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Nissan 370Z Forum (http://www.the370z.com/)
-   Brakes & Suspension (http://www.the370z.com/brakes-suspension/)
-   -   Rear essentric lockout bolt kit? (http://www.the370z.com/brakes-suspension/75773-rear-essentric-lockout-bolt-kit.html)

synolimit 08-24-2013 06:42 PM
Rear essentric lockout bolt kit?
 
So I'm making my own kit. The 10.9 bolts can be bought at autozone or advanced auto for like $2 each and the t6061 plates can be made super cheap with a simple hole drilled in the middle that needs to sit in between the grooves on the sub frame (1.33-1.34"). My question is if I install now what will my camber do? Using a level pressed up against my tires (to long to go rim to rim of the wheel which would be a more accurate number) and my iPhone sitting flush against the level, my camber is -1.9 drivers and -1.4 passenger. Any idea if ill go more camber one way or the other?

FYI front is drivers side -0.5 and passenger is -0.8 so it seems like it works as everything seems factory spec since I'm all stock.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ps8646821f.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ps6bec54c8.jpg

SPOHN 08-25-2013 06:48 PM
It's possible. Anytime you loosen them up they seem to change, even when tightening down. So far as for camber I feel you would be ok. Toe would be ?able. I love that app though. Works perfect for me also.

Side note dude. Your tattoo is about 100% same as mine. I have flames with skulls in it. Rep.

phunk 08-26-2013 03:21 AM
Just so you know.. Once you make your camber adjustment kit, adjusting the LCA for camber has very dramatic effects on your toe as well. Not sure if you were planning on setting your camber with the phone level... I actually would trust that to be accurate as far as camber, but it won't show you how bad the toe just got screwed when you moved the camber.

SPOHN 08-26-2013 04:22 AM
Good point Phunk. I forgot camber adjustment effects toe also.

phunk 08-26-2013 10:28 AM
I couldnt help but remember since I just aligned my car Thursday, and I have the suspension drawn in CAD right now while I am trying to figure out some control arm angle adjustments so my car can put the power down without having to go back to stock ride height.

synolimit 08-26-2013 10:53 AM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPOHN (Post 2460969)
It's possible. Anytime you loosen them up they seem to change, even when tightening down. So far as for camber I feel you would be ok. Toe would be ?able. I love that app though. Works perfect for me also.

Side note dude. Your tattoo is about 100% same as mine. I have flames with skulls in it. Rep.
See that's why I want the lockout kit. Once I get camber arms and toe arms, I want all the adjustment there and not at my bolt locations. A smooth bolt won't move like an eccentic bolt can. "If" I installed these ahead of time I was only planning on the control arm and not the toe arm. But if toe does move even with just messing with the camber bolt, then I won't touch anything.

Really it's the same tattoo??

phunk 08-26-2013 11:03 AM
what do you mean by a "lockout"?

synolimit 08-26-2013 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phunk (Post 2461753)
what do you mean by a "lockout"?
I don't know, just the name of the kit I see. Just bolts and aluminium end plates instead of the eccentic bolts.

synolimit 08-26-2013 11:43 AM
FYI, on a jeep I normally did toe by measuring the tires front a rear. The rear of course had zero toe and front was set 1/8" inward. I could measure front and rear of the rear tire with a tape measure by using the same method. Stick the tape measure in a tire grove and measure the same groove on the other side. If front and rear are both say 60 1/8" then after adjusting things, the measuent must still be 60 1/8".

synolimit 08-26-2013 12:01 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Well I'm stoaked!! Local scrap yard had t6061 piece for $0.75. So plus about $8 for the bolts the lockout kit will cost me $8.75!!! Vs say SPL which is $72!

phunk 08-26-2013 02:15 PM
I am very curious to see exactly what you are planning on doing.

