No Full Synthetic Oil in the Z?

kannibul · 11-10-2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imag

Yeah... you're totally wrong. Anyone doing an oil analysis at the first change, bike or car, will show you that there are metal shavings in the oil from break-in. I actually subscribe to the fast break-in method, but to say it's all broken in on the test stand is just misinformation. It's no wonder that the bike shop laughed at you.

Also, during break-in, your car burns oil, so synthetic is not desirable (it doesn't burn well). I actually think this Z just burns some oil as part of normal operation, so I'm going to stick with the Nissan Ester, but I think people with good synthetic will likely be fine.

And: for those excited because their motor hasn't seized up in with ~15K miles - that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of any oil, no matter what it is. You could not change the oil at all and get 15K miles trouble free. Not saying your oil change is wrong, just that that data point is pretty much useless.

Metal shavings...no ****. Physics...man, physics...

Your cylinders are honed into a file-like crosshatch pattern when new, and when the engine is first fired up (with oil in it), they "file" down everything and get the rings seated.

And where do those shavings go? Into the pan, with the oil, that ships with your car that you drain out at your first change, and some shavings stay in the engine because you can't get them all out...so they're there until you're ran enough oil through the engine and filter...

Also numerous cars come with synthetic oil from the factory...nothing wrong with using synthetic from the moment you get a new car home, drop the oil out of the pan, and refill it...

Also, in chosing the correct oil - if it meets Nissan's spec in the manual (I don't remember what it is, but it's common) - Nissan can not deny a warranty claim over it. You don't have to use Nissan's oil. There is no "but I think it'll be fine" - fact is, it will be fine.

Nissan can recommend you use Nissan air filters and oil filters too, but that doesn't mean anything - they're just trying to get you to buy something they have a mark-up for, instead of what could potentially be better for your car.

Case and point - Nissan Ester oil - is it synthetic or not? Is it Group III, Group IV, or Group V...?

And the bike shop didn't "laugh" at me...they wanted me to buy their oil, and take OUT the synthetic. Sound familiar?

1slow370 · 11-12-2009, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Metal shavings...no ****. Physics...man, physics...

Your cylinders are honed into a file-like crosshatch pattern when new, and when the engine is first fired up (with oil in it), they "file" down everything and get the rings seated.

And where do those shavings go? Into the pan, with the oil, that ships with your car that you drain out at your first change, and some shavings stay in the engine because you can't get them all out...so they're there until you're ran enough oil through the engine and filter...

Also numerous cars come with synthetic oil from the factory...nothing wrong with using synthetic from the moment you get a new car home, drop the oil out of the pan, and refill it...

I think i think you mean physimabullshics

A note on honing: Engine bolcks are bored with indexable carbide boring tools. the finish is WAYYY smoother from this tool than the hones(a proper OEM machining center can achieve a 16 microinch finish on the bore) problem is it isn't perfectly round so manufacturers bust out the hone and get the bores to within .003-.005 of finish size. Now here's the important part after the rough hone they use a finish hone to smooth out the rough hones surface and clean up the walls of cylinders(you have to look through a stereoscope at hundreds of metal samples before you fully understand what i mean when i say that two parts can have identical surface roughness but be totally different). The goal of honing is to create the roughest finish possible while allowing the rings to move freely and seal effectively for the purpose of OIL RETENTION. You have an aluminum block and steel rings chief the rings "seat" in the cylinder walls kinda like breaking the tips off of all of the teeth on your file. the shavings in the oil are all alluminum. Magnetic drain plugs on our cars don't really do much because of this(they do pick up some stuff from the bearing to journal wear, oil pump gears, and the timing set though).

Oems that do use the factory fill of synthetic often use phosphorous and zinc loaded additives in that first batch of oil as well to ease break in. They tell you not to use it afterwards because it tends to have an effect on emissions over time. oil used to be loaded with it in order to lubricate the old flat tappet cams but that too has been cleaned up now to the point where if you own an old 60's era musclecar you should be running special oils or additives as they have been cleaned out of almost all oils on the market.

370Zsteve · 11-12-2009, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

I think i think you mean physimabullshics

+1 rep

Zless@arizona · 11-14-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

"Metal shavings..." Your cylinders are honed into a file-like crosshatch pattern when new, and when the engine is first fired up (with oil in it), they "file" down everything and get the rings seated.

And where do those shavings go? Into the pan, with the oil, that ships with your car that you drain out at your first change, and some shavings stay in the engine because you can't get them all out...so they're there until you're ran enough oil through the engine and filter.

Also numerous cars come with synthetic oil from the factory...nothing wrong with using synthetic from the moment you get a new car home, drop the oil out of the pan, and refill it.

