*Gasp*
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Maybe this is a hidden message telling me to save up longer and go TT. I have LTHs coming though......................

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Perhaps Stillen needs to give up more information about the engineering behind their kit to assist Shops and DIYers with installation and tuning of this application. It seems like history is repeating itself..............

Let's hope that history DOES NOT repeat itself. The majority of 350z Stillen SC users ditched their SC

:iagree:

Unfortunately, we seem to be headed in that direction. I don't remember folks having these kind of issues with Z33 installs though............

At least you didn't have to buy a new hood

syperchargers have been used in racing for more than 60 years now. Have you ever seen a dragsters that they put cats or some other form of increased exhaust restriction on it for the sake of making
More power?

Here is the dyno with the supercharger installed and yesterday the dyno with the new tune. Lost 20 hp on the new tune. Anyone having luck with the new tune?

Stillen is picking up my car next week to take it to their shop to finally get this thing fixed.

Those are almost exclusively roots types. I'm not saying I agree, just that this rumor has been seen for years and I've even seen some manufactureres allude to a too unrestricted out flow. I can't figure out why this would be but both SC applications seem to have a occational problem when the standard exhaust was changed. Might be coincidence, might not. Just an easy way to find out as it's the most significant delta in his car.

That's very cool!

That's wassup. Let us know how it turns out.

How is it that people are still debating over this exhaust thing? Its been proven on Shumby's car that the extra flow from the exhaust causes a loss of boost and thereby power. This is due to the overlap of the valves letting the intake charge flow right out of the cylinder and into the exhaust before it can ever make power.

The issue is valve overlap, the band-aid solution is to increase exhaust backpressure to stop the intake charge from flowing right out of the cylinder. NA engines want more valve overlap than FI applications to increase exhaust scavenging and such while FI applications dont want it because this kind of thing happens.

So until someone cracks the VVEL control module and allows tuners to change valve timing we will be stuck with this issue, increase the boost to make up for boost "lost" or increase exhaust backpressure.

Edit: I should add in that this is what I suspect to be the issue based on my knowledge, I can't say this is for sure whats wrong with it as I don't exactly have the means to back up that statement.

Can we have an official Stillen answer on all these problems and differences in between their test cars and the ones from customers. They really need to have an official answer as to avoid any further damage to their Stillen SC brand.

Despite all of these issues, I may still go for the Stillen SC as it is most likely the most reliable over time nonetheless they absolutely need to address the low HP gain people on here have been having. You cannot advertise 155HP gain and once install only get 80HP.

We absolutely need some official communication from Stillen.

^^^ WTF are you basing more reliable over time on. so far I have the most miles but on any SC set up and it is GTM. No issues and did everything I asked of it. Stillen has a long track record of dissapointing the infiniti/nissan crowd.

Did you ask it for some sweet looking female companian in the passenger seat? Thats gonna be one of my demands out of GTMs SC. By the way how many hours did your install take?

Yes i did ask it that and boom. My sxuper hot wife was in the car with me. lol. My install took a long time. but i had alot of other work done at GTM at the same time with some custom work for my oil and tranny coolers plus the Camp II install. I did lie it did not do everytrhing i asked of it. I asked it to get me more BJ's but that has not happened yet.

ummm wife in passenger seat.:stirthepot:

The "SAE Air Correction Factor" which is used by all the dyno guys is:

SAE CF = 1.18[Ps/(Pm-Pv)][sqrt(Tm/Ts)]-0.18
(sqrt = square root)

This formula is right out of SAE Paper #J1349 (revision June 1990), and is the latest form of the air correction formula. SAE assumes 15% frictional loss within the engine, which is probably close for a piston engine. NOTE: this is NOT the losses from the crankshaft to the rear wheels, that is a different loss.

Ps = standard pressure
Pm = measured pressure (barometric pressure)
Pv = vapor pressure of water (relates to RH%)
Ts = standard temperature
Tm = measured temperature

The SAE baseline values are:
------------------------------------
Ps = 29.235 inHg
Ts = 77.0 deg F (534 deg R)
Pv = 0 inHg (dry air, no humidity)

Pv will not be 0 inHg during a dyno run, but will equate to the vapor pressure of water vapor in the air, which is a function of humidity.

P units = inHg
T units = deg R (deg F + 460). If not in deg R, you will get a wrong answer!

So, the CF will depend on where the actual air temperature, pressure and humidity is with respect the standard values listed above.

The CF can be less than, or more than 1.00. If you tested your Z06 on a dyno on a day when T = 77 deg F, P = 29.325 and the RH = 0% in the shop where the dyno was, then the CF would be exactly 1.00. As you can see, there are MANY combinations of T, P and RH that will give you the same CF.