Spec Jay 08-26-2013 03:09 PM
grind a flat on a bolt. cut the aluminum into washers drill a offset hole to match bolt. is what i think hes doing. i wouldve used steel though.

phunk 08-26-2013 03:25 PM
that just sounds like a regular eccentric bolt kit?

modme 08-26-2013 03:58 PM
It would no longer be adjustable and no slip. Assuming suspension geometry doesnt change, camber and toe will always stay the same.

Cbtech 08-26-2013 05:15 PM
***retard moment here :icon14:***

what is this supposed to do??

SPOHN 08-26-2013 06:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by synolimit (Post 2461729)
See that's why I want the lockout kit. Once I get camber arms and toe arms, I want all the adjustment there and not at my bolt locations. A smooth bolt won't move like an eccentic bolt can. "If" I installed these ahead of time I was only planning on the control arm and not the toe arm. But if toe does move even with just messing with the camber bolt, then I won't touch anything.

Really it's the same tattoo??
OFF Topic.

It's close enough
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3748611a.jpg
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8aabf328.jpg
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/...ps80407fd8.jpg

synolimit 08-26-2013 07:01 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by phunk (Post 2462066)
I am very curious to see exactly what you are planning on doing.
Lol I'm just making this...

And paying $8 instead of $72. The whole topic start though was asking if I install now what will my suspension do. But you answered that so ill either wait or just ghetto measure toe and camber like I said and hope the bolts with no adjustment don't give me insane outta wack numbers.

synolimit 08-26-2013 07:08 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPOHN (Post 2462413)
OFF Topic.
O nice. This arms a full sleeve just not filled in yet :(

synolimit 08-26-2013 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phunk (Post 2462192)
that just sounds like a regular eccentric bolt kit?
Yep, just not paying $72



Quote:
Originally Posted by modme (Post 2462222)
It would no longer be adjustable and no slip. Assuming suspension geometry doesnt change, camber and toe will always stay the same.
Correct. Once I get the arms, the adjustable bolts are going bye bye so they can't slip under a hard G load.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cbtech (Post 2462334)
***retard moment here :icon14:***

what is this supposed to do??
Read right above

synolimit 08-26-2013 09:14 PM
Well I just measured toe. Not ideal, 1. Because I used a tape measure and 2. The only way to measure was not in the middle of the wheel. I got only about 1/4 way up the tire. However I did get a rear measurement of about 68 1.5/16th and a front measurement of 68. Therefore the rear tires are toed in 1.5/16th of an inch. That's factory yes?

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...pse6563619.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...psacf6c44b.jpg

synolimit 08-27-2013 02:27 PM
Well I'm inpatient so I decided to see what would change by installing the toe bolts. To my surprise the numbers didn't do what I was thinking they'd do.

Before install...
Driver camber -1.9
Passenger cam -1.4
Rear toe 0.094"

After install
Driver camber -1.8
Passenger cam -1.3
Rear toe 0.094"

Basically nothing happened which is awesome! Because 1. I don't need to take them off and 2. Everything's in spec.

Now I was scared because first I just installed the passenger side and measured and the toe was at 0.25" which is out of spec. I thought "o great, after the drivers side ill be 0.5" or something. But doing the drives pulled it right back where it was. Now I did look at the factory marks and it looked like the eccentric bolts were straight up and down so they weren't giving any adjustment anyhow. Later ill tackle the camber bolts.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ps36782b2e.jpg

Spec Jay 08-27-2013 03:27 PM
you need to slot the subframe and drill the washers with offset holes.

Sh0velMan 08-27-2013 03:52 PM
So uhh what sizes and offsets did you end up going with to make RPF1's fit?

synolimit 08-27-2013 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spec Jay (Post 2463632)
you need to slot the subframe and drill the washers with offset holes.
Huh? Why?

Whole point of this was to have zero chance of movement from those locations.

synolimit 08-27-2013 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh0velMan (Post 2463662)
So uhh what sizes and offsets did you end up going with to make RPF1's fit?
10.5 +15 rear and 9.5 +45 front with a 20mm spacer.

