No Full Synthetic Oil in the Z?

kannibul · 11-09-2009, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve

Where do you come up with this schitt?

Sorry, I assumed it was a standard industry-wide practice, but I guess I was referring to motorcycle engines as the basis of the second half of my comment.

The first half is just plain common-sense. Maybe the percentage is off...but whatever.

imag · 11-09-2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Sorry, I assumed it was a standard industry-wide practice, but I guess I was referring to motorcycle engines as the basis of the second half of my comment.

The first half is just plain common-sense. Maybe the percentage is off...but whatever.

Yeah... you're totally wrong. Anyone doing an oil analysis at the first change, bike or car, will show you that there are metal shavings in the oil from break-in. I actually subscribe to the fast break-in method, but to say it's all broken in on the test stand is just misinformation. It's no wonder that the bike shop laughed at you.

Also, during break-in, your car burns oil, so synthetic is not desirable (it doesn't burn well). I actually think this Z just burns some oil as part of normal operation, so I'm going to stick with the Nissan Ester, but I think people with good synthetic will likely be fine.

And: for those excited because their motor hasn't seized up in with ~15K miles - that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of any oil, no matter what it is. You could not change the oil at all and get 15K miles trouble free. Not saying your oil change is wrong, just that that data point is pretty much useless.

semtex · 11-10-2009, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imag

Yeah... you're totally wrong. Anyone doing an oil analysis at the first change, bike or car, will show you that there are metal shavings in the oil from break-in.

From a purely logical standpoint, the fact that there are metal shavings in the oil from the first oil change does not in itself disprove what he's saying. The oil that is drained during the first oil change is the original factory-fill oil, right? So those metal shavings could just as easily be from the first engine fire-up and test stand shakedown. I'm not saying I agree with what Kannibul is saying, mind you. I'm just pointing out that the logic isn't quite airtight here. It's not like the dealership changes the oil upon taking delivery of the vehicle, thereby draining out all the factory-fill (at least not that I'm aware of).

imag · 11-10-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

From a purely logical standpoint, the fact that there are metal shavings in the oil from the first oil change does not in itself disprove what he's saying. The oil that is drained during the first oil change is the original factory-fill oil, right? So those metal shavings could just as easily be from the first engine fire-up and test stand shakedown. I'm not saying I agree with what Kannibul is saying, mind you. I'm just pointing out that the logic isn't quite airtight here. It's not like the dealership changes the oil upon taking delivery of the vehicle, thereby draining out all the factory-fill (at least not that I'm aware of).

Fair enough on the logic; I realized after I posted. However, cars usually burn oil for the first 1500-2500 miles. I have also seen cases where people did a drain after 100 miles another at 1500 and still got the majority of the shavings at the latter change. The point remains: no one (but Kannibul), has ever even tried to argue that 90% of break-in occurs on the test stand, except for RC plane engines. If anyone has any other evidence, I'd love to see it.

kannibul · 11-10-2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imag

Yeah... you're totally wrong. Anyone doing an oil analysis at the first change, bike or car, will show you that there are metal shavings in the oil from break-in. I actually subscribe to the fast break-in method, but to say it's all broken in on the test stand is just misinformation. It's no wonder that the bike shop laughed at you.

Also, during break-in, your car burns oil, so synthetic is not desirable (it doesn't burn well). I actually think this Z just burns some oil as part of normal operation, so I'm going to stick with the Nissan Ester, but I think people with good synthetic will likely be fine.

And: for those excited because their motor hasn't seized up in with ~15K miles - that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of any oil, no matter what it is. You could not change the oil at all and get 15K miles trouble free. Not saying your oil change is wrong, just that that data point is pretty much useless.

Metal shavings...no ****. Physics...man, physics...

Your cylinders are honed into a file-like crosshatch pattern when new, and when the engine is first fired up (with oil in it), they "file" down everything and get the rings seated.

And where do those shavings go? Into the pan, with the oil, that ships with your car that you drain out at your first change, and some shavings stay in the engine because you can't get them all out...so they're there until you're ran enough oil through the engine and filter...

