Potential issues for hot upcoming track day?

matcop · 07-01-2013, 01:19 AM

I can attest to Seb over at Specialty Z doing great work. One of the very few shops that I trust. I use 0W-40 synthetic synthetic oil in my car. I change before and right after the track. Also, I could probably get away changing the diff fluid every other time at the track, may be a little OCD but i Dont want to take any chances. I change the diff fluid too.

If this is your first time at Fontana, I suggest paying the extra 20 dollars a day and getting a garage. You will be very happy sitting in a garage out of the heat and an actual place to make adjustments if need be.

After the heat, turn the car off, leave the parking brake off, pop the hood sit back and relax.

cossie1600 · 07-01-2013, 02:07 AM

Very comfortable because I have been doing it for three years, motor is still original amazingly. I don't think I have used anything other than 93 octane either, so weird.

clintfocus · 07-01-2013, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

Very comfortable because I have been doing it for three years, motor is still original amazingly. I don't think I have used anything other than 93 octane either, so weird.

what's 93 octane :P

im sure your tone is tongue and cheek, at least im assuming so.

Alot of people dont run more octane then tuned for on track and depend on the Knock sensor and ECU to pull timing in the case of detonation, im just of the belief why even get to that point, hence i run more effective octane then what im tuned for.

Same with the Oil temps, yes ive hit 260 pre oil cooler, and yes 3 years later my motor is still kicking, but id much rather not be operating at over 240 degrees on track.

Another thing, depending on driving ability and chassis setup, the amount of wide open throttle and load on the engine per lap varies from owner to owner, less experience guys may not hit 250 oil temp till 8 laps in, more experience guys may hit the same temps 3-4 laps in. So there are more variables then what can be discussed on a forum. I guess if you're having fun and not getting towed home by AAA, you're ok

cossie1600 · 07-01-2013, 01:17 PM

Have you ever monitor the difference in power output on the first lap of a session vs. the last lap with telemetry? I don't know about your car, but the difference in my car is marginal at best. I can easily match my top speed on lap 1 and the last lap even after accounting for how I come off the previous corner. I am not sure how much timing the ECU is pulling from the engine exactly. I am sure it pulled some due to the higher intake temp, but the actual difference in power is marginal at best. No way I buy into the whole knock sensor is sucking power out of the car BS, especially on a stock vehicle and the 370 especially. Racing gas is $6 or 7 bucks a gallon, I can spend the money on another track day.

I would be more worried about crashing than mechanical failures

Quote:

Originally Posted by clintfocus

what's 93 octane :P

im sure your tone is tongue and cheek, at least im assuming so.

Alot of people dont run more octane then tuned for on track and depend on the Knock sensor and ECU to pull timing in the case of detonation, im just of the belief why even get to that point, hence i run more effective octane then what im tuned for.

Same with the Oil temps, yes ive hit 260 pre oil cooler, and yes 3 years later my motor is still kicking, but id much rather not be operating at over 240 degrees on track.

Another thing, depending on driving ability and chassis setup, the amount of wide open throttle and load on the engine per lap varies from owner to owner, less experience guys may not hit 250 oil temp till 8 laps in, more experience guys may hit the same temps 3-4 laps in. So there are more variables then what can be discussed on a forum. I guess if you're having fun and not getting towed home by AAA, you're ok

clintfocus · 07-01-2013, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

Have you ever monitor the difference in power output on the first lap of a session vs. the last lap with telemetry? I don't know about your car, but the difference in my car is marginal at best. I can easily match my top speed on lap 1 and the last lap even after accounting for how I come off the previous corner. I am not sure how much timing the ECU is pulling from the engine exactly. I am sure it pulled some due to the higher intake temp, but the actual difference in power is marginal at best. No way I buy into the whole knock sensor is sucking power out of the car BS, especially on a stock vehicle and the 370 especially. Racing gas is $6 or 7 bucks a gallon, I can spend the money on another track day.

I would be more worried about crashing than mechanical failures

i never said i can "feel" the difference in power, nor have a monitored the difference with telemetry. I dont bring it up as a performance advantage, its just a little extra insurance by raising the detonation threshold a bit.