Case and point - Nissan Ester oil - is it synthetic or not? Is it Group III, Group IV, or Group V...?

kannibul: Excellent points! Most important to me is that you mentioned Group III/IV/V oils, and that is the crux of the matter!
.....IIRC, G-III is the "hydro-cracked" oils; G-IV is PAO (polyalfaolefin) oils; G-V is the ester oils.
.....the G-III oils are the ones that Castrol uses, and is allowed to call it "Synthetic" due to a lawsuit. G-III oils are processed from petroleum-base stocks and are not "Synthetic" as the industry and scientists who created synthetics understand the term. I do not use Castrol G-III oils because they lied and used attorneys and judges to be able to label G-III oil as synthetic.
.....In the early 80s, I started using Mobil1. I copied a test run by Ford that I included for my thesis: New oil filter and Mobil1 oil change; keep in vehicle for 100,000 miles (include 15,000 mile filter changes and oil top off but no drain); Arizona 1977 280-Z. The Ford engineer examined the engine after the 100,000 Michigan Winter/Summer miles and it's specs were within factory new! No issues with my inline-6!
.....G-IV ester oils are mainly used in racing vehicles. The predominant race-only use is due to two characteristics unique to esters: they do not last long, and they absorb water. Race use heats the engine and oil so that the water evaporates--driving your 370Z to work may not reach the oil temperature necessary to remove water.
.....Nissan's recommendation to use their proprietary ester blend probably solves the water retention issue, and provides the optimum lubrication for their variable-valve system.
.....Corvette crankcases are filled at the factory with Mobil1 and have a 15,000 mile drain interval. I was a test driver and prototype development technician for GM, and we only used Mobil1 for the Corvette engines for top off and changes. The engines are/were run for a million miles basically non-stop 24/7, then disassembled and inspected.
.....There's a reason GM and Nissan recommend certain oils for the high-end engines. The VQ37VHR is not a Chevrolet 350 c.i. V-8 with hydraulic actuated pushrod valves, and one should not use the same oil for both engines.
.....Some 370Z owners on this site are switching to Motul which is mostly an ester-based oil. My concern is the buildup of water in the crankcase if the outings don't include at least one hour each day of redline racing on the local track.
......I can almost guarantee that using the Nissan Ester blend will be the best choice. I can not state that using a different synthetic will harm your engine--only the experience and reports of the 370Z members will identify issues. I will recommend staying away from conventional petroleum-based oils for the VQ37VHR.

R/S, Greg

kdo2milger · 11-14-2009, 01:38 PM

nice informative response greg

i was trying to get motul ester based synthetic here in my area and to no avail...

i ended up getting nissan ester from my local dealership...parts manager gave me a discount on it so i was happy and ill probably just stick with it..or atleast until more info is compiled and the availability of syn esters becomes more prevalent in my area...

Zless@arizona · 11-14-2009, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kdo2milger

nice informative response greg

i ended up getting nissan ester from my local dealership. ill probably just stick with it until more info is compiled and the availability of syn esters becomes more prevalent in my area.

Thank you, sir! You all are looking for answers for your Zs; my goal is to share what I know if it helps you--no B.S.! It is my honor to have helped Travis with his dedicated race-Z.
.....kdo2milger, look at RedLine oils. Their stuff is also ester-based. See if they have a blend so that the water-issue is covered. You can order online! R/S, Greg

kdo2milger · 11-14-2009, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zless@arizona

Thank you, sir! You all are looking for answers for your Zs; my goal is to share what I know if it helps you--no B.S.! It is my honor to have helped Travis with his dedicated race-Z.
.....kdo2milger, look at RedLine oils. Their stuff is also ester-based. See if they have a blend so that the water-issue is covered. You can order online! R/S, Greg

ya, it was between redline and motul...i just couldnt justify shipping cost...thats why i was hunting locally...

i even had oriellys auto parts call their regional manager here and try to get motul and redline oils added to their store lineup...no can do at this time they say...

ill stick with nissan ester for now...

Modshack · 11-14-2009, 02:43 PM

Girls, girls, girls.....When was the last time you heard of an enfgine failure that was definitively caused by oil issues??......I'm guessing NEVER.,..Put whatever you want in the car...Chances are a few years from now you won't own it anyway..

370Zsteve · 11-14-2009, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

Put whatever you want in the car...Chances are a few years form now you won't own it anyway..

Actually, that just might end the thread right there!

Matt · 11-14-2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

Put whatever you want in the car...Chances are a few years form now you won't own it anyway..

Sticky this reply. LOL!

Zless@arizona · 11-15-2009, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

Girls, girls, girls.....When was the last time you heard of an enfgine failure that was definitively caused by oil issues??......I'm guessing NEVER.,..Put whatever you want in the car...Chances are a few years from now you won't own it anyway..

