Sway Bars, Track and AutoX?
 

I'm having a bit of an issue nailing down the sweet spot with a suspension setup in my Nismo. What I feel is that it needs more sway bar.
I seen a few different sway bars out there but each one seems to be a little different.

So what is everyone running, and what's really working out there in the real world of racing?

Thanks in advance.

I doubt your car "needs more sway bar". The best mod to invest in is driver and getting experience, lots of experience on track. After that I'd upgrade the brakes and tires.

If you're running R-comps then the general consensus is the super stiff Hotchkis bar. If you're on street tires it's either eibach or whiteline. More front bar is what we need.

Also something to consider is going to a square setup with your wheels. Did that on my Nismo and the handling was significantly improved IMHO.

You should do a search here and in the Brakes & Suspension thread. Many opinions out there on the best set up with Whiteline, Hotchkiss and Eibach being the best, but Stillen and others not being bad. Many folks here say that sways are the best performance mod behind a new exhaust for N/A cars. These remarks come from both those who track or just love to do spirited driving on twisty roads. I bought Eibachs, but I have yet install them. Good luck and read up then make the best decision for you!

I haven't been on a track yet but "canyon" running (in ohio we have crazy hills) the car felt ok with 255/285 tires, stock alignment (which in the rules of alignment are horrible) and a Whiteline front bar set to full stiff. I can't say I noticed anything with the front bar. The car maybe oversteers a little more but that could just be me giving it more gas trying to oversteer or the horrible OEM alignment numbers and the body roll is still horrible. Again though the car feels ok taking sharp turns but not a lot of confidence.

Just an FYI from all the reading though I'll probably keep the rear sway OEM (some auto x guys remove it completely), keep the front bar at full stiff, -2.5 camber front, -1.5/-2.0 rear for the street, 275/285, 285/285, 275/305, 285/305 tires (not sure still) and someone's coilover. At that point maybe I'll have insight.

Moral of the story don't expect much of a sway if everything else is stock.

Hopefully the columbus OGC will make a run to Doran racing in Cincinnati and I'll be able to pick his brain although his race rules make him limited like with tire sizes.

I run the hotchkis front bar and a OEM G37S coupe rear bar with KW V3s and 285/35/18 tires all around. every other sway bar combo ive tried( and ive tried alot) has not been as fast on track. Our cars like a big front bar

^^^ whats it rated at? I know its big but its also hollow.

I just switched to the Hotchkis bars front and rear. Have the rear bar set on the softest setting. No more lean, and the car will rotate now. :tup:

the hotchkis site has its own rating for it, but even though its hollow its the stiffest off the shelf oem fitment bar around.

i personally hate the rear hotchkis bar. stock or the G37S bar in the back is what id run on square setup, and at most the whiteline rear for a staggered setup

If they have their own testing then we're just going off personal opinion which I'm sorry to say is never right. People's butt dyno's are always off! 37 hollow vs 27 solid I don't see being the stiffest going to hollow.

Ps doran makes a stiffer bar than hotchkis.

ok so i dont know **** and all my on track testing and tire temp data, plus lap time data/gps telemetery data, and general driving feel assesment is moot :D ;)

ive prolly tried more combinations then alot of people on here on track.

yes i know Doran makes a race bar.

Clint has more track experience than probably anyone on this forum FYI, writes for an online motoring mag, and has some of the best videos of driver lines on the west coast for most of the local tracks. His opinion is pretty much money.

love my progress sways. have the rears on the loosest settings.

I'm running Eibachs front on full stiff and rear on soft. Night and day difference at Barber. As a wise person once said, "You can't have too much front bar on this car."

Doran does make the stiffest bar but if you fully read his statement he states "off the shelf" product. You can't call up Z1 and order them.

Here's a nice chart someone made up for some of the common bars.

http://www.the370z.com/attachments/t...tox-sways2.jpg

Find it hard to believe you only changed a whiteline set to full stiff out for a hotchkis, then tested without any changes in suspension, tire pressure, the days where same air temps and track temps (which would have no bearing at all on lap times haha), plus no way you could ever improve with more seat time from track day to track day. Cause that never happens. :ugh2:

Dont know if you're posting for the sake of proper info in this thread, or just trying to intentionally piss me off. But ill try to keep this tread on the path of information.

i have tried several front bars in a day, with the right tools i can change a front bar under 20min. There were times also that it was a completely different day and not the EXACT same track/weather conditions, but im not a noob and have taken such factors into account before i formulated opinions about such setups. Obviously you like nit picking to try and make me look like a idiot, and maybe one day we can torsion test all the 370z sway bars out there to see which one truely is the stiffest. But that of course will never happen, hell i may never even meet you in person. Fact of the matter is my on track testing, research, and experience superceeds you forum opinion in my book, and if you really disagree with me, then so be it. I was just trying to share a little info on a topic i have experience, even though i really dont have to. But call me a sucker i like to share info to a extent (passed a certain point i charge for chassis setup advice :tiphat: )

So if you feel my findings are flawed, then prove me wrong, or just stick to your opinion and potentially have a slower car around a track. whatever floats your boat.

Gentlemen, to those who posted useful info thank you, it's appreciated.

I think I'm going to try a Hotchkis front bar, and probably the White Line rear bar, then it will be time to get some skid pad testing done.

Thanks again.

PS. No reason to try to split c$nt hairs on this stuff, these are just opinions. Of course some opinions are better then others. :rolleyes:

Par for the course with Synolimit. He knows all. ;)

Also, Doran actually did a shootout with a torsion test on most of the common retail bars before making their own. BJ has posted some of that information here somewhere, I remember reading the numbers in lbs/inch for various bars.

(Like Hotchkis front was ~990lbs and their bar they made is like 1600 or something outrageous.)