Note, the Pv (vapor pressure of water) defines the RH% and is subtracted from the atmospheric pressure because the water vapor "displaces" that much pressure, and essentially makes it equivalent dry air (RH = 0%) at the resulting pressure of Pm - Pv.

BTW, the pressure values in the formula has more effect on HP than the temperature values (square root of a ratio)

Source: z06vette.com

_______________________

Yes Stillen Math. My correction was of 5.3% according to the dynojet.

You know, with an attitude like yours, I'm glad you're having so many problems.

:ugh2: Thanks



More bad news for stillen on the way wait for weiboys dyno results from today

I don't understand why you would say that. I understand your car is running great but there are alot of people on here who are not happy with the product that was delievered. I also believe that they have givin stillen more time then really what I would have givin to correct the problem. Also to add more fuel to the fire the new tune isn't lving up to what he was expecting. SO I think he has every right to have a pissy atttude towards stillen just like everyone else in his stuation regardless of what company it is. Thats just my opinion RC and I can understand his frustration. I know stillen is tying to make it right and I respect that but if it was me they would be giving me my money back one way or the other and I would have went with the GTM kit.
Frank

:iagree:

I am trying to keep up with this thread, but this stinks. My thing is, maybe stillen can refund money to people and have them have a shop they trust by each customer tune the vehicle for the money they refund to the customer? This way each car will have its specific tune, and should run without issue, or am I just whistling dixie?

The issue with that is, the warranty people want means it has to have a Stillen tune, also CARB certification only comes with the Stillen tune.

You know what I agree with you. That will take care of the people that already have the kit instead of there car sitting in there garage waiting for the fix. Yes it is a temporary fix to a problem but at least the people with the kits now can go enjoy there car before winter gets here. Stillen has the kit on hold and there not selling anymore till they get the problem fixed. Which is smart on there part but they need to get the people that already purchased one taking care of instead of trying to kill two birds with one stone. If this was me this is what I would tell them. To pay for my car to get tuned and verify the data logs so I can keep the warranty or give me my money back..
Frank

I have bitten my tongue quite a bit as of late. But, these kinds of comments are just plain wrong, Raul. You know better than to let emotion flow from your fingertips into the keyboard. You are bigger than this.

Id take that i just want to drive it before winter gets here and it goes into storage. Change of plans not sending my car to stillen. More to follow.......

I was waiting for this and knew it was coming. I hate to say this but Jeremy did call this out and a lot of people gave him **** for it.
Glade to see your still active in the threads bro and I hope everything is going well with you
Frank

So is Stillen going to comment on the new tune? I understand that the tune has to be locked for carb legal, but what I dont understand is why dont they just tune it the way others have and then lock that tune? It might mean switching the program they are using but cant a regular tune be locked?

Two weeks with new tune
 

I purchased the Stillen FI kit and had Chris with Failsafe install it. I did have to wait on the new tune because this all took place right as Chris ordered my FI kit. So from day one my '09 with 7 AT has had the "new" tune. I feel a lot like Phimosis, where I'm a bit disappointed that the car did not put down the advertised power and torque. I'm more specifically disappointed in the amount of torque gained. My numbers where 389 whp / 290 Wtq on a fairly mild day, ambient was in the mid 80's. I find it interesting because Chris custom tuned LateralG'z car and the dyno results were very close to mine, except that ambient on the day Chris tuned LateralG's car was in the 100's. Also, note that LateraG'z car has a standard trans.

I owned a 2001 Mustang Bullitt GT that had head work, cams and custom tune and was seeing 12 psi of boost. That car with a conservative custom tune put 450 whp to the ground on a mustang dyno, but (and a big but at that) the drivability of the car was never right and no matter what three different tuners tried, the idle or steady state throttle was never right. One thing I can say for the Stillen tune is that drivability with the "new" tune is superb and anyone who drove the car not knowing there was an FI kit under the hood would know any different.

I also had Chris install Stillen's catback system and I really like how smooth and progressive the power and sound is with the FI, catback combo. The rough sound of the stock engine is gone, replaced with a really nice exotic exhaust note that is not intrusive in anyway and most importantly absolutely no drone at any speed in any gear. The SC puts out a very small whine at idle but disappears when you accelerate, replaced by the intoxicating sound of the exhaust. Most might not find the exhaust sound intoxicating but I come from a history of V8 motors and I love the sound of a strong running V8. I have not had much experience with V6 motors and I was concerned when I first seen how big the exhaust tips are on the Stillen exhaust. At first I was afraid the car was going to sound like a Honda Accord with one of those coffee cans installed on the back. I'm very happy to say that it does not even come close to sounding like that at all. I am quite pleased with the sound from idle all the way to redline.