Also numerous cars come with synthetic oil from the factory...nothing wrong with using synthetic from the moment you get a new car home, drop the oil out of the pan, and refill it...

Also, in chosing the correct oil - if it meets Nissan's spec in the manual (I don't remember what it is, but it's common) - Nissan can not deny a warranty claim over it. You don't have to use Nissan's oil. There is no "but I think it'll be fine" - fact is, it will be fine.

Nissan can recommend you use Nissan air filters and oil filters too, but that doesn't mean anything - they're just trying to get you to buy something they have a mark-up for, instead of what could potentially be better for your car.

Case and point - Nissan Ester oil - is it synthetic or not? Is it Group III, Group IV, or Group V...?

And the bike shop didn't "laugh" at me...they wanted me to buy their oil, and take OUT the synthetic. Sound familiar?

Modshack · 11-10-2009, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Sorry, I assumed it was a standard industry-wide practice, but I guess I was referring to motorcycle engines as the basis of the second half of my comment.

Your 1300 Honda was run up through the gears on a Dyno, Period. This took 2 minutes at most. Hardly a serious break in.. It is common knowledge that some engines take longer than others to hit their sweet spot. The Honda VFR really doesn't come into it's own until it hits 5K miles (I've had 4 of them). Seems the VQ engine has similar characteristics.....Even the Magazine testers have commented on this..

kannibul · 11-10-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

Your 1300 Honda was run up through the gears on a Dyno, Period. This took 2 minutes at most. Hardly a serious break in.. It is common knowledge that some engines take longer than others to hit their sweet spot. The Honda VFR really doesn't come into it's own until it hits 5K miles (I've had 4 of them). Seems the VQ engine has similar characteristics.....Even the Magazine testers have commented on this..

That's why I said 90% of it happens there on the dyno, and why I said the percentage might be off a bit, but not a lot. Maybe it's 80%...either way.

Modshack · 11-10-2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

That's why I said 90% of it happens there on the dyno, and why I said the percentage might be off a bit, but not a lot. Maybe it's 80%...either way.

Huh?

semtex · 11-10-2009, 02:45 PM

How about we just say some of it happens on the dyno and leave it at that?

simota1 · 11-10-2009, 03:01 PM

^^^ i agree with sem

zman1910 · 11-10-2009, 04:17 PM

A lot of you guys are new to the VQ engines so I'll just say this and let you arrive at your own conclusions.

The reason Nissan people are pushing use of conventional ester oils is bc a lot of their research from the 350Z has led them to believe that early use of synthetic oils are directly responsible for all the oil burning issues they have seen with the VQ. And trust me there are a lot. Anyone that has owned a 350 knows this. Personally, I have owned 2 350's and a G35 coupe. Never once did I use synthetic oils on my N/A Z's. Once turbo'd I immediately made the switch but I also had about 15k on the odo at the time...so I'm sure the piston rings were seated by then. Most good mechanics recommend switching to synthetics around 20k miles for this exact reason.

The VQ is a strange engine so take what you want from this post. There are plenty of threads on "my350Z" to prove this.... specifically of people using royal purple.

The dealer may not be completey bs'ing you on this one. Remember they are in it for the money also so they'd most probably prefer you to get synthetic. Just food for thought.

It sounds as if the guy was trying to honest by saying Nissan engineered the engine that way. It sounds ridiculous but that's probably what Nissan told him to say, so you can't fault him. I have a habit of running conventional oils in my vehicles unless I have some source of FI. People have been using dino oils for a long time now and they are better than ever so I see no reason to change....yet.

kannibul · 11-10-2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zman1910

A lot of you guys are new to the VQ engines so I'll just say this and let you arrive at your own conclusions.

The reason Nissan people are pushing use of conventional ester oils is bc a lot of their research from the 350Z has led them to believe that early use of synthetic oils are directly responsible for all the oil burning issues they have seen with the VQ. And trust me there are a lot. Anyone that has owned a 350 knows this. Personally, I have owned 2 350's and a G35 coupe. Never once did I use synthetic oils on my N/A Z's. Once turbo'd I immediately made the switch but I also had about 15k on the odo at the time...so I'm sure the piston rings were seated by then. Most good mechanics recommend switching to synthetics around 20k miles for this exact reason.

