Waiting to Inhale VQ37VHR tuning /modablity

Red__Zed · 08-31-2011, 08:58 PM

First off, there's a little bit of confusion going around about a lot of things, so I'm going to try to clear that up.

For the purpose of track discussion, stock-vs-stock is kind of pointless. First off, the Z can't run stock, so it is really not in it's favor to do that. Second, no one runs a completely stock car. Things like brakes, tires, and a reflash are a pretty safe bet, and I think allowing that and a oil cooler makes sense. So let's assume all the cars are running a lightweight set of rims that fit comfortably on the car in question-- something like the beefed up setup most of you are running on your Z's. Add track pads, etc, and give the cars a reflash. You're talking a very different game in this case from cars that are artificially limited by various things from the factory (less extreme version of the oil issues on the Z). You can uncork 30+AWHP with a $300 AP on a Subie, and the tire difference is huge too. The fact that the RE050a's grip better than SP's doesn't make the Z a better car. Part of the reason the Nismo tests so much better (besides just wider tires, etc) is the superior Advan's it comes with.

For the stock classing on autocross, you do need to understand there are a lot of other factors that come into play, like rules that benefit certain cars. Also, it's less important what a car runs in, but it is big deal when it gets moved. It means people are running the car, and failing-- and it usually means skilled people are giving it a go.
With the Z, the Nismo is basically allowed to run much fatter tires than anyone else, and in AutoX, that is huge. So Stock classing can give some misleading results-- from things like Nismos running 305s and WRXs running 245 series tires. That alone can be 5-6 seconds on most courses, and it's not really representative of the car's performance.

In regards to VIR, certain tracks benefit certain cars.
A car with good aero and a decent trap speed is usually going to dominate at VIR. At Here, the Nismo having an oil cooler is also going to be a huge benefit, since most cars are cooking it at the end of that straight--kind of an unfair benefit. Consider it offset by the fact that C&D maybe didn't get in a killer lap (though they claim they did).
It has always frustrated me that C&D uses VIR for their Lightning Lap...I wish they would pick a more balanced track. If they chose, say, Summit, the Subaru would probably be tearing things up--which is also not representative of performance. So quoting those numbers is pretty misleading. Allowing $500 to be spent on cars, (oil cooler for the Z, tune for mustang), a V6 mustang will put several seconds on the Z, and Jared will tell you that's not possible...

Methodical4u · 08-31-2011, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

First off, there's a little bit of confusion going around about a lot of things, so I'm going to try to clear that up.

For the purpose of track discussion, stock-vs-stock is kind of pointless. First off, the Z can't run stock, so it is really not in it's favor to do that. Second, no one runs a completely stock car. Things like brakes, tires, and a reflash are a pretty safe bet, and I think allowing that and a oil cooler makes sense. So let's assume all the cars are running a lightweight set of rims that fit comfortably on the car in question-- something like the beefed up setup most of you are running on your Z's. Add track pads, etc, and give the cars a reflash. You're talking a very different game in this case from cars that are artificially limited by various things from the factory (less extreme version of the oil issues on the Z). You can uncork 30+AWHP with a $300 AP on a Subie, and the tire difference is huge too. The fact that the RE050a's grip better than SP's doesn't make the Z a better car. Part of the reason the Nismo tests so much better (besides just wider tires, etc) is the superior Advan's it comes with.

For the stock classing on autocross, you do need to understand there are a lot of other factors that come into play, like rules that benefit certain cars. Also, it's less important what a car runs in, but it is big deal when it gets moved. It means people are running the car, and failing-- and it usually means skilled people are giving it a go.
With the Z, the Nismo is basically allowed to run much fatter tires than anyone else, and in AutoX, that is huge. So Stock classing can give some misleading results-- from things like Nismos running 305s and WRXs running 245 series tires. That alone can be 5-6 seconds on most courses, and it's not really representative of the car's performance.

In regards to VIR, certain tracks benefit certain cars.
A car with good aero and a decent trap speed is usually going to dominate at VIR. At Here, the Nismo having an oil cooler is also going to be a huge benefit, since most cars are cooking it at the end of that straight--kind of an unfair benefit. Consider it offset by the fact that C&D maybe didn't get in a killer lap (though they claim they did).
It has always frustrated me that C&D uses VIR for their Lightning Lap...I wish they would pick a more balanced track. If they chose, say, Summit, the Subaru would probably be tearing things up--which is also not representative of performance. So quoting those numbers is pretty misleading. Allowing $500 to be spent on cars, (oil cooler for the Z, tune for mustang), a V6 mustang will put several seconds on the Z, and Jared will tell you that's not possible...