As for performance as I stated I am a bit disappointed but not to the point where I'm thinking about removing the system and demanding my money back. After all the kit is priced very reasonably for what all comes with it (at least at the intro price). The power is smooth and the tune does increase the performance right off of idle as well, the car has a lot more thrust below 3k rpm then stock and throttle response is great. With the 7AT first gear is almost useless, if you step into it hard in first the tires will just go up in smoke. I find myself short shifting about 4-5 grand into second and then get into it and it still breaks the tires loose and will kick out sideways very easily if desired (which I desire allot).

What I don't understand following all of the FI threads, is that all the operating systems, whether GTM or Stillen, are operating at 6-8 psi of boost. Yet the numbers produced are all over the place with minimal differences between cars as far as exhaust systems go. And this is with some of them having Stillen's tune and others with custom tunes. IMHO, if the same motors are operating at 8 psi of boost (which is just a reference of manifold pressure based on a certain amount of air moving through it) then they should produce very similar amounts of HP. The only differences would be based on the SC itself and its curve. Most centrifugals these days use the same technology and design concepts to produce their SC's. If one SC is making considerably more HP than another it would have to produce significantly more boost overall or in a specific rpm range. Take for instance GTM's SC which makes more HP than Stillen's. It supposedly is doing so at the same boost levels, and if it is making more boost earlier on in the rpm range of the motor it would certainly make more than 8 psi of boost at the top end of the rpm range. Therefore, it just does not equate that the GTM kit can make that much more than the Stillen which is producing the same boost levels at said air volume through the manifold. Because of this it is my opinion that the GTM and Stillen kits make relatively similar gains on a stock 3.7 no matter the exhaust setup and the differences we are seeing in dyno graphs is due to types of dyno's used, ambient conditions (temps, humidity, elevations, etc.), initial dyno software input, car setup on the dyno (is it strapped down tight, could it be too tight an impose to much resistance), etc. There's a lot of variables involved and like many of said before a dyno is tool good for tuning and comparing baseline with added mods on the same car on the same dyno.

I have chased horsepower and numbers before with the Mustang Bullitt and when doing so I used three different tuners, all with different dyno's and they all indicated very different results. I also discovered as we decreased pulley sizes on the SC to increase boost we would only gain 15-20 whp per smaller size. I found this to be true as I watched others do the same with different SC's on the same or similar motor as mine.

In conclusion if you look at everyone’s results that have posted so far, there is significant variances in HP and TQ from one car to the next even with the same FI kit. This tells me that variables mentioned above play a significant role in what the dyno graph is going to look like and IMHO I don't think there really is that much difference. For instance take a look at my numbers compared to LateralG'z, they are very similar despite the fact that mine has the Stillen tune and G'z has the custom tune. Both were run on the same dyno and the results due differ slightly but ambient conditions were different at the time each car was run.

You really want to know if the GTM kit is producing that much more power than the Stillen? Take two Z's with the same setup (exhaust, tires, etc.) and ensure both FI kits are producing the same boost levels and then have one driver take them both down the quarter mile back to back. I'm willing to bet the difference is negligible.

Oh, and I forgot to say that Chris at Failsafe Performance in Tulsa did an outstanding job of installing everything on my car and when I went to pick it up it was detailed and waiting for me. I highly recommend him and his services.

Nice writeup, OKC...

If I may, what did install cost?

And for anyone else caring to prove I'm an idiot...does this system negate any aftermarket CAI?

That is awesome I gotta use that now!

so the kits are only making about 50 more TQ than stock?

Mine went up by 77 lb/ft over bseline with headers, cats, exhaust, g3 intakes.

Im up 66 TQ from bone stock just shy of stillens 106 TQ that they advertised:ugh2:

I don't even know what was my baseline lol.

Tom, when your car goes to Stillen, make sure they do before and after dynos, not just 'after', so you can compares apples to apples. My experience is that stillens dyno is optimistic and you may already be making 410 hp on their dyno.

Also, the 106 lb/ft increase in torque is not apples to apples. The baseline was done at 95 degrees with 25% humidity, compared to post supercharger run done at 65 degrees and 35% humidity. The DA of the baseline is 2437. DA of postsupercharger run is 471. That's going to be worth 20-30 hp right there. They could have deliberately heat soaked the car or ran baseline with hood shut, then post supercharger with hood open, or a bunch of other tricks to tweak the results. Food for thought.

Yes, you will not be using any stock or aftermarket CAI with these supercharger kits as the filters are relocated completely into the bumper.

Well I think they can do a warranty on them, IF they just get someone in each area for the customers with their kits out and have them do a tune on the car for its specific need.

only the stillen showes this low torque gain. I have 350 FT/LBS of TQ with my GTM set up at only 6 psi.

well thats more like it, I dont think I can by a $5K SC for only 50 - 60 more tq.

^^^ ya the tq is the reason i stopped at the 6 psi pully as i was worried about putting more tq on the 7AT tranny. But after 7000 miles i think i will talk to Sam about getting the new pully and a new tune to go along with it.