Help with rear toe!!
 

Ok, I've been having one hell of a time getting my suspension done. It really shouldn't be this complicated, yet time after time I keep having issues!

The latest- I installed my rear camber arms (they were shipped separate of the traction bar arms)- torqued everything to spec, everything seemed tight, I put the wheels back on and torqued them to spec also.

I go for a test drive, and within a minute, I can feel this crazy instability coming from the back. I thought a wheel was loose. I can feel the car want to sway waaaay too much, over the tiniest bumps. Something was wrong. A friend of mine was with me and he ran back to the house to grab my torque wrench. checked the wheels- they were all good. So I limped the car home. Friend followed behind and said he could see one of the back tires wanting to sway side to side. But not both.

I took the wheels off again, checked all the bolts, everything is solid. WTF. I put the wheels back on, thinking maybe a wheel went on crooked, but nope, when I did the test drive again, still same weird/dangerous feeling. And then I realized it. My toe was WAY out on the passenger rear tire.

Ok, no biggie. I now have the rear traction arms and camber arms installed- I'll just tweak the traction arms until the toe is a bit more reasonable.

Here's the problem- I can't adjust it at all. Like, when I turn the camber arms, I can visibly see the whole suspension assembly move with every crank I put on the camber arm. On the traction arm? I maxed it out and nothing moves whatsoever, besides the bar sitting tighter in place, due to being spread apart.

How do I just adjust the toe then?! What am I doing wrong? I'm wondering if I bent a suspension arm somehow when the wheel was going side to side? Everything feels solid. I see no indication of bending, anywhere. What do I do?

I wanted to take my car in for an alignment finally today, but can't even drive the car to the shop with how it is. I just want to adjust the toe, whether in or out, so that I can safely make it to the shop.

I never did install the SPC rear toe bolts (yet). I figured since I'm only lowered on swift springs, I wouldn't need them. What's more is, I don't understand how the toe went so far out on one side of the car, but stayed the same on the other. Both camber arms and traction bars were the same length, when installed.

So... if the traction arms aren't for adjusting toe... what are they for? And do I need to use the SPC rear toe bolts to be able to adjust the car? I just want to get back to stock geometry, but lowered a wee bit on the swifts.

Yes, you will need the SPC toe bolts. The only times you do not is when you go to SPL Midlinks or true coilovers (you will need SPL toe arms for this). Even if you set your SPL parts to the exact length you will still need an alignment. It's just about always out of spec.

sorta boggles my mind that people don't just go straight to all SPL in the rear

I have no use for solid bushings in my car. It's daily driven, not a track monster. SPL parts are complete overkill for my application.

I think I've finally come to realize my problem was the bolt which holds the camber arm in place (the side with the bushing). I didn't want to install the SPC toe bolts because I really have no interest in cutting or drilling anything on the car. What I failed to realize is the stock bolt has some toe adjustability, and if I'm correct, I must've put it completely to one end (for toe-in), where the other one was in a much more neutral position.

So the question remains... what are the traction arms actually for then? As I mentioned, it didn't matter how I adjusted it, it changed nothing visible about the position of the suspension. I don't even know if the guy on the alignment rack should be adjusting them. Thoughts?

SPL stuff is perfectly fine for the street

and, well, you wouldn't be asking how to adjust toe

Well, you shouldn't have lowered it then. You will still need the SPC toe bolts to get the alignment back in spec. There are many threads that tell you exactly what you will need to do when installing Swift springs.

Let's get some facts straight first...I think you are lowered on Swifts, and have Kinetix rear camber and traction arms?

Anyway, for the 370z platform, I know that some advertisements state using the traction arms to adjust rear toe. While it does allow a little toe adjustment, it's not supposed to be done that way. It needs to be done via the stock toe bolt, aftermarket toe bolt, or the toe arms.

Also, notice that unlike some other manufacturers, SPL does not advertise their traction arms for the purpose of toe adjustment.

See what Synolimit and Norain said http://www.the370z.com/brakes-suspen...ml#post2779972

More dead horse beating here. If you are trying to adjust your alignment with no measuring or metering devices, i suggest you first...STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING, and take it to a specialized shop the deals with alignment and corner balance.

Dead horse beating 2: Traction arms do not set static toe. It sets toe limit and total change in toe at a given ride height. Trying to set the toe with traction arms will get you nowhere near what you are trying to achieve.