Re: "...(sic) enfgine failure..." The last time I was contacted to help with an engine failure was due to a stalled engine. I checked the oil level and found none on the dipstick. Attempts to rotate the crankshaft failed--the engine had seized due to no oil pressure/lubrication==>>it was a Toyota 2TC--as indestructible an engine ever built--the owner was, literally, handicapped, and should not have been driving the vehicle.
.....Re: "...put Whatever in the (sic) car..."; I have a Saturn I want to sell only to you, Modshack. I drained the oil and coolant, forced dirt into the oil fill port, put a brick on the accelerator pedal, and ran the engine bouncing off of the limiter for several minutes. The engine did not seize. We had to shut it down because we had to return to work (Saturn testing facility in North America ;-)
.....Maybe your "...put whatever you want in the car..." is correct and accurate and valid ;-) Personally, I use dirt! The car mentioned above was crushed. Greg

1slow370 · 11-17-2009, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zless@arizona

kannibul: Excellent points! Most important to me is that you mentioned Group III/IV/V oils, and that is the crux of the matter!
.....IIRC, G-III is the "hydro-cracked" oils; G-IV is PAO (polyalfaolefin) oils; G-V is the ester oils.
.....the G-III oils are the ones that Castrol uses, and is allowed to call it "Synthetic" due to a lawsuit. G-III oils are processed from petroleum-base stocks and are not "Synthetic" as the industry and scientists who created synthetics understand the term. I do not use Castrol G-III oils because they lied and used attorneys and judges to be able to label G-III oil as synthetic.
.....In the early 80s, I started using Mobil1. I copied a test run by Ford that I included for my thesis: New oil filter and Mobil1 oil change; keep in vehicle for 100,000 miles (include 15,000 mile filter changes and oil top off but no drain); Arizona 1977 280-Z. The Ford engineer examined the engine after the 100,000 Michigan Winter/Summer miles and it's specs were within factory new! No issues with my inline-6!
.....G-IV ester oils are mainly used in racing vehicles. The predominant race-only use is due to two characteristics unique to esters: they do not last long, and they absorb water. Race use heats the engine and oil so that the water evaporates--driving your 370Z to work may not reach the oil temperature necessary to remove water.
.....Nissan's recommendation to use their proprietary ester blend probably solves the water retention issue, and provides the optimum lubrication for their variable-valve system.
.....Corvette crankcases are filled at the factory with Mobil1 and have a 15,000 mile drain interval. I was a test driver and prototype development technician for GM, and we only used Mobil1 for the Corvette engines for top off and changes. The engines are/were run for a million miles basically non-stop 24/7, then disassembled and inspected.
.....There's a reason GM and Nissan recommend certain oils for the high-end engines. The VQ37VHR is not a Chevrolet 350 c.i. V-8 with hydraulic actuated pushrod valves, and one should not use the same oil for both engines.
.....Some 370Z owners on this site are switching to Motul which is mostly an ester-based oil. My concern is the buildup of water in the crankcase if the outings don't include at least one hour each day of redline racing on the local track.
......I can almost guarantee that using the Nissan Ester blend will be the best choice. I can not state that using a different synthetic will harm your engine--only the experience and reports of the 370Z members will identify issues. I will recommend staying away from conventional petroleum-based oils for the VQ37VHR.
R/S, Greg

1. don't give any credit to his explanation of how engine break-in works I addressed that already (nothing personal it's just wrong)

2. In about 3 of the other NISSAN ESTER OIL threads I and other people have already stated that nissan's "ester" oil is NOT a regular race ester oil in the that is is regular old crap oil with .5-1.5% of a special ester additive in it, and trace amounts of nano sized pieces of industrial abrasives.

To avoid people knowing how big of a scam it is NISSAN does not list the group rating for this oil because you cannot call it a group v ester oil since it is fundamentally a group II base stock. I don't see why nissan wouldn't use it in the factory fill because it is a $3 a quart oil. You need to realize that we are being charged $12.50 a quart in order to cover nissan's multiple patent cases, and the R/d cost of the initial devolpement of the oil which started way back before 2006 which is when nissan filed their international patent claim. Hell nissan doesn't even have to pay to package the oil headed to the factory as it probably comes in on a tanker and is pumped into dispensing system like most other auto manufacturers because it is stupid to pay a guy to sit there and open then pour 5 bottles of oil into every vehicle they make. If i sell you car and don't tell you a single thing about it or make a single claim, how can sue me later when after you drive it off the lot, the paint wash off with rain, the engine has 5 horsepower, windows do not move, the electrical system doesn't work in any temperature other than 60-70degs, and the interior is made from construction paper carefully folded/glued by underpaid chinese factory children?

