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Nissan 370Z Forum (http://www.the370z.com/)
-   Forced Induction (http://www.the370z.com/forced-induction/)
-   -   Preparation for the STILLEN supercharger (http://www.the370z.com/forced-induction/12373-preparation-stillen-supercharger.html)

stormcrow 03-10-2010 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Revell (Post 438157)
Yeah, given the tuning is solid, I wonder what the stock engine's limits are as far as how much boost it can take reliably on pump gas?
This is the Holy Grail of questions posed in every revision of the VQ as well as every other platform that is modifiable on the planet. The simple answer is - no one knows. We thought we knew with the DE after 2-3 years of development on it, but there was always the guy who lost a motor on 6psi which was considered safe and the guy who had 30+ passes at a drag strip on 14psi before the stock block let loose.

The honest truth is, when you force induct a car that wasn't engineered for this application, there is no true "reliable." You take a huge risk no matter what. I have heard it said many times - "Fast, cheap and reliable; you can only have two." I don't really believe you can have cheap and reliable, though.

Buddy Revell 03-10-2010 08:58 AM
Hmmm...hopefully there can at least be a ballpark figure, then. Another question I had was how much boost can one run on an engine with 11 to 1 comp ratio on 91 octane pump gas before detonation becomes a problem? How much more can you run on 93 octane pump gas?

fstrnldr 03-10-2010 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slow370 (Post 438057)
let me fix that it won't cost much for the pulley and a new tune to get the vortech into it's efficiency range the problem is can your stock engine handle 15-20 psi with over 700hp without going bang. thats why you start with small power on a big blower. then all you need to really spend cash on later is your engine instead of having to buy another 2500-3000 compressor (vortech pricing)

Edit: there now kyle can relax in the morning when he gets back on his computer. So the kit fit under our massive strut bar?

So the guy that just wants a mild HP upgrade and never wants to build the motor for high horse power just ends up with a blower that is out of the efficiency range? Why not offer another blower option? Makes more sense to me.

LiquidZ 03-10-2010 09:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fstrnldr (Post 438202)
So the guy that just wants a mild HP upgrade and never wants to build the motor for high horse power just ends up with a blower that is out of the efficiency range? Why not offer another blower option? Makes more sense to me.
Assumimg Stillen uses the Si trim supercharger, the compressor map leads me to believe that this supercharger starts off with a high efficiency already. However, as you increase the boost and airflow with this unit, you still have excellent efficiency.

roplusbee 03-10-2010 09:16 AM
Those are all good thoughts/questions, but I doubt we will really have an answer until enought people take that plunge. I know I will at a point, but I am thinking that it may be a prerequisite to build for "safety" sake. As far as my budget goes, I would have to safe some more pennies to make that happen. This discussion has taken a turn for the better and hopefully those questions will be answered in time.

RCZ 03-10-2010 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Revell (Post 438157)
Yeah, given the tuning is solid, I wonder what the stock engine's limits are as far as how much boost it can take reliably on pump gas?
Eventually when I get bored and have some extra loot laying around to rebuild the engine I'll give you an exact number hahaha.

Im pretty sure this blower is already in its efficiency zone even with the Stillen CARB kit. Remember guys that the CARB kit is already up 140whp up on their baseline (420-280=140whp) per Stillen's preliminary dyno numbers. Its not like they aren't making good use of the blower, its just that it has a good bit more room to stretch out it's legs after that.

1slow370 03-10-2010 09:58 AM
honsetly the kit is going to be about damn near maxed when you buy it from either company. a general rule of thumb for car with a drivetrain as sturdy as ours is to limit it by the psi no the horsepower. an 8 psi turbo kit and an 8psi supercharger kit place equal strain on the block. superchargers make less power because it requires hp to turn the supercharger either way 8psi of air with the same ignition advance is going to generate the same cylinder pressures. right now the highest i would take the stock motor is in the 7-10 range depending on how ballsy you are.

stormcrow 03-10-2010 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Revell (Post 438200)
Hmmm...hopefully there can at least be a ballpark figure, then. Another question I had was how much boost can one run on an engine with 11 to 1 comp ratio on 91 octane pump gas before detonation becomes a problem? How much more can you run on 93 octane pump gas?
I feel that 450 to the wheel would be a "safe" number. I say this in quotes because, again, there is no real way to know. There are just far too many variables given that each engine is different. Every VQ37VHR (or any VQ for that matter...or any motor, truly) will react differently to the same stimuli. Your motor may have better tolerances than mine (as an example) and take the same power longer. Or it may be that you have a weak rod or bearing from the factory and the motor lets loose much more quickly. You just never know. But, for a calculated risk, I want no more than 450 to the wheel.

