STILLEN 370Z Supercharger System - Announcement!!!

Kyle@STILLEN

The discussion of air to water and air to air intercoolers is currently going on in the GTM thread but I did not want to jump in on that thread so I will post our reasoning for air to water in this thread...

Please feel free to do any amount of research on this as you like. The results will always be the same. The bottom line is, water is a more efficient cooling method than air. Water is four times more efficient at dissipating heat than air. It's thermodynamics, not some STILLEN voodoo...It just is.

This is a pretty good explanation of the benefits of air to water intercooling:

Browser Warning

I don't know why this says browser warning but it works fine...

One of the other benefits of the air to water intercooling is that the heat exchanger in front does not consume all of the airflow to other vital coolers such as engine oil, power steering, automatic transmission fluid, a/c condenser.

yes, there is a bit more weight in the air to water intercoolers because you do have to account for the weight of the water and additional pumps, but we're talking fractions of a percent when comparing the overall power to weight ratio of the entire vehicle.

The other thing to consider is that the majority of O.E. manufacturer's with supercharged vehicle's use air to water:

Ford
Ford GT Supercar
Lightning
Ford GT500
Ford Mustang Cobra

GM
Corvette ZR-1
Cobalt SS

Toyota
TRD supercharger for the 07+ Tundra
TRD supercharger for the older Tacomas

Aftermarket supercharger manufacturers who use air to water intercooling:

Edelbrock
Vortech
Magnuson
Whipple
Kenne Bell
Saleen
Steeda

As everyone has said...Air to air is less expensive, if it was better, wouldn't major manufacturer's use it in their supercharged applications?

fstrnldr

Kyle you conveniently left out the fact that a good portion of those examples have no choice but to run air/water. Almost anything w/ a roots or twin screw style blower is going to be more than slightly difficult to make work w/ an air/air system. There are probably far more examples of factory forced induction cars operating w/ air/air rather than air/water.

That being said the biggest question i would have isn't what is better between air/water and air/air. I personally think they both have their places depending on the intended outcome of the build. The question would be is the system in question large enough to keep the temps under control for the vehicle/blower combination. The only way to prove or disprove this is w/ extended driving monitoring in and out air temps. Not 7 min of dyno runs on a "HOT" 72° day.

RCZ

Really?

If I have to hear Kyle talk about all the real world testing that has gone into this car one more time I'm gonna throw up.

#1001 coming up - Cue Kyle - Go!

fstrnldr

I know they keep posting about all the real world testing, but i would like to see even a portion of the data they obtained. Something in graph form, showing ambient temp, pre IC temp, and post IC temp, and boost. This would tell EVERYTHING. comparing ambient to pre IC will give you a good idea of how hard they are working the SC, and if its close to its efficiency range, and comparing pre and post IC temps will tell you how well the IC is working. If i missed that somewhere in this thread please point me in the right direction.

Kyle@STILLEN

I will gather this information and post it soon. What I can confirm right now without having exact dimensions is that the bar and plate heat exchanger that we use on this supercharger system has more surface area than the old tube and fin heat exchangers that we use on the Titan and 350Z kits...Which is actually the same heat exchanger that Magnusson uses on their Corvette supercharger systems.

You are correct and I should have written a bit more in that post clarifying that there is no need to be concerned about reliability. The primary thing I was trying to point out is that it is reliable enough for some of the largest manufacturer's out there.

You bring up a good point about the need for air to water intercooling in those applications. Another thing I left out of my last post is that one of the primary reasons companies like Bugatti, Ford, or GM choose air to water intercooling over air to air is airflow...Not just the air traveling through the intercooler or directly in front/around it. What else can that air be doing? Take a look at just about every car that comes from the factory with an air to air intercooler and look at the placement of that intercooler. It is almost never a front mount. GT R intercoolers are on the side. 300ZX intercoolers are side mounted, Toyota Supra intercoolers are side mounted, Subaru WRX intercoolers are top mounted. Why is this?