Matt · 11-17-2009, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

2. In about 3 of the other NISSAN ESTER OIL threads I and other people have already stated that nissan's "ester" oil is NOT a regular race ester oil in the that is is regular old crap oil with .5-1.5% of a special ester additive in it, and trace amounts of nano sized pieces of industrial abrasives.

To avoid people knowing how big of a scam it is NISSAN does not list the group rating for this oil because you cannot call it a group v ester oil since it is fundamentally a group II base stock. I don't see why nissan wouldn't use it in the factory fill because it is a $3 a quart oil. You need to realize that we are being charged $12.50 a quart in order to cover nissan's multiple patent cases, and the R/d cost of the initial devolpement of the oil which started way back before 2006 which is when nissan filed their international patent claim. Hell nissan doesn't even have to pay to package the oil headed to the factory as it probably comes in on a tanker and is pumped into dispensing system like most other auto manufacturers because it is stupid to pay a guy to sit there and open then pour 5 bottles of oil into every vehicle they make. If i sell you car and don't tell you a single thing about it or make a single claim, how can sue me later when after you drive it off the lot, the paint wash off with rain, the engine has 5 horsepower, windows do not move, the electrical system doesn't work in any temperature other than 60-70degs, and the interior is made from construction paper carefully folded/glued by underpaid chinese factory children?

So you're saying you would recommend we use Nissan Ester Oil?

1slow370 · 11-17-2009, 06:29 AM

I'm saying it's up to you. Personally i think i'm ordering a crate of the new motul 300v for half the cost of the nissan oil and it's comparable to redline. although if you wanna talk transmissions after they replaced mine i put 50 miles on it and now it's going in storage because we have something called snow up here. When it gets out the first thing after throwing the battery back in and driving it home is going to be a few quarts of redline MT90. maybe a mix of nissan ester oil and motul? Who knows. I wish nissan would say more about the stuff so everyone wouldn't be getting so damn confused over it. Here's a quick check somebody who tracks their mileage wanna say what ti was before and after doing an ester to synthetic swap as that would directly indicate a change in friction reduction? If that comes out the same i say don't run the ester because you can run the synthetic longer for the same price. You know what if nobody has done it by spring i'll do it.

One thing is for sure though, DO NOT THINK THAT THE NISSAN OIL IS SYNTHETIC AND TRY TO PUSH IT OVER 3,500 MILES BETWEEN CHANGES. Even if it does indeed lubricate better (yet to be proven), It will still suffer thermal breakdown.

11-14-2009, 01:38 PM	#5 (permalink)
kdo2milger OG Priesthood Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Fargo, ND Posts: 17,859 Drives: NISMO T Rep Power: 61	nice informative response greg i was trying to get motul ester based synthetic here in my area and to no avail... i ended up getting nissan ester from my local dealership...parts manager gave me a discount on it so i was happy and ill probably just stick with it..or atleast until more info is compiled and the availability of syn esters becomes more prevalent in my area... __________________ Project *NISMO*

11-14-2009, 02:43 PM	#8 (permalink)
Modshack A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Greenville NC Posts: 2,883 Drives: 370Z Sport Rep Power: 978	Girls, girls, girls.....When was the last time you heard of an enfgine failure that was definitively caused by oil issues??......I'm guessing NEVER.,..Put whatever you want in the car...Chances are a few years from now you won't own it anyway.. __________________ Steal my car! (SOLD)...Now Porsche Cayman S Oil Cooler DIY: Here! Last edited by Modshack; 11-14-2009 at 06:56 PM.

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11-17-2009, 06:29 AM	#14 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7252	I'm saying it's up to you. Personally i think i'm ordering a crate of the new motul 300v for half the cost of the nissan oil and it's comparable to redline. although if you wanna talk transmissions after they replaced mine i put 50 miles on it and now it's going in storage because we have something called snow up here. When it gets out the first thing after throwing the battery back in and driving it home is going to be a few quarts of redline MT90. maybe a mix of nissan ester oil and motul? Who knows. I wish nissan would say more about the stuff so everyone wouldn't be getting so damn confused over it. Here's a quick check somebody who tracks their mileage wanna say what ti was before and after doing an ester to synthetic swap as that would directly indicate a change in friction reduction? If that comes out the same i say don't run the ester because you can run the synthetic longer for the same price. You know what if nobody has done it by spring i'll do it. One thing is for sure though, DO NOT THINK THAT THE NISSAN OIL IS SYNTHETIC AND TRY TO PUSH IT OVER 3,500 MILES BETWEEN CHANGES. Even if it does indeed lubricate better (yet to be proven), It will still suffer thermal breakdown.