Sh0velMan 08-28-2013 07:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by synolimit (Post 2463721)
10.5 +15 rear and 9.5 +45 front with a 20mm spacer.
How tight is the clearance between the caliper and wheel in the front with that spacer?

Think you could have pulled it off with +38 and a 15mm? That's 2mm less clearance.

Sh0velMan 08-28-2013 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by synolimit (Post 2463718)
Huh? Why?

Whole point of this was to have zero chance of movement from those locations.
I *think* he was trying to tell you how you could adjust the setup using the lockout plates, without using eccentric bolts... He missed the part about your alignment being fine and you planning on getting adjustable arms anyway, I guess.

synolimit 08-28-2013 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh0velMan (Post 2464413)
How tight is the clearance between the caliper and wheel in the front with that spacer?

Think you could have pulled it off with +38 and a 15mm? That's 2mm less clearance.
Yes I could have. Odd thing is with the 20mm I have like zero clearance. But I put the 15mm on, held the rim flat on it and spun and nothing hit.

synolimit 08-28-2013 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh0velMan (Post 2464416)
I *think* he was trying to tell you how you could adjust the setup using the lockout plates, without using eccentric bolts... He missed the part about your alignment being fine and you planning on getting adjustable arms anyway, I guess.
How would u adjust toe with a lockout plate and no eccentric bolt?

Sh0velMan 08-28-2013 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by synolimit (Post 2464904)
How would u adjust toe with a lockout plate and no eccentric bolt?
By making the hole not round... slotted, in other words. See what I mean?

phunk 08-28-2013 03:18 PM
I guess I was confused by thinking that your goal was to make eccentric bolts, rather then eliminate them. But it appears that you want to do full alignment adjustment using adjustable length arms without any adjustment available in the bolts.

In my experience, that is not ideal... but I am no suspension expert. From my experience, you want both arms to be exactly the same length, so that your compression alignment is symmetrical. This would mean finding an ideal control arm length that puts you within the range of adjustment for your eccentric bolts.

synolimit 08-28-2013 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh0velMan (Post 2465128)
By making the hole not round... slotted, in other words. See what I mean?
Gotcha, cause the sub frame is slotted to match. Yeah ill just let the arms do all the work when I get them. Fingers crossed I don't need to buy them at all haha. Wishful thinking, after swift instal ill be like -2 front, -1, -1.5 rear, zero toe all around.

synolimit 08-28-2013 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phunk (Post 2465252)
I guess I was confused by thinking that your goal was to make eccentric bolts, rather then eliminate them. But it appears that you want to do full alignment adjustment using adjustable length arms without any adjustment available in the bolts.

In my experience, that is not ideal... but I am no suspension expert. From my experience, you want both arms to be exactly the same length, so that your compression alignment is symmetrical. This would mean finding an ideal control arm length that puts you within the range of adjustment for your eccentric bolts.
I guess I'm confused. Stock, the only adjustment is in the bolt, arms should be identical length. Now the only adjustment will be in the arm. I "guess" something could happen if I try to achieve say -1.5 rear camber on both sides and one arm ends up being longer than the other to achieve that camber, but I don't think ill see the inssue. I mean right now my drivers is a half a degree further in than the passenger with no issue (of course the arms are same length). For me I doubt ill experience anything if one arms maybe a few millimeters longer or shorter than the other. More importantly the settings will be identical.

phunk 08-28-2013 09:46 PM
Your settings when your sitting level are only a small part of the picture. When your suspension compresses your alignment changes. When the car is lowered and the control arm angles are altered, it's gets very dramatic. Different arm length changes the sweep and therefore effects how much it changes from compression. The changes apply to both camber and toe. If one side toes more then the other on compression, you will notice. I made the mistake of trusting an alignment shop to do it their way and they setup my 350z with just the arm lengths. Sure, it looks great on paper.. Until the rear end squat, and my car would veer hard left every time I floored it.

