Acceptable front camber difference

reunited · 12-19-2013, 10:48 PM

Hi-

I'm a noob when it comes to wheel alignment.

I did do a search before posting though -no joy.

What is the acceptable camber difference between left/right front?

I was in an accident and they had to replace almost all (all?) of the front right suspension.

Car drives fine but left front camber is -.3 and right front is -.9
Front toe is .08 and right is .1
Rear left camber is -1.7, right -1.8.
Rear left toe is .12, right is .15
Total rear toe is .27
There are no entries for front caster.

Please be kind/patient. Appreciate your comments. Thanks in advance.
Bill

Red__Zed · 12-19-2013, 10:51 PM

Max camber delta per spec is .55*

reunited · 12-19-2013, 11:01 PM

Thanks-

Is the spec in the FSM or elsewhere?

Mgr when I picked up the car and when I looked quizzically at the sheet said it was the best that they could do.

I'll take it back for another alignment ... anything I should have them check, also how serious is .55 difference and mine (.6)??

TIA-
Bill

Red__Zed · 12-19-2013, 11:06 PM

If you don't notice any issues with driving you are probably fine.

The 370 doesn't come with the ability to adjust front camber, so there's not a ton they can do (easily)

reunited · 12-19-2013, 11:10 PM

Thanks --rep'd

xxAGAVExx · 12-20-2013, 09:16 AM

Sorry OP, not trying to thread jack, but this seems similar In topic. I understand that going with more negative camber than specs will improve performance (but eat up your tires more) but at what point does it start to hinder performance, or is that a more complicated question involving the type of suspension etc. reason I ask, I'm trying to figure out if I need to get camber arms after swifts. I don't care if I'm out of spec as long as it's not adversely affecting performance. This is my current set up with swifts and adjusted as much as possible without getting new camber arms.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Red__Zed · 12-20-2013, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxAGAVExx

Sorry OP, not trying to thread jack, but this seems similar In topic. I understand that going with more negative camber than specs will improve performance (but eat up your tires more) but at what point does it start to hinder performance, or is that a more complicated question involving the type of suspension etc. reason I ask, I'm trying to figure out if I need to get camber arms after swifts. I don't care if I'm out of spec as long as it's not adversely affecting performance. This is my current set up with swifts and adjusted as much as possible without getting new camber arms.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's pretty typical for lowering on swifts, it's fine.

Camber really only wears tires if you spend most of your time in a straight line. If most of your driving is dynamic, you'll often see worse wear with a stock setup as the tires are rolling over and have very little contact patch mid corner (esp up front).

A camber kit wouldn't hurt but it's certainly not essential.

wstar · 12-20-2013, 10:06 AM

Well, the tradeoff is if you add a ton of negative camber to get perfect traction when the car is laid over in a hard corner, your straight-line grip in the front goes down. I suppose rolling evenly down the road or accelerating in a straight line this doesn't matter too much (aside from tire wear issues), but where it will matter is straight-line braking performance. In that scenario you're headed straight, but you're mostly using front tire grip to slow the car down, and you just won't have as much of it with the outer edges lifted out. Suspension compression under braking load may push the camber out flatter (I'm not sure), but it certainly won't totally correct the problem.

One of the ways you can ease (but not eliminate) the tradeoff is by trading some static negative camber for increased caster (caster being the way the forks lean backwards on an old-school chopper type motorcycle). Caster doesn't do anything to camber in a straight line, but makes the car tend to add more dynamic camber while in a corner. So maybe (random made-up numbers here) if you ideally wanted -4.0 camber in the corner, but that's too much for your straight line braking, maybe you can go -2.5 or -3 on the static camber and add a degree or two of caster so that it still pushes out to the same level as a static setting of 4 in the corner.

There's a tradeoff with caster, too, though. As you get the caster more aggressive, the car resists turning in more - the steering feels (and is) heavier and less responsive.

kenchan · 12-20-2013, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reunited

I was in an accident and they had to replace almost all (all?) of the front right suspension.

Car drives fine but left front camber is -.3 and right front is -.9
Front toe is .08 and right is .1
Rear left camber is -1.7, right -1.8.
Rear left toe is .12, right is .15
Total rear toe is .27
There are no entries for front caster.