As far as 91 vs 93, there will be a significant difference in the ability to quell detonation. But, boost isn't the main factor when trying to keep detonation from being an issue...timing is more important. Also, keep in mind that more boost does not always equate more power. It depends on the efficiency range of the compressor used and what the IATs might be. IATs are very important in useful power and keeping detonation at bay. Most times, more boost = higher IATs.

RCZ 03-10-2010 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slow370 (Post 438279)
honsetly the kit is going to be about damn near maxed when you buy it from either company. a general rule of thumb for car with a drivetrain as sturdy as ours is to limit it by the psi no the horsepower. an 8 psi turbo kit and an 8psi supercharger kit place equal strain on the block. superchargers make less power because it requires hp to turn the supercharger either way 8psi of air with the same ignition advance is going to generate the same cylinder pressures. right now the highest i would take the stock motor is in the 7-10 range depending on how ballsy you are.
I think we could get away with 10 psi on a good 93oct tune. As far as being maxed out, I don't think the Stillen kit is near maxed out. As I understand it, they have enough room on that compressor to go well beyond the limit of our internals.

Anyone know what the max psi is for that blower?

LiquidZ 03-10-2010 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCZ (Post 438338)
I think we could get away with 10 psi on a good 93oct tune. As far as being maxed out, I don't think the Stillen kit is near maxed out. As I understand it, they have enough room on that compressor to go well beyond the limit of our internals.

Anyone know what the max psi is for that blower?
22 psi for Si trim.

RCZ 03-10-2010 10:44 AM
^ well then, we can blow up our motor twice over with it then lol.

370Zsteve 03-10-2010 11:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow (Post 436125)
My last OT post in this thread...unless Kyle would like to continue talking racing. That I can do all day.
And that's the point where you went on ignore. Have a great life, Mario. :tiphat:

edit: first time I've used the feature, this thread's size just got halved, rofl.

370Zsteve 03-10-2010 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCZ (Post 438338)
I think we could get away with 10 psi on a good 93oct tune. As far as being maxed out, I don't think the Stillen kit is near maxed out. As I understand it, they have enough room on that compressor to go well beyond the limit of our internals.

Anyone know what the max psi is for that blower?
Woof, 10 psi, I can only imagine the excitement inside the cabin at full throttle :excited:

RCZ 03-10-2010 11:21 AM
Stillen: Question.

Are the tunes for 91oct? Are we going to have an option for 93oct for those of us who get decent gasoline?

Zsteve 03-10-2010 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCZ (Post 438398)
Stillen: Question.

Are the tunes for 91oct? Are we going to have an option for 93oct for those of us who get decent gasoline?
I miss the 93 Oct, I can really feel some loss of power coming here to TX, with the high alt and going from 93 to 91 oct.

Kyle@STILLEN 03-10-2010 11:53 AM
Figuring out the proper efficiency "range" of a Vortech supercharger takes a few things:

1) Volume of air you're trying to move
2) RPM that you're spinning the supercharger
3) Size of the engine you're trying to feed.

Basically, there might be a "sweet spot" of efficiency on the compressor map for the 370Z but it's going to be very different for an engine like a Charger SRT-8 however you can still use the same blower for each application.

One of the great things about the Vortech V3 supercharger is that it is a very efficient blower at over 70% efficiency.

Kyle@STILLEN 03-10-2010 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCZ (Post 438398)
Stillen: Question.

Are the tunes for 91oct? Are we going to have an option for 93oct for those of us who get decent gasoline?
I don't have an exact answer for that yet but it has definitely been a topic around here.

Our biggest issue is that there is nowhere for us to get 93 octane fuel. We were talking yesterday about possible locations and the closest place we can think of is Oklahoma...We're currently looking into it though.

Kyle@STILLEN 03-10-2010 12:24 PM
1 Attachment(s)
I forgot to add this in my last post.

This chart shows some different forced induction systems on the VQ35 engines. You can see how the STILLEN roots blower was the best down low, but at high RPM was lacking.