I stopped reading what he has to say somewhere around this point.

:shakes head:Back to OPs original question lol, maybe describe to us why you think you need more sway bar up front. The understeer on our cars is pretty bad, the sway does help us out a lot by helping the front end stay flatter and not roll, but the correction to understeer is really a secondary benefit of the sway bar on our car. I will probably get corrected on saying that, but at least in my mind a sway bar's primary function is to kill body roll(which can accentuate/compound understeer or oversteer-in our case it is understeer).


If the roll is what you are trying to cure, my best suggestion is take Clint's advice, it's pretty much the same advice Doran racing gives, and pretty much the same advice every track goer with a 370z I know gives. Stiff as possible front bar and then a soft rear to tune it in at let the car rotate. Stock our car always seem to have the nose pointing to the outside in tough corners, never really makes that good pivot like you see the Evo's doing :shakes head:

No one said I disagree per say, but for the hundredth time your stating opinion and its your opinion which I'll disagree too. Seeing the bars side by side and charts somewhat like homer posted I'll believe hard data. You can be butt hurt all you want, gss138 seems to drop to his knees for you which I'm sure will make you feel better :tup: but again I'll believe data vs opinion. You're telling me hotchkis doesn't torsion test like other people! Seems funny don't it? Like every manufacture of a part somehow miraculously adds 20hp across the powerband...

soooo doesnt the chart homor posted show the hotchkis as significantly stiffer then the whiteline? on top of this you run a pretty heavy stagger with a narrow front tire, which is what i use to run too and the front whiteline on full stiff was enough, then i went square sizes and it really exposed the front Whiteline as too soft partnered with the KW V3 off the shelf rates. Speaking to Doran, they ran the Hotchkis before they made there own bars because it was the stiffest, they said it themselves.

in regards to GSS138 backing me up, for one he knows me from being in the same socal track scene, he backed up up cause he knows that im not some forum know it all who just talks outta his ***, im actually out there tracking and testing, using my knowledge base of suspension tuning from years of being on track...UNLIKE yourself who drives in the mountains...:driving:

Syno you need to realize when people are trying to help you and stop acting like a whiney little child.

For your information, Clint is a very well respected driver on the west coast. He is probably one of the top 3-if not best 370z drivers on the track scene on the west coast. The only people I could say are even in his class are the guy from AE performance, Mike B, and soon to be Martin82. Clint is the test driver for the MOTOIQ project 370z and has been very influential on how a lot of other drivers have built and tuned their 370z out here-and we have a lot of very good fast drivers. Clint is a professional test driver with 10-15+? years of driving and racing experience. He owns, builds, consults on professional/hobbyist race cars. If you like, you can watch dozens of his driving videos on Youtube and you will take 5 seconds off your lap times by following his lines.

You on the other hand, drive hills and entrance ramps in Ohio so you can hear your tires chirp and feel cool in front of your mom/GF/BF/Dog/Goat.

No one is going to take anything you say seriously. Vs. Clint's opinion which is respected by professional drivers and guys that build fast cars.

What it comes down to, is that yes people pay Clint for his opinion. Yet he's nice enough to come to this forum and give some general information for free, and you can't do any better than act like a little penis and asking him where he gets his data. He gets it on the track.

Yes yes yes, that experience and reputation is great and all, but does he weld, bro?

Does he have the balls to permanently modify a leased car?

If the answer to either question is "no", then his opinion doesn't count.

Duh.

I can JB weld, and my car does have a roll bar but I didn't lease it....NO BALLS!!!! LOL

So I was considering getting Eibach F & R and putting front on full stiff and rear on soft. My car is a street car, that will probably see some autoX. Would you say I should get Hotchkis Front instead then?

I looked at Whitelines but got mixed reviews from other members.

WELD ON ROLL BAR to be correct!

Bolt on is better.

Unless you have hard data to prove my spurious statement incorrect, I'm right and you're wrong.

LOL only lap times count bro!

Nope, too many factors. You must have a laboratory-tested roll-over study with at least 20 units and provide your results for a peer review before I will concede that you may not be a total idiot. That's the only way.


:rolleyes:

Oh please. Like you learn anything at the track. On ramps and hills are where you really learn what you and your car are made of. ;)

what do your tire sizes look like?

Running super stiff front sway bar. No sway bar in the rear. I M O your front sway will carry through to the rear. You want the rear to be a lil soft for full contact in the corners.

Running Kw3's with Custom valving and modified SPL A arms (before they came out with the official 370 z ones)

also running 18x10.5 square setup with 1" spacer in rear. tire size 285/35/18

All work was set up by Robispec. He does very good work !

that's robi's style, square and big front bar, no rear bar LOL
what front bar are you running?

And who made that? How does a bar with a surface area 21.5% larger have a weakness of 166% less? I said I like stuff "like" homer posted because its simple data you can see. But the back half I don't like because it makes no sense to see those types of numbers. Hell even the stillen is 37% stiffer yet has an even greater gap with surface area. Unless WL is made from silly string I don't see it.

I'm not taking out my ***, I'm not looking for help or crying, I could care less how well respected you are, I don't give a rats *** about you. All I said to start this was I don't care for an opinion and don't see one bar being better than another when the data isn't there. Simple, to the point, bitch on.

Coming from a guy that doesn't know what a helmholtz is and thinks rasp is good. Haha keep learning, maybe one day you'll be smarter than me.

well then you can just be slower :D

Syno, I'm guessing you don't have an engineering background since you seem very confused on how deflection calculations are made. The "I" column in the chart is "Moment of Inertia". It plays a huge role in how much something will deflect (how stiff it is).

fwiw I have a degree in mechanical engineering so I do know a thing or two about these kind of things.