a tuner, so I will let you have a pass on that one. But, I certainly wouldn't recommend it to your clients.

bigcloud · 03-17-2010, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormcrow

Wow, man. Either Nissan fed you some misinformation or your engineers misunderstood what they were told. Nissan uses a 'hot wire' type mass air-flow sensor which most certainly does measure the density of the air. It does so by denser air causing a temperature drop or pressure drop. This, in turn, requires more voltage from the hot wire to equalize the intake temperature with the temperature of the hot wire itself. Nissan is not using a 'vane meter sensor' which would measure only air flow instead of air density and flow.

The reason Nissan uses 'draw through' on the OEM turbo cars is for longevity of the MAF. That and because a MAF in laminar air flow is much easier to tune. Granted, 'blow through' designs will certainly diminish the life of the MAF, but not drastically.

BTW, if anyone decided to adapt a BOV to your kit, the tune would fall on its face and the car would probably not even idle. "Draw through" MAF setups do not allow for anything but recirculation. You are not a tuner, so I will let you have a pass on that one. But, I certainly wouldn't recommend it to your clients.

I don't post on here much, but this is starting to get annoying.

So are you a Nissan engineer? Have you signed a non disclosure agreement with Nissan? Stillen engineers collaborated with NISSAN engineers what don't you understand about that? If they have information you don't have to make a decision on the design of a product then why are you questioning the design? I mean did you have ANY hand in the development of the kit? If so then you may have a leg to stand on, but if you don't have any proprietary information from NISSAN then why are you giving them a hard time? Are you an engineer for some other company and you're looking for proprietary information through backdoor means? Something doesn't seem right here...

stormcrow · 03-17-2010, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigcloud

I don't post on here much, but this is starting to get annoying.

So are you a Nissan engineer? Have you signed a non disclosure agreement with Nissan? Stillen engineers collaborated with NISSAN engineers what don't you understand about that? If they have information you don't have to make a decision on the design of a product then why are you questioning the design? I mean did you have ANY hand in the development of the kit? If so then you may have a leg to stand on, but if you don't have any proprietary information from NISSAN then why are you giving them a hard time? Are you an engineer for some other company and you're looking for proprietary information through backdoor means? Something doesn't seem right here...

Seriously? Paranoid much? The simple fact is that Nissan uses a 'hot wire' mass air-flow sensor and there is no secret or "inside information" on how 'hot wire' mass air-flow sensors work.

bigcloud · 03-17-2010, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormcrow

Seriously? Paranoid much? The simple fact is that Nissan uses a 'hot wire' mass air-flow sensor and there is no secret or "inside information" on how 'hot wire' mass air-flow sensors work.

I honestly do not even know why I responded to your post. Simply, it was retarded.

Not paranoid, but annoyed at the fact that you're trying to discredit the design or find some flaw in it. I am an engineer and can see what you're trying to do. Granted you do sound very educated on this subject, but what are you trying to accomplish? Other people that do not have your knowledge will not fully understand what is going on. Are you trying to contribute to the community? In what way? What are your intentions?

DannyGT · 03-17-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigcloud

I don't post on here much, but this is starting to get annoying.

So are you a Nissan engineer? Have you signed a non disclosure agreement with Nissan? Stillen engineers collaborated with NISSAN engineers what don't you understand about that? If they have information you don't have to make a decision on the design of a product then why are you questioning the design? I mean did you have ANY hand in the development of the kit? If so then you may have a leg to stand on, but if you don't have any proprietary information from NISSAN then why are you giving them a hard time? Are you an engineer for some other company and you're looking for proprietary information through backdoor means? Something doesn't seem right here...

I dont think any of the information he's talking about is some sort of secret. He does sound knowledgable, I just dont know if its all accurate when referring to the 370Z. Either way - they are informative questions and I would like them answered because I didnt really know how the MAFs in our cars worked. Not a big deal...

EDIT: Thanks for answering that so fast Stillen! LOL

bigcloud · 03-17-2010, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyGT

I dont think any of the information he's talking about is some sort of secret. He does sound knowledgable, I just dont know if its all accurate when referring to the 370Z. Either way - they are informative questions and I would like them answered because I didnt really know how the MAFs in our cars worked. Not a big deal...

EDIT: Thanks for answering that so fast Stillen! LOL

You may be right DannyGT, but if you read into his questions from a systems engineering point of view you will see where he is coming from.

Kyle@STILLEN · 03-17-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormcrow

Wow, man. Either Nissan fed you some misinformation or your engineers misunderstood what they were told. Nissan uses a 'hot wire' type mass air-flow sensor which most certainly does measure the density of the air. It does so by denser air causing a temperature drop or pressure drop. This, in turn, requires more voltage from the hot wire to equalize the intake temperature with the temperature of the hot wire itself. Nissan is not using a 'vane meter sensor' which would measure only air flow instead of air density and flow.

The reason Nissan uses 'draw through' on the OEM turbo cars is for longevity of the MAF. That and because a MAF in laminar air flow is much easier to tune. Granted, 'blow through' designs will certainly diminish the life of the MAF, but not drastically.