Goodluck...and don't kill yourself.

I'm a little different since I have a G37 sedan, but I'm only lowered on H&R springs, with SPL camber arms and I was told my SPC toe bolts were maxed out to get it as close to zero as possible. I know some people lowered on springs can get away with the factory toe bolts, but it varies from car to car, even with the same springs from whay I've read.

Latez

Ok, hold on... I had to put the arms in and set them so that I could drive to the alignment shop. I couldn't pay a shop to install arms that I can readily do myself. It's like 2-3 bolts per arm- not exactly difficult. There's a number of users on here who must have bottomless bank accounts, judging by how much they dump into their cars. I unfortunately don't have the same opportunities. Seriously, I wish I did. I'm kind of sad I don't :tup: I guess the other part of it is... stuff is way more expensive north of the border than it is south... I'd be paying a shop $150/hr to put those things in.

I went with the Z1 arms.. FUCA, RCA and RTA... I'm sure some of you will say I didn't spend enough on getting the greatest suspension pieces out there (SPL), but again, they are complete overkill for my purposes. I wanted to lower my car an inch, and as such, I'm now expected to pay over 2k [CDN] in suspension pieces just to make it work just for SPL? I dunno, that's a bit crazy. The Z1 kit is cheap and they're basic arms that expand and contract. They look very well engineered and come at a reasonable price. As mentioned, I also do not want solid bushings. I've ridden on them before and seeing as I have my wife in this car, I still want some no-rattles, no-harshness, no-additional NVH, at least for her sake.

Ok, now moving forward- the mistake I made was in thinking that the traction arms were for adjusting toe. That's at least how Z1 markets the "whole kit". Or so I suspected. What I failed to realize that as already mentioned, it was the toe bolts that just needed to be adjusted. As soon as I realized that, I was able to get my rear toe to a much more natural state.

Anyway... I took the car for an alignment yesterday and everything is perfect in the back now. Everything is on point. The front is a different story. They adjusted the toe up front (I believe), but left the camber/caster because they ran out of time and didn't want to start separating ball joints, etc. in the limited time they had.

That being said, my camber isn't bad. It's actually in spec (at least at each corner). But, my caster is way out to lunch now. I'm thinking of booking myself in for another alignment for just the front, to get it perfect. I know they can get the camber a bit better (I think it was out by just over 0.5 degrees from left to right... something like -0.86L and -1.38R), but the caster is out several degrees.

Is this normal? I've noticed my front sway bar squeaking more at the rubber bushing points- I've read guys just slap some Teflon lube in there and it goes away.. but I think it's pointing to a bigger issue- if the caster wasn't out by so much, that squeak would likely not be there. The guy at the alignment shop was saying he would have to remove the FUCA in their entirety and fiddle with them to get everything in spec... I was hoping they would just separate the FUCA at the ball joint and that's it.

Anyway, long story short:
1. I thought the RTAs were used for adjusting toe... which is not the case. Lesson learned :tup:

2. Everything is back in spec in the back. I didn't even have to drill out the holes for the SPC toe bolts in the back.. didn't even need them due to the modest drop. I'm glad, to be honest... stuff seems to rust rather quickly in these parts... I'm always wary in exposing metal, even if recoating it again.

3. Front caster is way out to lunch. Is it possible to get it in spec again, or is it a product of lowering a vehicle? If so, I will book my car in again to have the front properly dealt with.

4. No one died. And before I went on any open roads, I made sure the car was safe enough to drive by doing some test runs around my home (20mph in some areas).. and then even so, it was a direct drive to the alignment shop before anything else.

Another thing I've learned... in reading various suspension threads, I've noticed a number of guys mentioning they have weird suspension noises that weren't there before lowering. Specifically, I've heard of squeaking and thudding/knocking.

As far as the thudding/knocking is concerned, I had that issue initially, too. Mostly because I didn't have the service manual on hand, so I didn't know the hardware torque values, and I obviously didn't want to over torque something. But... a quick drive indicated noise up front... in looking at the service manual, I didn't realize the front sway bar endlink that goes through the bottom of the strut needs to be torqued to 120ftlbs. Everything seemed solid, etc. etc... but as soon as I torqued that nut to the right value, the knocking went away. I'm wondering if there are guys out there rolling around without those bolts tightened up properly. 120ftlbs, if just using a normal socket wrench, is a whole lotta force.

