Air Intake Temps- Stillen SC
 

Just sharing this vid.....Seb @ Specialty Z just tuned a Stillen SC'd 370Z over the weekend...this car supposedly has the Frozenboost Heat Exchanger and reached intake air temps of 200*F on a dyno pass. According to Seb the fluid in the reservoir was cool to the touch, so there is obviously inefficiency elsewhere. Supports the argument that the intake plenum is too small to cool the air.



Ive heard that typically TT kits have AIT's of around 120-130 max on a hot day.

That got hot fast!

And he only hit 8.4psi max!! At 10 it would be 225+!!

Sounds like the pump isn't working. Did they verify that the water was circulating? Grabbing hold of the inlet and outlet hose to the plenum should verify that the pump is moving water. If both are the same temp then the flow is no go.

Seb also sent me this video last night. That is why either e85 or some type of meth kit is critical for the Stillen kit, water cooled of course. We also discussed the air to air and he said that it would drastically take down the temps as Aaron has previously said. Our kit being water cooled is a MAJOR flaw. I will also be installing a temp sensor like the guy in the video did, where the old MAP sensor goes to test this as well.

Ill take a video of my A2A setup and show no more than a 15* increase in temps. So a 70 degree day and your temps entering the plenum are a cool 85* or so.

that would be awesome man!! please do so :)

can't remember are you running pump fuel or e85?

I'm on e85. Which cools it even more once in the combustion chamber, but iats will still be the same as pump.

Keep me posted on this mod....I am interested in also doing this...This vid has me very concerned about the AIT's.

I had a massive front intercooler on my R33 Skyline (single turbo running 400hp 1.2 bar) and used to monitor IAT , I would often see 130+ and we dont get really hot days here in the UK. I would expect see even higher temperatures on the dyno.

Of course the a2a kits will cool down much quicker than the water cooled kits which will hold the temperature longer as will all the pipework that sits along the front of the engine of these kits

I think a gauge perferably with a warning is essential

Sorry to dig up an old thread. But I'm very keen to know the ambient air temp on the day?

*edit* Also for those unaware, Seb posted that they found the SC unit had unusually tight bearings, and once that was rectified, temps dropped by 50-60f. */edit*

Just finished doing the Stillen install myself with a 9 PSI pulley and given the crazy summer we're in at the moment 30-40c and occasional heatwaves of 40c+ (104f+) I'm getting very concerned about reliability. Car didn't make that much power (about 360rwhp) and Tuner told me he couldn't advance timing past 13 without pinging.

I'm also looking to install a AIT sensor post-intercooler and Seb is doing an e-Tune for me in a week or two.

Honestly just kicking myself for not going A2A the first time, and while that most likely is on the books, that won't be happening for another year I think.

Ur edit is correct with what Seb disclosed on his follow up in reference to the this video. Are u on the Frozen boost or The Stillen Heat Exchanger?

FrozenBoost. Except I may have gone a little crazy with it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD28gD5U8rA

Awesome! I'm in the middle of my SC install with the frozenboost. Crossed my mind to add a couple fans to pull the air through, but never got beyond the idea.

Oh and you won't fit that drain valve on the bottom unless you trim the bottom of your bumper cover and possibly the undertray. Put the plug back in ;)

Honestly I was just messing around. Figured it couldn't hurt to try and might be fun/interesting lol. And given how high I mounted that Exchanger I don't have any issues with that drain tap. Oh, and I got this kit second hand, didn't come with the plug heh.

Forgive some of the photos, as they were mostly taken during the mock up phases. But I had to create a lot of clearance to make those damn fans fit, it was a very tight fit. Exchanger is kissing the front bar, and there about 10mm clearance from rear of fan to PS & Oil Coolers. PS Cooler had to come back a bit, had to cut some plastic where the lines come in and take the OEM brackets bend/flip and work some magic on them. Oil Cooler now sits on flush with Radiator Support... and it was just one extra Relay for the fans, they draw about 30A.

My mock up experiences were rather similar. Surprised you can stuff it with that valve on though - I used the same bottom mounting points and I just barely clear it as it is, no way I'd fit the valve in there too.