Please be kind/patient. Appreciate your comments. Thanks in advance.
Bill

wat's your thrust angle? that can't be driving straight unless your frame was twisted/bent/folded in half?

Red__Zed · 12-20-2013, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Well, the tradeoff is if you add a ton of negative camber to get perfect traction when the car is laid over in a hard corner, your straight-line grip in the front goes down. I suppose rolling evenly down the road or accelerating in a straight line this doesn't matter too much (aside from tire wear issues), but where it will matter is straight-line braking performance. In that scenario you're headed straight, but you're mostly using front tire grip to slow the car down, and you just won't have as much of it with the outer edges lifted out. Suspension compression under braking load may push the camber out flatter (I'm not sure), but it certainly won't totally correct the problem.

One of the ways you can ease (but not eliminate) the tradeoff is by trading some static negative camber for increased caster (caster being the way the forks lean backwards on an old-school chopper type motorcycle). Caster doesn't do anything to camber in a straight line, but makes the car tend to add more dynamic camber while in a corner. So maybe (random made-up numbers here) if you ideally wanted -4.0 camber in the corner, but that's too much for your straight line braking, maybe you can go -2.5 or -3 on the static camber and add a degree or two of caster so that it still pushes out to the same level as a static setting of 4 in the corner.

There's a tradeoff with caster, too, though. As you get the caster more aggressive, the car resists turning in more - the steering feels (and is) heavier and less responsive.

All true, but 1.7* of camber is no where near the point where you start to get worried about that behavior. Nor is caster adjustable in this scenario.

reunited · 12-20-2013, 10:46 AM

Thanks Ken for responding-

Just got off the phone with the body shop ... car is going in on Thursday.

I expressed concern about the front delta camber as well as the incomplete measurements. The attached form, in an atypical format from what I normally see here, is what I received from the body shop.

Car tracks straight, no problem. Car does not pull on braking.

Comments are appreciated.

Red__Zed · 12-20-2013, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reunited

Thanks Ken for responding-

Just got off the phone with the body shop ... car is going in on Thursday.

I expressed concern about the front delta camber as well as the incomplete measurements. The attached form, in an atypical format from what I normally see here, is what I received from the body shop.

Car tracks straight, no problem. Car does not pull on braking.

Comments are appreciated.

They have a dated system for doing alignments. I am slightly concerned about the math being done on front camber delta

A thrust angle of .02 is likely not noticable for the type of driving it sounds like you do. It's not ideal, but also not notably problematic. You can make a stink and demand a "fix" or be happy with the car as is, neither option is "wrong." Some of that decision may be made based on how well dealing with insurance has been going and whether you want your car back now.

I would ask them in which world ".9 - .3 = .5 though"

kenchan · 12-20-2013, 11:01 AM

i usually like to keep my camber within 0.2 and toe even. unless the tech notices my car is dog tracking, then he can adjust the toe a little bit to get the thrust angle at or near 0.

also, who knows when that alignment rack was last caliberated... if it drives fine for you, and dont see weird tire wear, that's wat it all matters at the end.

wstar · 12-20-2013, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

All true, but 1.7* of camber is no where near the point where you start to get worried about that behavior. Nor is caster adjustable in this scenario.

Oh I agree, I was just running off in left field on the tangentially raised question:

Quote:

more negative camber than specs will improve performance (but eat up your tires more) but at what point does it start to hinder performance

Red__Zed · 12-20-2013, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Oh I agree, I was just running off in left field on the tangentially raised question:

I'm just clarifying for those that may not realize that. I know you know

12-19-2013, 10:48 PM	#1 (permalink)
reunited Base Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: meta state Posts: 72 Drives: 12 370 AT, sport Rep Power: 14	Acceptable front camber difference Hi- I'm a noob when it comes to wheel alignment. I did do a search before posting though -no joy. What is the acceptable camber difference between left/right front? I was in an accident and they had to replace almost all (all?) of the front right suspension. Car drives fine but left front camber is -.3 and right front is -.9 Front toe is .08 and right is .1 Rear left camber is -1.7, right -1.8. Rear left toe is .12, right is .15 Total rear toe is .27 There are no entries for front caster. Please be kind/patient. Appreciate your comments. Thanks in advance. Bill __________________ 2012 PW Touring Sport, Navigation. Michelin PSS. LLumar 50 VLT tint all around. Zoom mirrors. Dynaudio/ARC, stealth MDF spare tire sub.