The second- the squeak- we all know it comes from the rubber mounts around the front sway bar... I know my caster is out beyond spec. I'm hoping by getting that corrected, the squeak goes away. Using Teflon seems like a bandaid solution to a bigger problem. I guess time will tell if getting an alignment will fix the caster!

i'm sure you'll be delighted to hear that SPL Front Upper Control arms are camber AND caster adjustable and will let you fit any wheel you want in front and align your car to your heart's design


and the problems with Z1's FUCAs make me never want to buy any of their suspension **** ever

I'm not sure what part you don't understand in that I do not have the discretionary funds to drop 1500 bucks on front upper control arms- especially after purchasing others already. I'm too far in to go back to stock, or to go down a different route. It's not even an option yet you keep ramming it down my throat.

All I'm asking for is help with my current situation. If you can't do so, then thanks.

Edit: and by looking at the SPL FUCA, I don't see any additional adjustments besides for the bushings moving in and out. Just like the Z1 arms. Though if anything, they're easier to adjust. I'd rather pay another hour of labor and save $1000, then throw away what I already have and buy brand new SPL FUCAs.

My Z1 FUCA'S came unscrewed left me stranded. Was sent replacement parts and updated lock tight, less then one year later ball joint snapped, again leaving me stranded and damaged strut. Z1 REFUNDED my money, went with SPL. No issues since and no more squeeks and bumping noises either. Lesson learned, no more Z1 suspension parts. I do have their 34 row oil cooler, and rear diff cover very happy with both. Thinking of trying their rear bushing inserts next.

You realize that Z1 FUCAs are not caster adjustable, right? Like, at all.
They also break and become unlocked, as described above.

Contrast: http://www.splparts.com/content/SPL%20FUA%20Z34.pdf

and again . . . Z1 stuff breaks. So there's that.

I'm saying your problem was half assing this to begin with, and continuing to half *** it is just gonna rack up more problems along the way

Throw on your stock **** and save up until you can do it right, or don't do it at all

or you can keep doing whatever you're doing and picking up new issues

its kinda sad you're automatically writing off "solid bushings"

Tires and coilovers have much bigger effect on ride quality then simply replacing a few arms with SPL stuff, its all in your head

Other than SPL, the only other caster adjustable FUCA is this SPC FUCA...

http://www.spcalignment.com/componen...AFrom&to=USATo

Ignore the MSRP.

I'm not trying to sound like a **** (but i will) . If you don't have the cash to spend on the right suspension parts, then you unquestionable bought the wrong car, or should leave it stock.

This chassis has by far the most complex suspension system out of any of the middle of the road sports cars. Not even top tier Porsche's have similarly difficult suspension system. Only reason why a Porsche setup would cost more is purely and only because of luxury taxes.

You are dealing with unequal length double A arm front pieces and 5 point multi-link in the rear (this being the bread and butter of tuning problems). Changing the static ride height at all would require significant changes on all points of contact.

You're welcome to drive around with crap alignment setup with no extra cost, but you'll have to pay to play somewhere down the line. Most likely because of premature tire wear or worn out bushings and subsequent schit handling.

Btw...you'll want to get adjustable swaybar endlinks as well. The torque values mean next to nothing if your length is not correctly set. Matter of fact, its best to have them slightly loose in comparison so that the wont snap off if you don't have the right length set for the weight balance and ride height.

Goodluck and don't kill yourself...

You have to realize that most of us here have seen aftermarket suspension parts break at one time or another. We know what works, and what don't. We are trying to steer you in the right direction. Sometimes it's a hard pill to swallow on the parts you bought are junk. I've been there myself. :shakes head: I fully understand your situation. My whole suspension is the SPL catalog. It wasn't cheap. But well worth it. The SPL upper control arms ARE adjustable for BOTH camber and caster. Install these and you and your wife will never notice any addition noise or vibrations. And the guy who is doing the alignment doesn't have to remove the tire or remove the arms to adjust them.

For your sway bar squeak. Where the rubber bushing is located on the bar. Remove the bushing, and wrap teflon pipe tape around that area. About 2 wraps. Then smear some grease over it. This will take care of your sway bar.

Can you post what your alignment specs are?