I ended up mounting my oil cooler inverted and pushed back on the drivers side. Could probably clear fans if they were narrow but will see how it goes without them first.
http://www.the370z.com/members/chase...7-img-0820.jpg

Looks like you kept the tow hook, wouldn't that limit even more air reaching that Exchanger being mounted off to the side like that?

I just hacked the damn thing off.

Need the hook for track days or they won't let me on.

The fangs are bigger on the 2016 fascia, this pic isn't great to show it but runs right to the edge of the cooler. Was a fair bit of messing around to get just the right tolerances to squeeze it and keep the took hook mount.

The different fascias might be the difference in fitting that vale or not too.
http://www.the370z.com/members/chase...ken-dinner.jpg

Ahhh, that's the reason then. Yea you have the post-2013 front bar. No idea on the dimensions of that. Interesting about the tow hook and tracking. I don't track so guess I shouldn't miss it.... hopefully, hah.

This is a very good idea...the biggest problem with the Stillen kit really is the heat exchanger in the manifold for two main reasons.

1). No matter how cool or how much of upgrades u do (pump,exterior heat exchanger) the heat exchanger in the manifold can only allow and cool so much fluids at one time l. This becomes an issue when u are pushing the car hard consecutively. Like u I upgraded to the Frozen boost prior to going A2A. What I noticed was recovery time was a lot quicker when I got off the throttle but when pushing the car hard I had the same issues..it's still ran hot and that narrows it down to the interior heat exchanger in the Stillen Manifold.

2) The interior heat exchanger in the manifold takes up a lot of room, which makes it an obstruction for the cold air being blown through the manifold.

Any upgrade from the Stillen is a plus and it should hold up til u can get on the A2A kit. Just be sure to give the car recovery time when ur tracking it (cool down lap) and don't do any upgrades (impelller/pulley). The Stillen kit is made to handle the power and boost it was designed for and nothing more.

Yep, that's what I'm starting to realize now as well unfortunately.

Would you consider this conclusion correct? (this is open to all as well)

The reason we can't go with both the 9 PSI Pulley & Impeller Upgrade for the Stillen kits, is because each on their own would increase charge air temps to a level just below dangerous. Putting them both on would cause charge temps to sky rocket well into engine-exploding territory, and this is made worse by the fact the original Stillen design sees the MAFs installed pre-charge, so the ECU would never actually see the correct temps and maybe mitigate things by pulling some timing. All of this effectively is due to the original Stillen W2A design, more specifically the actual Intercooler embedded inside the Intake Manifold which due to it's small size is just not able to absorb enough heat before the charged air enters the engine. If someone wants to properly exploit the potential of the Vortech Superchargers, they would have to change to a traditional A2A Intercooler system which has far more potential to cool the charged air, making the option to install both a high PSI Pulley & Impeller upgrade safe/viable again.

Is any part of that inaccurate or need further elaboration?

*edit* I don't track my car and have no real plans to so it's just street driving with an occasional hard boot. Maybe a handful of times a year also take it to the local drag strip. */edit*

You pretty much summed it up.

If u take the car to the drag strip be sure to let her cool down l. Back to back runs are not good for the set up u have...been there and done that....Just to give u a figure I did back to back pulls.on the dyno with the same set up and I lost 10whp on my 2nd pull and almost 15whp on my 3rd run. You won't do ur car justice. Run her down the 1/4 and let her cool down for at least 15-20mins before u run her down again.

The one and only advantage the water system has is for the 1/4 mile so that you can dump ice in your system and drop temps below ambient. Again, this would be the only time this would actually be an advantage and would be pointless on any other track or street since the ice will be gone in a minute.

Not to mention that it is a pain in the arse though.

MoulaZ. Your paragraph above really does sum it all up. However, I think that even one of those is still too much heat for longevity of the engine. Why does Stillen make you sign a waiver that voids your warranty to the engine when you order the 9psi pulley?? Because they know it throws reliability to it out the window from too much heat in the system. Basically saying that they don't have confidence it will last 30K miles.

I can also see W2A viable for someone who just treats it as a street car, with the occasional hard boot in it every now and then. But yeah, if you wanna track your car or do more than 1 good drag run every 20 mins W2A seems immediately unviable.