Because the engineers at those manufacturer's understand that fresh airflow to all of the vehicle's coolers is extremely important. The goal is always to get fresh airflow to each cooler. By mounting a large front mount intercooler directly in front of all of the other coolers means that the second or in some cases third and fourth row of coolers are not seeing fresh air. By the time those coolers see outside air it has already been heated by the intercooler, oil cooler, auto trans cooler, power steering cooler, a/c condenser...you see where I'm going with this.

I am trying hard to convince our engineer's to let me take apart the black car again. Just to take off the fascia so that we can take a picture to show you what I'm talking about. Fortunately, and unfortunately, our engineer's are more concerned with testing and putting miles on the car than they are about marketing.

You also bring up a great point about "The only way to prove or disprove this is w/ extended driving monitoring in and out air temps. Not 7 min of dyno runs on a "HOT" 72° day."

We have done this...Our 5AT G37 coupe was tested at El Toro air force base for high speed runs, heat soak testing (0-140 MPH run after 10 minute heat soak to check heat exchangers ability to dissipate heat from coolant), drifting/abusive testing (tight radius, low speed high RPM turns which keeps airflow low but heat high.) and much much more...

Also, Steve Millen has taken our 6MT red 370Z to Las Vegas, Nevada and back. Then he took it to Virginia City and back with a stop off in Mammoth in freezing temperatures to check the performance of the intercooler and supercharger system in cold climates. Steve stayed the night in Mammoth after a snow storm, let the car sit overnight and fired it back up in the morning. On this trip the car went through high elevation, and cold weather testing.

I personally have also driven the red Z on numerous occasions, sometimes even to local car shows like the Cerritos meet.

Yesterday our head mechanic took our customer's 7AT black 370Z to Baker and back...accidentally missing the 91 freeway entrance and going to Temecula instead...another 350 mile round trip.

We have thousands of miles of testing completed so far. We have the kits driving around the streets on three vehicle's with three different transmission setups so we can make sure that the kit works perfectly on each.

Xan

In that case let me post some more merits I also posted in the other thread in here as well, as I believe they support your point. Oh and add the Bugatti Veyron to that list as well.

From my post in the other thread:

As for the air to water cooling, you do not need to add ice to match the efficiency of an air to air cooler. Water is a more efficient to draw out heat, think about it, how many air cooled engines are there today? The possibility of adding ice is just an added benefit of this type of system as by doing so you can cool the intake air below ambient, something that is impossible to do with an air to air cooler. In reality this is only useful when you’re for instance doing a drag race.

An additional benefit is that typically an air to water cooling will have a lower pressure drop compared to an air to air cooler, based on their design.
Which as a result means the your SC can be used more efficiently for engine performance.

Another benefit is that you have more freedom where you place the intercooler with and air to water cooler then you have with an air to air cooler. So you can for instance avoid putting it in front of your radiator and not have air that has been heated up from your intercooler going into your radiator and making your engine cooling less effiecient. Which in the VQ engine is a welcome benefit)

And finally there is the fact that an air to water cooler has less trouble with heat soaking. When your car is standing still, either before an autox run or just in traffic, your air to air cooler isn’t cooling. However the pump on the air to water cooling is still running and will keep the temperature spikes from such a heat soak in control.

__________________

RCZ

Kyle, don't forget the Bugatti Veyron. I know its not SC, but its worth the mention.

Funny that the fastest production car in the world, one of the fastest production nurburgring lap cars and one of the most focused cars in the world use water-to-air cooling and somehow the system is inferior. (Veyron, ZR1 and Ariel Atom).

Xan, dont forget that the shorter piping also drastically improves throttle response. Also to add to your pressure drop comment. The SC will be able to run at 8psi to produce 8psi manifold pressure with the short piping and no pressure drop. If there is, lets say, a 1psi pressure drop in the IC system, then the SC will need to produce 9psi, theoretically speaking, to produce 8psi manifold pressure. I don't have to tell anyone here that the more you compress air and the harder/faster you make the sc work the more heat goes into the air to begin with and therefore the less effective the entire system becomes.