The problem is again... that you can pick a more "balanced" track basically meaning one that has less top end since the Subaru will get outrun badly by a Z in that area is that THAT track is now more favorable to the Suby because of more turns, and many of those turns that again a car with S-AWC or SAWD will benefit greatly ... like the Z's tires.... so while the Z can get wheelspin, the little Suby can just be getting through the turns easily because a computer is doing all of the work and the work it's not doing, the AWD system is.

There is really no fairness in trying to contest a RWD Z to an AWD turbocharged car. Yes, you can get 30 whp JUST from a tune on a Subaru.. I don't know on a stock 370 what you would get, but it aint that.

Anyway, there are benefits to each car... IMO the wider tires and them being Advans is equal to the WRX being a computer controlled AWD car. That's my opinion at least.

And a V6 Mustang? Come on man.

Red__Zed · 08-31-2011, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Methodical4u

The problem is again... that you can pick a more "balanced" track basically meaning one that has less top end since the Subaru will get outrun badly by a Z in that area is that THAT track is now more favorable to the Suby because of more turns, and many of those turns that again a car with S-AWC or SAWD will benefit greatly ... like the Z's tires.... so while the Z can get wheelspin, the little Suby can just be getting through the turns easily because a computer is doing all of the work and the work it's not doing, the AWD system is.

There is really no fairness in trying to contest a RWD Z to an AWD turbocharged car. Yes, you can get 30 whp JUST from a tune on a Subaru.. I don't know on a stock 370 what you would get, but it aint that.

Anyway, there are benefits to each car... IMO the wider tires and them being Advans is equal to the WRX being a computer controlled AWD car. That's my opinion at least.

And a V6 Mustang? Come on man.

I said that. Summit point is an example of a track better for the subie. But doing something like Laguna Seca would be great-- it's an epic track, and I care about LS lap times.

Again, they are different cars, but they do "compete" in that people cross shop them. People that plan on tracking their cars almost universally pick something else.

The V6 beats the Z on most US tracks, just so you know. It's actually faster than the GT on tight tracks, and is usually just a few seconds behind on other tracks. With the limiter removed (top speed is 117 for insurance reasons), it puts .5-1.5 seconds on the Z around VIR.

red6spd · 08-31-2011, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

I said that. Summit point is an example of a track better for the subie. But doing something like Laguna Seca would be great-- it's an epic track, and I care about LS lap times.

Again, they are different cars, but they do "compete" in that people cross shop them. People that plan on tracking their cars almost universally pick something else.

The V6 beats the Z on most US tracks, just so you know. It's actually faster than the GT on tight tracks, and is usually just a few seconds behind on other tracks. With the limiter removed (top speed is 117 for insurance reasons), it puts .5-1.5 seconds on the Z around VIR.

Where are you getting all this infor?? The V6 Stang is faster on most US tracks then the Z?? I'm just curious? How do you know the V6 Stang puts .5-1.5 seconds on the Z at VIR?? CarAndDriver never tested one that was modded with a tune.

Red__Zed · 08-31-2011, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red6spd

Where are you getting all this infor?? The V6 Stang is faster on most US tracks then the Z?? I'm just curious? How do you know the V6 Stang puts .5-1.5 seconds on the Z at VIR?? CarAndDriver never tested one that was modded with a tune.

curiously, car and driver isn't actually the only source for number. In fact, they are one of the worst.

Methodical4u · 08-31-2011, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

curiously, car and driver isn't actually the only source for number. In fact, they are one of the worst.

ok, let's say that with the courses you have driven, other cars you've owned.. someone from Nissan says "hey, what would you like to see added to the car?" You say __________________? Let's say power is limited only to the current NA mods, so you can get maybe 330 whp at best when it comes to power.

b1adesofcha0s · 08-31-2011, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Methodical4u

ok, let's say that with the courses you have driven, other cars you've owned.. someone from Nissan says "hey, what would you like to see added to the car?" You say __________________? Let's say power is limited only to the current NA mods, so you can get maybe 330 whp at best when it comes to power.