12-19-2013, 11:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
reunited Base Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: meta state Posts: 72 Drives: 12 370 AT, sport Rep Power: 14	Thanks- Is the spec in the FSM or elsewhere? Mgr when I picked up the car and when I looked quizzically at the sheet said it was the best that they could do. I'll take it back for another alignment ... anything I should have them check, also how serious is .55 difference and mine (.6)?? TIA- Bill __________________ 2012 PW Touring Sport, Navigation. Michelin PSS. LLumar 50 VLT tint all around. Zoom mirrors. Dynaudio/ARC, stealth MDF spare tire sub.

12-19-2013, 11:10 PM	#5 (permalink)
reunited Base Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: meta state Posts: 72 Drives: 12 370 AT, sport Rep Power: 14	Thanks --rep'd __________________ 2012 PW Touring Sport, Navigation. Michelin PSS. LLumar 50 VLT tint all around. Zoom mirrors. Dynaudio/ARC, stealth MDF spare tire sub.

12-20-2013, 09:16 AM	#6 (permalink)
xxAGAVExx A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Tampa Posts: 1,037 Drives: 09 370Z BLK M6 Rep Power: 53925	Acceptable front camber difference Sorry OP, not trying to thread jack, but this seems similar In topic. I understand that going with more negative camber than specs will improve performance (but eat up your tires more) but at what point does it start to hinder performance, or is that a more complicated question involving the type of suspension etc. reason I ask, I'm trying to figure out if I need to get camber arms after swifts. I don't care if I'm out of spec as long as it's not adversely affecting performance. This is my current set up with swifts and adjusted as much as possible without getting new camber arms. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk __________________ l 09/6MT l BP Twin Turbo Kit l E-85 w/Fuel Return l FI 18" Res CF CBE l Powertrix Ultra-Lite Coilovers l Wavetrac LSD \| Lots of SPL and Carbon Fiber \|

12-20-2013, 10:06 AM	#8 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	Well, the tradeoff is if you add a ton of negative camber to get perfect traction when the car is laid over in a hard corner, your straight-line grip in the front goes down. I suppose rolling evenly down the road or accelerating in a straight line this doesn't matter too much (aside from tire wear issues), but where it will matter is straight-line braking performance. In that scenario you're headed straight, but you're mostly using front tire grip to slow the car down, and you just won't have as much of it with the outer edges lifted out. Suspension compression under braking load may push the camber out flatter (I'm not sure), but it certainly won't totally correct the problem. One of the ways you can ease (but not eliminate) the tradeoff is by trading some static negative camber for increased caster (caster being the way the forks lean backwards on an old-school chopper type motorcycle). Caster doesn't do anything to camber in a straight line, but makes the car tend to add more dynamic camber while in a corner. So maybe (random made-up numbers here) if you ideally wanted -4.0 camber in the corner, but that's too much for your straight line braking, maybe you can go -2.5 or -3 on the static camber and add a degree or two of caster so that it still pushes out to the same level as a static setting of 4 in the corner. There's a tradeoff with caster, too, though. As you get the caster more aggressive, the car resists turning in more - the steering feels (and is) heavier and less responsive. xxAGAVExx likes this. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

12-19-2013, 10:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
Red__Zed A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: window seat Posts: 28,940 Drives: Mostly on two wheels Rep Power: 121	Max camber delta per spec is .55*

12-19-2013, 11:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
Red__Zed A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: window seat Posts: 28,940 Drives: Mostly on two wheels Rep Power: 121	If you don't notice any issues with driving you are probably fine. The 370 doesn't come with the ability to adjust front camber, so there's not a ton they can do (easily)

12-20-2013, 11:01 AM	#13 (permalink)
kenchan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: N/A Posts: 76,801 Drives: N/A Rep Power: 141521	i usually like to keep my camber within 0.2 and toe even. unless the tech notices my car is dog tracking, then he can adjust the toe a little bit to get the thrust angle at or near 0. also, who knows when that alignment rack was last caliberated... if it drives fine for you, and dont see weird tire wear, that's wat it all matters at the end.

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