Funny also that they skipped over some search results that argued completely FOR water cooling and only picked out the ones that argue against it from websites that, Surprise!, sell air to air intercoolers. That's some seriously good research.

I was going to post something on their thread, but didn't want to deal with the arguing that was sure to come afterwards.

de_dust

great information kyle and xan... nobody questions the fact that water is a greater cooling efficiency than air... however the concern is it would be nice to have more information on how the stillen kit is design to provide and maintain this cooling efficiency.... how big is ur radiator, are you installing a fan with it, location, etc etc... so if u can provide that, it would be nice... also can you think of the possible reason why nissan never used water cooling... perhaps the GTR could have used it....

Buddy Revell

It appears that a large number of supercharged cars from the factory use air to water ICs. Why do a large number OEMs seem to prefer air to air instead for factory turbocharged cars?

__________________
'08 IP G37S/GTM Supercharger/20" DPE SP-5 Wheels/ARK GRIP Exhaust

BalanBro

I apologize if this was answered already, but what additive is used to prevent freezing? Is it an antifreeze mix?

DannyGT

So I see a bunch of roots style SC's that have no choice but to run water and this is the definitive proof thats its the be all, end all? Cmon...

Also, all those side mounted cars still have air directed to them and while technically on the side, are still very much in the FRONT. Lets not forget Evo's, SRT4s, 335i, what else...

The way you guys are debating this crap is the same way I can argue that with your 'better' cooling, comes more points of failure due to the pump, AMIRIGHT?!?! LOL - lets just call it even and stop the QQ'n.

*posted via mobile*

__________________
Performance GTM Stage 1 SC, GTM Res.Test Pipes, Invidia Gemini Exhaust, GTM HD Oil Cooler
Wheels & Suspension AME Tracer TM02's 19x9.5F 19x10.5R w/ 265x35F & 305x30R, Hotchkis Sways, BC (BR) Racing Coilovers (Car Sold)

Xan

I wasn't going to get into any discussion, but you seem to be basing your statements on only a small portion of the information. So I feel compiled to (re)point out a couple of things

In an earlier post (copied from my post in the GTM thread) I wrote down some of the benefits for air to water. I wrote them from a neutral standpoint and I didn't see anybody not agreeing with those benefits, not even in the GTM thread.

I'll also repeat what I said in the other thread about reliability
Also the statement was not that is wasn't mounted in the front of the car, but that it wasn't mounted in front of other key components, such as the engine radiator. With the result of having heated air from the intercooler going into the radiator. (I highlighted this same point in my earlier post)

Although the air to water system is pretty tried and proven.
I want to add one personal opinion about the "stick to what is tried and proven".
If everybody thought that way we would still live in the stone ages and would never see any innovations...

__________________

DannyGT

Good post, but you seemed to miss my point of 'moving along' more than anything else. I will say this tho...I sure hope they arent just making room on the shelves by using the same core's that the 350's used. Can you say he soaked after one dyno pull, lol.

__________________
Performance GTM Stage 1 SC, GTM Res.Test Pipes, Invidia Gemini Exhaust, GTM HD Oil Cooler
Wheels & Suspension AME Tracer TM02's 19x9.5F 19x10.5R w/ 265x35F & 305x30R, Hotchkis Sways, BC (BR) Racing Coilovers (Car Sold)

RCZ

^ was gonna say so earlier, but I'm staying out of this from now on. At first I thought it was almost insecurity and a search for justification...

GTM can fight their own battle, Stillen can fight their own battle. I feel this forum has become too polarized as a result of this two threads/companies. I hope the damage isn't permanent and once this becomes old news things will go back to normal.

Zsteve

Im sure both kits will do fine, Ill choose the one I like and everyone else will choose the one they like. But in the end it will be all good and hopefully both kits have no major issues so we can enjoy them. Im looking forward to the extra power myself.

__________________
2010 LS3 C6 Silver coupe corvette