Meh I don't like that question. Power is what I would want more of. Then weight reduction + balance. Also an actual DCT. Basically I want a lighter GT-R

Red__Zed · 08-31-2011, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Methodical4u

ok, let's say that with the courses you have driven, other cars you've owned.. someone from Nissan says "hey, what would you like to see added to the car?" You say __________________? Let's say power is limited only to the current NA mods, so you can get maybe 330 whp at best when it comes to power.

I think I said this earlier, but the things I would want changed are these.

Slight tweaking of engine/different engine. I want something with better top end behavior (the NVH up high is pretty bad). I could live without this if the other items were changed.

Oil cooler and diff cooler available from the factory. Both of these are much needed items. Most people don't know about the diff, but it tends to overheat something terrible with any hard driving.

Real LSD available from factory--preferably a Torsen. The VLSD doesn't cut it for real driving.

The biggest thing though, would be the weight distro/inherent understeer. I think if they could drop a few pounds from the engine, or move it an inch or two back, the car would be brilliant. I could forgive the other shortcomings if they did that.

The Z really has a brilliant chassis-- it's very stiff, and inspires confidence. A few small changes and it really could have been a home run IMO. I think that with the same setup, but the engine back an inch or so, we'd see the Z tearing some stuff up.

red6spd · 08-31-2011, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

First off, there's a little bit of confusion going around about a lot of things, so I'm going to try to clear that up.

For the purpose of track discussion, stock-vs-stock is kind of pointless. First off, the Z can't run stock, so it is really not in it's favor to do that. Second, no one runs a completely stock car. Things like brakes, tires, and a reflash are a pretty safe bet, and I think allowing that and a oil cooler makes sense. So let's assume all the cars are running a lightweight set of rims that fit comfortably on the car in question-- something like the beefed up setup most of you are running on your Z's. Add track pads, etc, and give the cars a reflash. You're talking a very different game in this case from cars that are artificially limited by various things from the factory (less extreme version of the oil issues on the Z). You can uncork 30+AWHP with a $300 AP on a Subie, and the tire difference is huge too. The fact that the RE050a's grip better than SP's doesn't make the Z a better car. Part of the reason the Nismo tests so much better (besides just wider tires, etc) is the superior Advan's it comes with.

For the stock classing on autocross, you do need to understand there are a lot of other factors that come into play, like rules that benefit certain cars. Also, it's less important what a car runs in, but it is big deal when it gets moved. It means people are running the car, and failing-- and it usually means skilled people are giving it a go.
With the Z, the Nismo is basically allowed to run much fatter tires than anyone else, and in AutoX, that is huge. So Stock classing can give some misleading results-- from things like Nismos running 305s and WRXs running 245 series tires. That alone can be 5-6 seconds on most courses, and it's not really representative of the car's performance.

In regards to VIR, certain tracks benefit certain cars.
A car with good aero and a decent trap speed is usually going to dominate at VIR. At Here, the Nismo having an oil cooler is also going to be a huge benefit, since most cars are cooking it at the end of that straight--kind of an unfair benefit. Consider it offset by the fact that C&D maybe didn't get in a killer lap (though they claim they did).
It has always frustrated me that C&D uses VIR for their Lightning Lap...I wish they would pick a more balanced track. If they chose, say, Summit, the Subaru would probably be tearing things up--which is also not representative of performance. So quoting those numbers is pretty misleading. Allowing $500 to be spent on cars, (oil cooler for the Z, tune for mustang), a V6 mustang will put several seconds on the Z, and Jared will tell you that's not possible...

The WRX has gotten soft and fat. It is no where near the cheap killer handling car it use to be. And its slower then Z. I have given you fact after fact about how the Z does compete with the WRX/STI. Go ahead tune your Rex, a Z is still gonna walk you. And if a V6 Mustang with a tune (because it has a limited speed of like 117 or some crap) is going to put several seconds on a Z then its gonna do the same to a WRX/STI. I dont understand how you go off saying the Z does not compete with the WRX/STI. The Z is faster, weighs around the same, has more HP, brakes better, and pulls better skidpad numbers. Guess the Cayman S cant compete with a $26,000 WRX let alone an STI huh?? But no I'm sorry that is all info I learned from reading so that means its all made up correct?