The VQ is a strange engine so take what you want from this post. There are plenty of threads on "my350Z" to prove this.... specifically of people using royal purple.

The dealer may not be completey bs'ing you on this one. Remember they are in it for the money also so they'd most probably prefer you to get synthetic. Just food for thought.

It sounds as if the guy was trying to honest by saying Nissan engineered the engine that way. It sounds ridiculous but that's probably what Nissan told him to say, so you can't fault him. I have a habit of running conventional oils in my vehicles unless I have some source of FI. People have been using dino oils for a long time now and they are better than ever so I see no reason to change....yet.

Well if mine ends up burning oil from it, then so be it - to be honest, I'm skeptical that it will due to the use of synthetic oil, or that it (the use of synthetic) could be proven as the culprit of burning oil.

Many vehicles come with synthetic from the factory. Nissan won't say either way if their factory fill is which or if it's even a blend, so with all honesty, how are we supposed to know if using synthetic is "bad" for the engine? Plus, there's a lot of debating information all over the place (internet) regarding when to switch to synthetic, etc.

I'll use what I use (Mobil1) until something comes up that convinces me otherwise.

davidyan · 11-10-2009, 10:04 PM

^^

Nissan's factory fill is the Nissan Ester 5w30 which is a conventional oil base with Ester.

Ester's are typically found in some of the more expensive Group V synthetics but when combined with the conventional oil base, some people call them "blends" which isn't a bad interpretation. It is however, different from the synthetic blends found on the market which don't have Esters.

To touch on the original post, the 370Z can definitely run a synthetic but there is always debate as to when to make the switch. Most people recommend somewhere between 3 - 10K. I'll probably make the switch myself at 7,500 miles. I may be able to do it earlier with no harm to break-in but its not really worth the risk in my opinion. Running the car for the first couple thousand miles on the Nissan Ester "blend" won't hurt it.

Also, many cite that a lot of cars (for ex. the GTR, Corvette, MB cars) come with a synthetic factory fill and therefore come to the conclusion that synthetics are preferred for brand new engines. Keep in mind, that the oil manufacturers negotiated these factory fill contracts with the auto companies. While synthetic in a new engine probably isn't as bad as some claim, this doesn't mean its the best or ideal oil for the first 3-10K. Remember that most drivers don't want to go through all the research and trouble that we do here on oils and break-in so if the manufacturer recommends a synthetic for the long-term use of the car and wants to keep the instructions simple, I can't argue with them for putting it in there from day one.

semtex · 11-11-2009, 06:47 AM

Very well stated, David. I ran on Nissan's Ester oil for the first 5500 miles before switching to synthetic, precisely because I want to err on the side of caution when it comes to break-in.

simota1 · 11-11-2009, 07:42 AM

crap... break in is at 5500? i thought it was 3200........ o man.......

11-10-2009, 02:45 PM	#39 (permalink)
semtex A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Behind enemy lines Age: 53 Posts: 5,995 Drives: People to drink Rep Power: 32	How about we just say some of it happens on the dyno and leave it at that? __________________ "There are no small accidents on this circuit." -- Ayrton Senna 316.8whp & 248 ft/lbs (Dyno Dynamics) \| 319whp & 256 ft/lbs (DynoJet) (04/23/10) Stillen G3 CAI, CBE, Pulley / F.I. LTH / GTSpec Ladder Brace / Setrab Oil Cooler / UpRev-tuned by Forged Perf.

11-10-2009, 03:01 PM	#40 (permalink)
simota1 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2009 Location: Dededo, Guam Posts: 6,642 Drives: solid red 370z 6mt Rep Power: 404	^^^ i agree with sem __________________ *TOP SECRET/POWERHOUSE AMUSE/ARC/DAYTONA RACING/VARIS/MINES/GANADOR/J-LINE/WORK EMOTION CR KAI/GT SPEC/CARBON SIGNAL/ZOOM ENGINEERING/ CARBON FIBER ELEMENT/STILLEN/*