Buddy Revell 03-10-2010 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN (Post 438477)
I forgot to add this in my last post.

This chart shows some different forced induction systems on the VQ35 engines. You can see how the STILLEN roots blower was the best down low, but at high RPM was lacking.
Definitely good to see how the entire hp curves compare and not just the peak numbers. It'll be very useful to compare the final dynos from the two kits when they are eventually available. Thanks for the info.

MMC Racing 03-10-2010 02:18 PM
I don't think this has been asked - what PSI is that dyno at?

Togo 03-10-2010 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMC Racing (Post 438636)
I don't think this has been asked - what PSI is that dyno at?
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...01/popcorn.gif

stormcrow 03-10-2010 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMC Racing (Post 438636)
I don't think this has been asked - what PSI is that dyno at?
Yes, we all overlooked that question. :roflpuke2:

Kyle - As far as 93 octane goes, why not just mix your 91 octane with 100 octane unleaded? There is a calculable ratio for which you can get 93 from this mixture. I believe 3 gallons of 100 octane added to 10 gallons of 91 will net a 93.1 octane fuel. :) There, I just saved you from having to import fuel from Oklahoma. *lol*

RCZ 03-10-2010 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN (Post 438450)
I don't have an exact answer for that yet but it has definitely been a topic around here.

Our biggest issue is that there is nowhere for us to get 93 octane fuel. We were talking yesterday about possible locations and the closest place we can think of is Oklahoma...We're currently looking into it though.
Cool, are there any plans for a Stillen branded meth/water injection kit? Maybe you guys could talk to Aquamist, SMC, Coolingmist or Snow Performance for some support. I think it might be nice insurance and a little extra power for those who are planning on pushing the limits a tad.

LiquidZ 03-10-2010 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCZ (Post 438645)
Cool, are there any plans for a Stillen branded meth/water injection kit? Maybe you guys could talk to Aquamist, SMC, Coolingmist or Snow Performance for some support. I think it might be nice insurance and a little extra power for those who are planning on pushing the limits a tad.
Ah... the horsepower addiction is strong in this one...

LUVZTTZ 03-10-2010 02:55 PM
Alrighty...early March is winding down. On what day will you be dropping the Press Release? Seems like a fair question :excited:

Kyle@STILLEN 03-10-2010 03:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow (Post 438643)
Yes, we all overlooked that question. :roflpuke2:

Kyle - As far as 93 octane goes, why not just mix your 91 octane with 100 octane unleaded? There is a calculable ratio for which you can get 93 from this mixture. I believe 3 gallons of 100 octane added to 10 gallons of 91 will net a 93.1 octane fuel. :) There, I just saved you from having to import fuel from Oklahoma. *lol*
Yea, we have found a few sources on mixing 100 and 91 to get a final outcome of 93 but I don't know how much I trust it and I don't really want to risk our customer's engine's on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCZ (Post 438645)
Cool, are there any plans for a Stillen branded meth/water injection kit? Maybe you guys could talk to Aquamist, SMC, Coolingmist or Snow Performance for some support. I think it might be nice insurance and a little extra power for those who are planning on pushing the limits a tad.
We do have plans for additional upgrades but it's a bit early to talk about them yet. We are a few months away from testing on those systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LUVZTTZ (Post 438672)
Alrighty...early March is winding down. On what day will you be dropping the Press Release? Seems like a fair question :excited:
Josh and I are putting together the press release this week. Our graphic artist is putting together a short video, and the engineer's are on the dyno with the Z. As long as everything goes well with the testing we should be releasing all of the info soon.

Kyle@STILLEN 03-10-2010 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN (Post 438433)
Figuring out the proper efficiency "range" of a Vortech supercharger takes a few things:

1) Volume of air you're trying to move
2) RPM that you're spinning the supercharger
3) Size of the engine you're trying to feed.

Basically, there might be a "sweet spot" of efficiency on the compressor map for the 370Z but it's going to be very different for an engine like a Charger SRT-8 however you can still use the same blower for each application.