BTW, if anyone decided to adapt a BOV to your kit, the tune would fall on its face and the car would probably not even idle. "Draw through" MAF setups do not allow for anything but recirculation. You are not a tuner, so I will let you have a pass on that one. But, I certainly wouldn't recommend it to your clients.

That is absolutely what Nissan told us. Also a little FYI, one of the top tuner's for Nissan/Infiniti (UPrev) also recommends using a draw through MAF setup.

In regards to the car stumbling on its face with a blow off valve. You are correct...and incorrect...We are going to be using the Turbosmart blow off valve which is a two stage blow off valve. If you're simply driving around a parking lot then it will re-circ back through. When under hard driving it will blow off into atmosphere.

I might not be a tuner but I'm also not an idiot...I understand that by removing the metered air from the system that the car could potentially stumble and possibly die because you're taking the air away after it has already been metered...Don't need to be a tuner to understand that. I actually addressed this same question in the technical discussion thread.

stormcrow · 03-17-2010, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN

That is absolutely what Nissan told us. Also a little FYI, one of the top tuner's for Nissan/Infiniti (UPrev) also recommends using a draw through MAF setup.

In regards to the car stumbling on its face with a blow off valve. You are correct...and incorrect...We are going to be using the Turbosmart blow off valve which is a two stage blow off valve. If you're simply driving around a parking lot then it will re-circ back through. When under hard driving it will blow off into atmosphere.

I might not be a tuner but I'm also not an idiot...I understand that by removing the metered air from the system that the car could potentially stumble and possibly die because you're taking the air away after it has already been metered...Don't need to be a tuner to understand that. I actually addressed this same question in the technical discussion thread.

Thanks for the response. Hmmm.. I guess I need to pose the same question to the guys at Uprev. I truly would like to know how tuning for a 'draw through' setup on an OEM N/A car with an aftermarket F/I kit is better than tuning for 'blow through'. I do understand the advantages of 'draw through', but the tuning is what concerns me. The IATs are certainly different (much hotter) than what the MAF is calculating for. This is a fact.

Truly, I wasn't implying that you are an idiot. That whole tone/inflection thing. But, even if you use a two stage BOV that recircs as lower pressures, you could still achieve a rich condition when it vents to the atmosphere. Again, any BOV in a 'draw through' setup is certainly a problem.

EDIT - I don't want my question of does this Vortech blower sound better than its predecessors to be lost in the dialogue re: MAFs. Can we hear that bad boy?

03-16-2010, 09:35 PM	#2 (permalink)
stormcrow Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Alpharetta, GA Posts: 267 Drives: 2010 370Z Nismo TT Rep Power: 17	Kyle - Firstly, let me say kudos and congratulations. It seems you guys have done your best to put out a solid kit and I look forward to hearing some feedback from the soon-to-be new owners. I do have a few questions, if you will indulge me. You stated that Nissan recommends "draw through" setups for their MAF. Granted, I will not argue the point that both F/I cars that you mentioned and all N/A Nissan cars do come with a "draw through" setup. But, the two F/I cars you mentioned are OEM turbo cars and their ECU programming has been stringently coded to accept the fact that the temperatures being read by the MAF sensor are certainly not the temperatures of the charge going into the intake post compressor. This is, arguably, not the appropriate setup for an aftermarket F/I application running on an N/A ECU. When utilizing an ECU that is designed for N/A applications, how do you figure that it is better to run "draw through" as opposed to "blow through" when blow through gives actual IATs to the ECU to utilize via the MAF temp sensor versus the colder, denser air pre-compressor of the "draw through"? When the ECU believes the intake temps are 70 degrees, but the charge entering the intake is really 180 degrees, this can be a very detrimental thing. Also, I take it you guys are using a recirculating bypass valve, as well, and no venting to the atmosphere or BOV? I didn't see anything mentioned about this in the release. Thank you, sir, for your time. Last edited by stormcrow; 03-16-2010 at 09:37 PM.

03-17-2010, 11:43 AM	#5 (permalink)
nuTinmuch A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,092 Drives: PG 7AT 370Z Rep Power: 19	Hm. Another question -- how much stress is this putting on the auto tranny? I'd imagine the force means that obvious wear will happen faster, but will it be an excessive amount? There seems to be a lack of upgrade-ability so far for it. __________________ nuTinmuch! -- Platinum Graphite 370Z -- Check out my Gallery thread here!

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03-16-2010, 06:27 PM	#1 (permalink)
Zguy Base Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Fort Worth Posts: 153 Drives: 05 Chrome Silver Rep Power: 18	any dyno vids yet? I looked through the thread briefly but figured they would be on the first page if they were going to be anywhere at all.

03-17-2010, 06:59 AM	#3 (permalink)
G35s-Q8 Base Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 20 Drives: 08 G35 Sedan Rep Power: 17	One question in mind, when well we see this kit for the 2007+ G35 Sedan, and the G37 Sedan? I assume the kit well fit both cars, and the only difference should be the tune, and if someone bought the tuner version, then it should be no problem if it's installed on a G35 or G37 sedan.