NA 370z on e85

RLami · 09-23-2014, 08:47 PM

Boy? appreciate it. Just trying to get some constructive conversation going. There is going to be a fixed loss of AFR given a specific blend of Eth that you use. I've never heard of this sensor being used in any application that I've researched. I can see them using it in OE applications as they are going for reliability and the average joe not knowing their head from there foot.

You just account for that loss and adjust fueling from there. So with a little math and testing you can absolutely tune for it with no 'sensor'.

Plenty of people have tested E85 knock volatility up to 13/1 AFR on boosted applications with no knock or detonation that you speak of.

1slow370 · 09-24-2014, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLami

Boy? appreciate it. Just trying to get some constructive conversation going. There is going to be a fixed loss of AFR given a specific blend of Eth that you use. I've never heard of this sensor being used in any application that I've researched. I can see them using it in OE applications as they are going for reliability and the average joe not knowing their head from there foot.

You just account for that loss and adjust fueling from there. So with a little math and testing you can absolutely tune for it with no 'sensor'.

Plenty of people have tested E85 knock volatility up to 13/1 AFR on boosted applications with no knock or detonation that you speak of.

OK ms3 girl? haltech, aem, ecutek(just not our platform) all allow for the addition of a fuel alcohol sensor, because if you tune on e85 for the most power it is all about advancing the timing as far as you can due to the increased octane of the fuel, so if you tuned the car at 70% alcohol content but then ran only 20% alcohol content you WOULD have serious problems.

Ok after reading another one of your posts we mean two different things by mixing, you mean running a different percentage than 100 and i mean that you can't roll up to the pump with 3/4 of a tank of regular and top it off with e85 (unless that is how you did it every time) the other main issue is that if you mix from a 1/4 tank of gas and then fill it with e85(64% alcohol), if you go back to the pump next time and fill up with e85 you will be running a higher percentage (80% alcohol)

RLami · 09-24-2014, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

OK ms3 girl? haltech, aem, ecutek(just not our platform) all allow for the addition of a fuel alcohol sensor, because if you tune on e85 for the most power it is all about advancing the timing as far as you can due to the increased octane of the fuel, so if you tuned the car at 70% alcohol content but then ran only 20% alcohol content you WOULD have serious problems.

Or just keep coming across as condescending. Whatever.

That's great that you can tune for specific amounts of Eth with a sensor, but we're talking fixed amounts here. E85 has a fixed (relative) content of alcohol. I wouldn't recommend running it in the winter, as the Alcohol content is reduced for cold start purposes. The key is that you do not *NEED* a sensor. I'm specifically discussing a *PARTIAL* tank of E85 at summer blend ratios of ~83%. The content of 25% E85/75% 91 could be anywhere from 1.75-2.2 gallons on a 10 gallon tank if we account for the Alcohol content falling to 70%. thats 17.5-22% Ethanol content, and while that may seem like a large fluctuation, in the grand scheme of things the lower volatility of E85 still makes it safer than tuning with an also inexact Octane of 91.

1slow370 · 09-24-2014, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLami

Or just keep coming across as condescending. Whatever.

That's great that you can tune for specific amounts of Eth with a sensor, but we're talking fixed amounts here. E85 has a fixed (relative) content of alcohol. I wouldn't recommend running it in the winter, as the Alcohol content is reduced for cold start purposes. The key is that you do not *NEED* a sensor. I'm specifically discussing a *PARTIAL* tank of E85 at summer blend ratios of ~83%. The content of 25% E85/75% 91 could be anywhere from 1.75-2.2 gallons on a 10 gallon tank if we account for the Alcohol content falling to 70%. thats 17.5-22% Ethanol content, and while that may seem like a large fluctuation, in the grand scheme of things the lower volatility of E85 still makes it safer than tuning with an also inexact Octane of 91.

Or make a mountain out of a mole hill.

I see where you are going with it now and at that low of a percentage I really don't think you are getting the real benefits of going through all the trouble of running e85, at best you would be sitting around 93 octane ish plus or minus a couple points, when full e85 is slightly over 100octane. On a turbo platform i could see it working ok, but full e85 is still going to make more, on an na car you would really want to take advantage of running an oxyfuel as much as possible by running a higher percentage.

If we could run a standalone on this car the fuel alcohol sensor would really shine, you can set them up to increase boost, fueling, and timing as the alcohol percentage goes up and that gives you a lot of versatility, it also accounts for cheap or oxy gas because most fuels now have 10% ethanol in them anyway, it lets you extract every last horsepower in the system under all fuel conditions.

RLami · 09-24-2014, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

Or make a mountain out of a mole hill.

I see where you are going with it now and at that low of a percentage I really don't think you are getting the real benefits of going through all the trouble of running e85, at best you would be sitting around 93 octane ish plus or minus a couple points, when full e85 is slightly over 100octane. On a turbo platform i could see it working ok, but full e85 is still going to make more, on an na car you would really want to take advantage of running an oxyfuel as much as possible by running a higher percentage.