Here are threads that I put together on the SPL parts.

http://www.the370z.com/brakes-suspen...uspension.html

http://www.the370z.com/brakes-suspen...on-almost.html

You are getting sound and proven advise here. I have the full SPL catalog setup myself, front and rear. You got to pay if you are play as stated above but if you do it right the car performs with the best of sports cars. As OptionZero said don't get it right and chit brakes. I had a coil over seal blow while tracking which result in additional pressure on the front end link and it snapped. Do yourself a favor...do it right and never look back.

These SPC ones, are they good?

I am soon on the verge of ordering the SPL ones from US. But SPC brand is available locally, and would probably save me over $1000. So before I go ahead with the SPL FUCA, has anyone used the newer SPC FUCA?

oh my ******* god

this is ******* ridiculous

are really asking this ****?

you have been TOLD THE ANSWER MANY, MANY TIMES BY MANY, MANY PEOPLE

sell your goddamn car man

just take uber

I told folks to stop giving this dude any new ideas

he can't ******* help himself

If they were any good at all, people would be shouting it from the mountain tops as an acceptable SPL alternative. They're not good.

But if you want to throw some more money down the drain, why don't you try them out? :ugh:

you dropped thousands of dollars into your turbo setup only to spin out the first time you mashed on the throttle and then you've been asking about wheel fitment, alignment, and stability for about two years

every goddamn time you've been told you need the SPL and a competent goddamn alignment shop, plus a dose of common sense

you wanna buy the SPC **** and report back to us how it went, go the **** ahead

pretty ******* hilarious you got no problem setting money on fire making power and slapping on wheels but when it comes down to actually improving handling and wheel fitment OH DAMN I NEED TO HOLD OUT FOR THE BEST DEAL

:wtf2:

Holy Moly dude, relax. I was only asking because I saw this thread asking similar question and never heard anything about the new SPC ones.

But really man, i think I am going to stop asking questions for your sake. Just chill bro! Lol

I have been doing thay for a while now down here in SA. So i may aswell continue, nah joking man Im gonna get the SPLs.

maybe you should stop posting anything until the SPL's arrive and you get to a good alignment shop to fix your ****

As a former DSM guy these types of threads are very familiar. Half of the posts on those boards are “why did this cheap part break” or “how can I save money on this essential component” Per the advice on this forum I just purchased and installed all SPL alignment parts and they are without a doubt very high quality items and worth the money. I feel I am doing it right and not afraid to drive the car low and have something break or bind or seize up.

I am mostly annoyed that this guy clearly ain’t broke. Read his other posts. New Work 3 pc wheels and a turbo kit is over 10k USD minimum

But a couple hundred dollar difference in suspension parts and he’s freakin out

You’re talking a few hundred extra to do it right, once, the first time. The true expense is paying twice. First time for **** parts, 2nd time to correct things.

Then there's the 2nd time that is also halfassed, necessitating a 3rd attempt :ugh:

That's the problem, I am broke now after all that.

Anyways, I would like to ask one more serious question.

I am about to purchase the SPL parts, I have in my order list I have:
SPL FUCA
SPL Rear Toe Link
SPL Adjustable Bumpsteer front outer tie rod end
Z1 Eccentric lockout kit.

But on my Z currently I have installed is the SPC/Eibach rear camber arms, which I think my Z has fine rear camber specs with atm.

Can I install the SPL rear toe links and leave the SPC camber arm in there or do I need to remove/replace the SPC camber arm first?

The SPL rear camber arm is thicker all around and uses a superior adjuster that is easier for your alignment tech. It will never break. Google images of each arm the the diff is quite obvious

If you’re throwing all the arms on you might as well put that one on too. Theyre gonna be doing an alignment

On the Z1 lockout kit make sure you get the camber AND toe lockout

So you are suggesting I get the SPL rear camber arm and repace the current SPC ones already on my car?

Did I stutter?

Yes.

Lol

Well no I just thought no need to spend more money on it when my camber specs were not the issue.

It was my front caster and rear toe in question and I am getting the SPL parts to adjust those.

You wouldn't have had to buy parts twice if you had listened and followed the advice from the beginning. Trust me I have learned my lessons on doing it right the first time. Last lesson was burying Evo-r side mirrors did stupid twice I got the first set at a huge discount. Finally bought Craft Squares and there is no comparison as to the quality. Do it right the first or not at all.

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