One of the great things about the Vortech V3 supercharger is that it is a very efficient blower at over 70% efficiency.
updated...

stormcrow 03-10-2010 03:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN (Post 438687)
Yea, we have found a few sources on mixing 100 and 91 to get a final outcome of 93 but I don't know how much I trust it and I don't really want to risk our customer's engine's on it.
Mixing higher and lower octane fuels to achieve a middle ground is a long-standing practice and hasn't resulted in any catastrophies that I know of. But, even if there were an inherent risk, you wouldn't be risking customer's cars on it, no? You would be mixing on your own car to produce a 93 octane base map tune for your flash that comes with the kit. Or am I missing something here?

Kyle@STILLEN 03-10-2010 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow (Post 438744)
Mixing higher and lower octane fuels to achieve a middle ground is a long-standing practice and hasn't resulted in any catastrophies that I know of. But, even if there were an inherent risk, you wouldn't be risking customer's cars on it, no? You would be mixing on your own car to produce a 93 octane base map tune for your flash that comes with the kit. Or am I missing something here?
You are correct, and we have done that in the past on some vehicle's. For example, I mix 100 octane with 91 octane on my dirtbike all the time.

But, if we are preparing a tune on our car using a 91 mix with 100 octane and say we don't get it 100% right and we end up with say 95 octane fuel...Then we're sending out a tune to our customer's who are in states with 93 octane hoping that the fuel we had in our car was truly 93...when in fact it was 95 and therefore the tune is going to be too aggressive.

is that a better explanation?

Basically...it doesn't matter what fuel is in our car...we can tune for it...but to trust that the fuel that we're using is truly 93 octane and then to send that tune to a customer...THAT's what puts the customer's car in danger.

Another wrench in the works is that California has oxygenated fuel which also sucks...We have really crappy fuel out here.

stormcrow 03-10-2010 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN (Post 438751)
You are correct, and we have done that in the past on some vehicle's. For example, I mix 100 octane with 91 octane on my dirtbike all the time.

But, if we are preparing a tune on our car using a 91 mix with 100 octane and say we don't get it 100% right and we end up with say 95 octane fuel...Then we're sending out a tune to our customer's who are in states with 93 octane hoping that the fuel we had in our car was truly 93...when in fact it was 95 and therefore the tune is going to be too aggressive.

is that a better explanation?
Yes, and I actually grasped that. But, unless you *really* dropped the ball in your mixing of fuels, that scenario is next to impossible. Looking at it that way, you could have all sorts of scenarios play out for the negative. What if the fuel you received from OK was watered down? What if it had degraded? What about summer fuel vs. winter fuel? (drastic differences in 93 here) All of these things are really sort of moot. If you really wanted to tune for 93, the mixing is easiest route. And I was just throwing it out there to help.

Edit - saw your addition. It's cool. Whatever you guys feel is best for your company. Truly was just trying to help you out. If it is really not an option for you guys, no worries. If you want to know more about it, here is a good fuel company created chart on mixing for different octanes.

http://www.lansystem.com/jh/octane.jpg

Kyle@STILLEN 03-10-2010 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow (Post 438765)
Yes, and I actually grasped that. But, unless you *really* dropped the ball in your mixing of fuels, that scenario is next to impossible. Looking at it that way, you could have all sorts of scenarios play out for the negative. What if the fuel you received from OK was watered down? What if it had degraded? What about summer fuel vs. winter fuel? (drastic differences in 93 here) All of these things are really sort of moot. If you really wanted to tune for 93, the mixing is easiest route. And I was just throwing it out there to help.
I understand completely and I hope you didn't take my reply as argumentative or anything like that. Sometimes I just like to clarify that I explained myself well but by asking if it made sense can sometimes appear rude...I hate the internet for the simple reason that it can not convey any tone in your writing other than "wow, this guy's just being a jerk!" Unless you throw an LOL at the end of everything you write in which case you look like a sixteen year old girl texting her girlfriends.

To be perfectly honest...We don't like to take chances when it comes to some of the really important things like fuel, brakes, tires, roll cages, seat frames...Any time that something can fail in a catastrophic way, we like to take a lot of pre-cautions. For example, you should have seen all of the testing that went into the development of the CCM brakes for the GT-R. We tested out at El Toro air base for a couple of months with those things. We didn't want to put the CCM brakes in the hands of a customer only to find out that something might go wrong. The good thing...we found out that they are a PITA to bed properly. It literally took us two days at ridiculous speeds and temperatures to get them to properly bed in. So now, AP Racing puts them on a brake lathe before we send them out to a customer. We don't ask the customer's to bed them in because we don't think it's safe, or even possible to do it properly.