If we could run a standalone on this car the fuel alcohol sensor would really shine, you can set them up to increase boost, fueling, and timing as the alcohol percentage goes up and that gives you a lot of versatility, it also accounts for cheap or oxy gas because most fuels now have 10% ethanol in them anyway, it lets you extract every last horsepower in the system under all fuel conditions.

I'm just pointing out the fact that you probably wouldn't roll up to someone you didn't know on the street or just met in general and call them "boy". Just didn't seem warranted. No worries though.

And, now that's getting to my question! I hate to ride the MS3, but through my experiences people on that platform really increase their timing. By as much as 5-6* advanced @ redline over similar 93 octane tunes. I know that with boost it's a different animal, and increasing timing along with boost is a 2 headed benefit.

At what point do we see diminishing returns on timing advance in regards to actual gains on this platform, and I'm curious to see how meth injection or E blends could help this.

Im interested in a blend, because ideally you wouldn't need to change much, if anything, in regards to fuel system.

1slow370 · 09-24-2014, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLami

I'm just pointing out the fact that you probably wouldn't roll up to someone you didn't know on the street or just met in general and call them "boy". Just didn't seem warranted. No worries though.

And, now that's getting to my question! I hate to ride the MS3, but through my experiences people on that platform really increase their timing. By as much as 5-6* advanced @ redline over similar 93 octane tunes. I know that with boost it's a different animal, and increasing timing along with boost is a 2 headed benefit.

At what point do we see diminishing returns on timing advance in regards to actual gains on this platform, and I'm curious to see how meth injection or E blends could help this.

Im interested in a blend, because ideally you wouldn't need to change much, if anything, in regards to fuel system.

I am na with a few special bolt on's and I am out of injector on 91. a 255 is an easy relatively cheap add on that settles the pump away and I am going to need bigger injectors anyway, so once i finish up with the cam and head gasket change I'm just going to throw in a surge pump with a 400lph pump in it (super overkill but I may add a small turbo) and some bigger injectors. The nylon/hard line on the z is fine for e85 it is the same stuff all the flex fuel vehicles use. There isn't much to change and the motor LOVES timing so from what I have seen there really is no point to not run full e85 (unless you are purely concerned with keeping fuel costs down lol)

RLami · 09-24-2014, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

I am na with a few special bolt on's and I am out of injector on 91. a 255 is an easy relatively cheap add on that settles the pump away and I am going to need bigger injectors anyway, so once i finish up with the cam and head gasket change I'm just going to throw in a surge pump with a 400lph pump in it (super overkill but I may add a small turbo) and some bigger injectors. The nylon/hard line on the z is fine for e85 it is the same stuff all the flex fuel vehicles use. There isn't much to change and the motor LOVES timing so from what I have seen there really is no point to not run full e85 (unless you are purely concerned with keeping fuel costs down lol)

Wow, I never would have guessed you would max out fuel on a 91 tune! welcome back to the port injection world for me lol.

Good info. appreciate it.

RLami · 09-24-2014, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

OK ms3 girl? haltech, aem, ecutek(just not our platform) all allow for the addition of a fuel alcohol sensor, because if you tune on e85 for the most power it is all about advancing the timing as far as you can due to the increased octane of the fuel, so if you tuned the car at 70% alcohol content but then ran only 20% alcohol content you WOULD have serious problems.

Ok after reading another one of your posts we mean two different things by mixing, you mean running a different percentage than 100 and i mean that you can't roll up to the pump with 3/4 of a tank of regular and top it off with e85 (unless that is how you did it every time) the other main issue is that if you mix from a 1/4 tank of gas and then fill it with e85(64% alcohol), if you go back to the pump next time and fill up with e85 you will be running a higher percentage (80% alcohol)

Yes, comm breakdown possibly.

You would never truely fill up in the traditional sense. You would always just put in x amount of E85 and Y amount of gasoline. So say you fill up at a 1/4 tank every time, and always put in 2.5 gallons of E85 and 7.5 Gallons of Gas. Always keeping your ratio 25%, but never running the pump until auto shutoff.

09-23-2014, 08:47 PM	#1 (permalink)
RLami Base Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 48 Drives: 2015 Focus ST ST3 Rep Power: 13	Boy? appreciate it. Just trying to get some constructive conversation going. There is going to be a fixed loss of AFR given a specific blend of Eth that you use. I've never heard of this sensor being used in any application that I've researched. I can see them using it in OE applications as they are going for reliability and the average joe not knowing their head from there foot. You just account for that loss and adjust fueling from there. So with a little math and testing you can absolutely tune for it with no 'sensor'. Plenty of people have tested E85 knock volatility up to 13/1 AFR on boosted applications with no knock or detonation that you speak of. Last edited by RLami; 09-23-2014 at 09:07 PM.

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