Red__Zed · 08-31-2011, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red6spd

The WRX has gotten soft and fat. It is no where near the cheap killer handling car it use to be. And its slower then Z. I have given you fact after fact about how the Z does compete with the WRX/STI. Go ahead tune your Rex, a Z is still gonna walk you. And if a V6 Mustang with a tune (because it has a limited speed of like 117 or some crap) is going to put several seconds on a Z then its gonna do the same to a WRX/STI. I dont understand how you go off saying the Z does not compete with the WRX/STI. The Z is faster, weighs around the same, has more HP, brakes better, and pulls better skidpad numbers. Guess the Cayman S cant compete with a $26,000 WRX let alone an STI huh?? But no I'm sorry that is all info I learned from reading so that means its all made up correct?

I say it doesn't compete because since it has come out, it has trailed the B stock class. It now trails the C stock class. It's lays slower times than the WRX on most tracks.

There's no doubt that the Subie's have gotten fat. My 04 would literally destroy my 11 around most course. That doesn't change the fact that I can put down some brutal times in the WRX. I borrowed an 11 from a guy down here, and was A stock competitive....In the Z, I'm middle of B stock.

Magazine test numbers mean very little. Get some track time in, then come back once you have enough knowledge to speak on this subject.

red6spd · 08-31-2011, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

I say it doesn't compete because since it has come out, it has trailed the B stock class. It now trails the C stock class. It's lays slower times than the WRX on most tracks.

There's no doubt that the Subie's have gotten fat. My 04 would literally destroy my 11 around most course. That doesn't change the fact that I can put down some brutal times in the WRX. I borrowed an 11 from a guy down here, and was A stock competitive....In the Z, I'm middle of B stock.

Magazine test numbers mean very little. Get some track time in, then come back once you have enough knowledge to speak on this subject.

Your just a regular Mario Andretti huh? A stock competitve in a Rex?

Red__Zed · 08-31-2011, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red6spd

Your just a regular Mario Andretti huh? A stock competitve in a Rex?

worst part is, I'm a mediocre driver at best.

b1adesofcha0s · 08-31-2011, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

worst part is, I'm a mediocre driver at best.

Nothing compared to me. I'm so much better

Red__Zed · 08-31-2011, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b1adesofcha0s

Nothing compared to me. I'm so much better

ZOMG watch out for that truck!

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08-31-2011, 08:58 PM	#1 (permalink)
Red__Zed A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: window seat Posts: 28,940 Drives: Mostly on two wheels Rep Power: 121	First off, there's a little bit of confusion going around about a lot of things, so I'm going to try to clear that up. For the purpose of track discussion, stock-vs-stock is kind of pointless. First off, the Z can't run stock, so it is really not in it's favor to do that. Second, no one runs a completely stock car. Things like brakes, tires, and a reflash are a pretty safe bet, and I think allowing that and a oil cooler makes sense. So let's assume all the cars are running a lightweight set of rims that fit comfortably on the car in question-- something like the beefed up setup most of you are running on your Z's. Add track pads, etc, and give the cars a reflash. You're talking a very different game in this case from cars that are artificially limited by various things from the factory (less extreme version of the oil issues on the Z). You can uncork 30+AWHP with a $300 AP on a Subie, and the tire difference is huge too. The fact that the RE050a's grip better than SP's doesn't make the Z a better car. Part of the reason the Nismo tests so much better (besides just wider tires, etc) is the superior Advan's it comes with. For the stock classing on autocross, you do need to understand there are a lot of other factors that come into play, like rules that benefit certain cars. Also, it's less important what a car runs in, but it is big deal when it gets moved. It means people are running the car, and failing-- and it usually means skilled people are giving it a go. With the Z, the Nismo is basically allowed to run much fatter tires than anyone else, and in AutoX, that is huge. So Stock classing can give some misleading results-- from things like Nismos running 305s and WRXs running 245 series tires. That alone can be 5-6 seconds on most courses, and it's not really representative of the car's performance. In regards to VIR, certain tracks benefit certain cars. A car with good aero and a decent trap speed is usually going to dominate at VIR. At Here, the Nismo having an oil cooler is also going to be a huge benefit, since most cars are cooking it at the end of that straight--kind of an unfair benefit. Consider it offset by the fact that C&D maybe didn't get in a killer lap (though they claim they did). It has always frustrated me that C&D uses VIR for their Lightning Lap...I wish they would pick a more balanced track. If they chose, say, Summit, the Subaru would probably be tearing things up--which is also not representative of performance. So quoting those numbers is pretty misleading. Allowing $500 to be spent on cars, (oil cooler for the Z, tune for mustang), a V6 mustang will put several seconds on the Z, and Jared will tell you that's not possible...