synolimit 08-28-2013 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phunk (Post 2465733)
Your settings when your sitting level are only a small part of the picture. When your suspension compresses your alignment changes. When the car is lowered and the control arm angles are altered, it's gets very dramatic. Different arm length changes the sweep and therefore effects how much it changes from compression. The changes apply to both camber and toe. If one side toes more then the other on compression, you will notice. I made the mistake of trusting an alignment shop to do it their way and they setup my 350z with just the arm lengths. Sure, it looks great on paper.. Until the rear end squat, and my car would veer hard left every time I floored it.
Hmm. Well here's to hoping the bodies straight and true along with the arms being identical.

synolimit 08-28-2013 11:51 PM
Just to ask one question, if having arms at different lengths is bad and could happen during an alignment, why does SPL sell the lockout kit then?

phunk 08-29-2013 12:19 PM
I will sell ya one too if you want :)

bad is relative. In my 350z, I didnt really notice the unequal arm length except when I put the stock springs in the back with 15" wheels and drag slicks. The traction combined with soft spring rate gave the suspension a ton of travel, so I could really feel the effects on compression toe making the car veer left under throttle then right when I let off (probably due to my right counter-steering). It was bad enough that it took me a few practice runs counter-steering to keep the car in my lane.

That said, my 350z may have been an extreme example of what can happen. That car, having never been in any accident or anything, was not a very true chassis. The passenger side wheel/tire sticks out from the fender more as if the wheel was a more aggressive offset by a VERY noticeable amount.

So I would have to say that I might be getting too sensitive about the issue.. I only know that in mechanical theory, it makes a difference. But in practice, with my limited suspension setup experience, it may take a very extreme case before the effects are noticeable to the driver.

Sh0velMan 08-29-2013 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phunk (Post 2466511)
I will sell ya one too if you want :)

bad is relative. In my 350z, I didnt really notice the unequal arm length except when I put the stock springs in the back with 15" wheels and drag slicks. The traction combined with soft spring rate gave the suspension a ton of travel, so I could really feel the effects on compression toe making the car veer left under throttle then right when I let off (or at least it felt like it was veering right cause i had to steer to the right while on the throttle). It was bad enough that it took me a few practice runs over counter-steering to keep the car in my lane.

That said, my 350z may have been an extreme example of what can happen. That car, having never been in any accident or anything, was not a very true chassis. The passenger side wheel/tire sticks out from the fender more as if the wheel was a more aggressive offset by a VERY noticeable amount.

So I would have to say that I might be getting to sensitive about the issue.. I only know that in mechanical theory, it is incorrect to do. But in practice, with my limited suspension setup experience, it may take a very extreme case before the effects are noticeable to the driver.
I think you hit the nail on the head with the large amount of travel comment.

With a track prepped car, the suspension travel is reduced significantly from stock, to say nothing of a drag setup.

I would imagine that pro race shops (Like Doran) probably manufacture their lockout hardware taking these issues into account so that they have proper positioning as a "base" rather than using an eccentric to adjust it, if you understand what I'm saying. Then, they just use the adjustable arms to zero in the settings over the life of the car.

phunk 08-29-2013 12:33 PM
If guys like them are doing it, I should probably step away before they come in here and school me :) I am over-stepping my personal experience by trying to get into a suspension theory argument... but I am studying it a lot lately since I have some special needs of my own that I am trying to resolve!

Sh0velMan 08-29-2013 12:55 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by phunk (Post 2466532)
If guys like them are doing it, I should probably step away before they come in here and school me :) I am over-stepping my personal experience by trying to get into a suspension theory argument... but I am studying it a lot lately since I have some special needs of my own that I am trying to resolve!
Hehe, you and me both! They definitely lock them out. Here's a photo I took @ COTA of the Doran car's backside



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