Kyle@STILLEN 03-10-2010 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow (Post 438765)
Edit - saw your addition. It's cool. Whatever you guys feel is best for your company. Truly was just trying to help you out. If it is really not an option for you guys, no worries. If you want to know more about it, here is a good fuel company created chart on mixing for different octanes.

http://www.lansystem.com/jh/octane.jpg
This could be very helpful, I will pass it to my engineering department!

Thank you very much!

stormcrow 03-10-2010 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN (Post 438780)
I understand completely and I hope you didn't take my reply as argumentative or anything like that. Sometimes I just like to clarify that I explained myself well but by asking if it made sense can sometimes be derogatory...I hate the internet for the simple reason that it can not convey any tone in your writing other than "wow, this guy's just being a jerk!" Unless you throw an LOL at the end of everything you write in which case you look like a sixteen year old girl texting her girlfriends.

To be perfectly honest...We don't like to take chances when it comes to some of the really important things like fuel, brakes, tires, roll cages, seat frames...Any time that something can fail in a catastrophic way, we like to take a lot of pre-cautions. For example, you should have seen all of the testing that went into the development of the CCM brakes for the GT-R. We tested out at El Toro air base for a couple of months with those things. We didn't want to put the CCM brakes in the hands of a customer only to find out that something might go wrong. The good thing...we found out that they are a PITA to bed properly. It literally took us two days at ridiculous speeds and temperatures to get them to properly bed in. So now, AP Racing puts them on a brake lathe before we send them out to a customer. We don't ask the customer's to bed them in because we don't think it's safe, or even possible to do it properly.
I hear you on the first paragraph. Tone, enunciation and such are truly lost and a lot of times we all are "read" out of context. No worries. I didn't think you were being a jerk. I just thought you might look at my 'advice' a bit askew due to my past posts.

And I can certainly appreciate your desire to put out the best product available. I, as a consumer, expect that from all vendors. And if I thought, for a second, that there would be any issue with you mixing fuels to make a canned tune I would certainly never recommend such. Still, you should consider it an option. Certainly don't take my word for it being a viable option, but do contact fuel companies and get their take on it. You will be very surprised at what they say you can do. :)

stormcrow 03-10-2010 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN (Post 438782)
This could be very helpful, I will pass it to my engineering department!

Thank you very much!
You are welcome! And we're typing at the same time and making a mess of the quotes! :LOL'ing like a 16yo:

370z4Steve 03-10-2010 05:24 PM
looks like a basic 3:1 ratio 91 to 100

jmlenz 03-10-2010 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMC Racing (Post 438636)
I don't think this has been asked - what PSI is that dyno at?
Thems is fightin words! :roflpuke2:

Buddy Revell 03-10-2010 09:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMC Racing (Post 438636)
I don't think this has been asked - what PSI is that dyno at?
Apparently, someone HAS been using the ignore button.;)

ChrisSlicks 03-10-2010 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 370z4Steve (Post 438914)
looks like a basic 3:1 ratio 91 to 100
4:1. You want the err on the low side for tuning.

1slow370 03-11-2010 03:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCZ (Post 438338)
I think we could get away with 10 psi on a good 93oct tune. As far as being maxed out, I don't think the Stillen kit is near maxed out. As I understand it, they have enough room on that compressor to go well beyond the limit of our internals.

Anyone know what the max psi is for that blower?
I mean that it is maxed out in the sense that after purchase of said kit it is going to cost you like another 6grand to safely up the power. hell if you don't change your clutchand flywheel just buying one of those kits is already over the max the car will take. I like to work in terms of the package as a whole. I think 10 psi would be doable as a race tune but i shure as hell would pulley down to no more than 6-8 for regular use. 10 psi is def. meth injection territory to me. hell i'd think of putting meth on an n/a car just so i could run a nitro booster in it. i'd try to find the most oxygenated shyt i could find.

G35s-Q8 03-11-2010 05:40 AM
So, i have some questions here for Kyle&Josh@Stillen, are you going to send out the S/C kits with uni-chip or control box just like you did the the old 350z S/C?
Or are you planning to use Osiris UpRev reflash and tune?
Do you thing the UpRev is better than uni-chip for tuning?
And what made you go with that route for the tuning? (uni-chip vs uprev tuning).


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