I believe Stillen make you sign a waiver because they're aware of just how little cooling capacity the W2A system is capable of, in addition to the whole CARB thing. We see plenty of Turbo kits putting down more power than SC guys, and those seem reasonably reliable, if not intentionally pushing the envelope for some obscence power figure.

Up until recently, I couldn't understand why SC kits were just putting out lower numbers compared to Turbo kits, but if that conclusion I've come to above is really all the reason, heat, then provided you tackle that issue should we be able to match the Turbo guys? Compressed Air is Compressed Air, whether it comes from a Turbo, or Supercharger. Comes down to CFM & Temp, we have the CFM, now it's Temp we have to figure out an effective control. Your kit goes a LONG way to doing that, and keeping it reasonably reliable.

Cheers,
MoulaZ

Supercharger rely on the crank to turn them and provide power. This takes power and lots of it. Parasitic loss of a supercharger like the V3 is probably in the neighbourhood of 80hp just to crank that blower over.

Turbos basically use exhaust gas, eliminating that parasitic loss from the drivetrain. It's like a free 80hp by comparison.

In a nutshell there is your instant difference between the two, and why supercharger tend to put out less than their turbo brethren. And as far as supercharger go th V3 is more efficient than most of the other types at 78%.

I'm kinda new to Superchargers, but I know having a Turbo in the path of exhaust also also robs some power, curious how much though, like 15-30?.

And as for Superchargers I think 80hp is a bit high though for the V3, if I had to take a punt I'd say in the region of 50hp.

I've heard some general rule of thumbs like '5hp per PSI' for a Supercharger or 'for every 100hp you make, it cost 30hp for a SC & 10hp for a Turbo'. Just wonder how applicable those are to our circumstances.

I don't know what the rule of thumb is exactly, but suffice to say it robs substantially more to turn the supercharger. I put out 80 as I've heard it several times with this kit, others have speculated 100. At the end of the day it's neither here nor there though.

The Stillen kit, and information based thereon also considers both the stock Stillen heat exchanger as well as the poor MAF placement. That's the quest I'm on right now is with correcting both of those difficiencies how much better can it get as an improved air to water setup.

A similar setup to how I will be running, except full speed density tuning whereas I will likely be a hybrid when Seb tunes it finally in the coming weeks after the last parts arrive and my custom charge pipe is made, is running 525whp on the track regularly in Texas heat. And I don't mean 1320 where he's sitting at least 20 minutes between passes. I believe he has the stock V3 where mine has the si trim upgraded impeller - I also have 9 psi pulley but aren't running it until I know where this set up is capable of, or not.

How are you running the new charge pipe?



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The same path but with BOV inline and a lengthened Y section putting the MAF right in front of the TB in separate pipes so they aren't measuring the same air.

I was hoping you were going to say that, one pipe with both MAFs doesn't work.


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So your not air cooling it?


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I think he is saying he will be putting the mafs after the Y, right before throttle bodies. This could make for a rough idle and harsh cruising but we will see.

But, chase, are you saying you are pulling the cooler out of the mani?

It does if you're full speed density tuning.

Sure, using air to cool the water which cools the air :icon14:

That's true but my car is a 7at so you can't do that.


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Are you going to use a frozen boost cooler then? If so do you need one? I have one in my garage, I tried that first.


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Hadn't considered that. Makes sense now that you mention it.

Already have one mounted up thanks. In the final lap of my install.

It will work for short runs but if you plan to track the car the a2a would work way better.


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No the cooler in the manifold is staying, would be nothing to cool the air if I did that.

I ran through the plan with Seb before starting my build (and during, repeatedly lol) and he suggested it would make for a smoother idle with that setup than full SD tuning, and would work well together as a whole. Guess we will find out soon enough.

Won't argue that point, and I'll likely end up there. But this is at least going to be a whole lot better than the stock Stillen setup.

It will be better as long as it's short burst. It was way better than the Stillen cooler but a 25 min track session would get it crazy hot! I liked it and it was an improvement but a2a is far better for a track situation, if you only push it 20 seconds at a time it will work fine.


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