11-10-2009, 04:17 PM	#41 (permalink)
zman1910 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: FL Posts: 361 Drives: 2011 Audi S4 Rep Power: 428	A lot of you guys are new to the VQ engines so I'll just say this and let you arrive at your own conclusions. The reason Nissan people are pushing use of conventional ester oils is bc a lot of their research from the 350Z has led them to believe that early use of synthetic oils are directly responsible for all the oil burning issues they have seen with the VQ. And trust me there are a lot. Anyone that has owned a 350 knows this. Personally, I have owned 2 350's and a G35 coupe. Never once did I use synthetic oils on my N/A Z's. Once turbo'd I immediately made the switch but I also had about 15k on the odo at the time...so I'm sure the piston rings were seated by then. Most good mechanics recommend switching to synthetics around 20k miles for this exact reason. The VQ is a strange engine so take what you want from this post. There are plenty of threads on "my350Z" to prove this.... specifically of people using royal purple. The dealer may not be completey bs'ing you on this one. Remember they are in it for the money also so they'd most probably prefer you to get synthetic. Just food for thought. It sounds as if the guy was trying to honest by saying Nissan engineered the engine that way. It sounds ridiculous but that's probably what Nissan told him to say, so you can't fault him. I have a habit of running conventional oils in my vehicles unless I have some source of FI. People have been using dino oils for a long time now and they are better than ever so I see no reason to change....yet. Last edited by zman1910; 11-10-2009 at 04:23 PM.

11-11-2009, 06:47 AM	#44 (permalink)
semtex A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Behind enemy lines Age: 53 Posts: 5,995 Drives: People to drink Rep Power: 32	Very well stated, David. I ran on Nissan's Ester oil for the first 5500 miles before switching to synthetic, precisely because I want to err on the side of caution when it comes to break-in. __________________ "There are no small accidents on this circuit." -- Ayrton Senna 316.8whp & 248 ft/lbs (Dyno Dynamics) \| 319whp & 256 ft/lbs (DynoJet) (04/23/10) Stillen G3 CAI, CBE, Pulley / F.I. LTH / GTSpec Ladder Brace / Setrab Oil Cooler / UpRev-tuned by Forged Perf.

11-11-2009, 07:42 AM	#45 (permalink)
simota1 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2009 Location: Dededo, Guam Posts: 6,642 Drives: solid red 370z 6mt Rep Power: 404	crap... break in is at 5500? i thought it was 3200........ o man....... __________________ *TOP SECRET/POWERHOUSE AMUSE/ARC/DAYTONA RACING/VARIS/MINES/GANADOR/J-LINE/WORK EMOTION CR KAI/GT SPEC/CARBON SIGNAL/ZOOM ENGINEERING/ CARBON FIBER ELEMENT/STILLEN/*

11-10-2009, 10:04 PM	#43 (permalink)
davidyan Base Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: CA Posts: 244 Drives: PG 370Z Sport 6MT Rep Power: 15	^^ Nissan's factory fill is the Nissan Ester 5w30 which is a conventional oil base with Ester. Ester's are typically found in some of the more expensive Group V synthetics but when combined with the conventional oil base, some people call them "blends" which isn't a bad interpretation. It is however, different from the synthetic blends found on the market which don't have Esters. To touch on the original post, the 370Z can definitely run a synthetic but there is always debate as to when to make the switch. Most people recommend somewhere between 3 - 10K. I'll probably make the switch myself at 7,500 miles. I may be able to do it earlier with no harm to break-in but its not really worth the risk in my opinion. Running the car for the first couple thousand miles on the Nissan Ester "blend" won't hurt it. Also, many cite that a lot of cars (for ex. the GTR, Corvette, MB cars) come with a synthetic factory fill and therefore come to the conclusion that synthetics are preferred for brand new engines. Keep in mind, that the oil manufacturers negotiated these factory fill contracts with the auto companies. While synthetic in a new engine probably isn't as bad as some claim, this doesn't mean its the best or ideal oil for the first 3-10K. Remember that most drivers don't want to go through all the research and trouble that we do here on oils and break-in so if the manufacturer recommends a synthetic for the long-term use of the car and wants to keep the instructions simple, I can't argue with them for putting it in there from day one.

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