Also, i didnt say fill up your tank on race fuel, i said mix in some so your over all effective octane is higher. I do about a 1/4 tank of 100 mixed with the 3/4 of 91 ill already have in the tank (since all be have out here in socal is primarily 91 octane and that is what my car was tuned on)

a few gallons of race fuel is not alot of money, and its a nice bit of extra safety. Ive done it with all my cars in the past, both my street cars that see track duty, and my past competition time attack car and because of this ie never ran into detonation related problems or failures

cossie1600 · 07-01-2013, 06:12 PM

I am not saying there is anything wrong with what you are doing. I am just saying it's an overkill and god knows if it really helps. I guess placebo effect is a powerful thing. From my personal experience, the 370 had no notable drop in power from oil temp alone. I didn't get any notable drop in power, knock sensor sucking timing out of the car and other funny business that some of you guys were getting. Once again, my car is slow. It isn't fast enough to have half the problems that you guys are having.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clintfocus

i never said i can "feel" the difference in power, nor have a monitored the difference with telemetry. I dont bring it up as a performance advantage, its just a little extra insurance by raising the detonation threshold a bit.

Also, i didnt say fill up your tank on race fuel, i said mix in some so your over all effective octane is higher. I do about a 1/4 tank of 100 mixed with the 3/4 of 91 ill already have in the tank (since all be have out here in socal is primarily 91 octane and that is what my car was tuned on)

a few gallons of race fuel is not alot of money, and its a nice bit of extra safety. Ive done it with all my cars in the past, both my street cars that see track duty, and my past competition time attack car and because of this ie never ran into detonation related problems or failures

Kingbaby · 07-01-2013, 02:38 AM

very paranoid....if you prepare for the heat I'm sure your car will hold up OP...

Sh0velMan · 07-01-2013, 03:41 PM

I can tell you this, definitive proof or not, if my oil gets north of 240 degrees, I'm backing way off until it drops back down, or parking it all together. If there's even a chance that the bearings might last longer by not exposing them to those kinds of temps, I'll err on the side of caution.

I have a massive oil cooler and have never seen temps over 220, but that's probably because I'm a terrible driver.

Eighties Meta · 07-01-2013, 08:04 PM

Well this seems pretty evident at the dragstrip. Oil temp in the 160-200 range car runs from 12.9 to 13.1 like clockwork. Above 200 it starts to get progressively slower. Slower I ever recorded was 220 oil temp running 13.5s at a significantly reduced 104 trap. Granted boiling hot outside it was high 90s. If this is true at the strip I imagine it would be present on track to a degree but at least on track you have constant airflow. Ill have to start tracking timing as well.

It is odd though as on my two track days I havent had a decrease in performance that I could notice whereas at the strip its easy to notice. Interesting though

Sent from my GT-N8013 using Tapatalk 2

clintfocus · 07-01-2013, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

I do have the logs, but not in the details that you are looking for as I don't log engine parameters. I care more about lap times than what the engine is doing. Even though I don't have engine parameters, what I do have is vehicle speed and track positioning. This is how I came to my conclusion. Let's pick a track like VIR as an example. Coming out of Oaktree, there is a 4000 ft backstretch where you basically go from 50mph to 130mph. I take my acceleration curve in that particular section on my outlap/lap 1 where my engine is "cold", I then overlay the same curve from laps later in the sessions (I did this to multiple sessions, not just one). If your theory is true about noticeable drop in power under high temps, I should see a significant drop in my acceleration curve in the laps near the end of the session. Yet in many sessions i have looked at, I just didn't see any big change. Oh yeah, before you say how you come off the previous corner can effect the speed. While that might be true, but the acceleration curve should still remain the same as you are accelerating from 50mph to 130mph. By looking at a general curve, you see an overall trend.

BTW, I understand this doesn't have F1 type of accuracy or Mythbuster type of accuracy, but it sure is more accurate than a buttdyno

I will put something together once my baby goes to bed tonight.

I have posted plenty of data and videos. You can find them on the web for sure as I post most of it. I even overlayed them on top of another if you need to see.

Yeah i was talking about th engine parameter logs, ive done it a few times with my car just to get water temps, but havent really recorded everything else. I could if i had to. I get what you're saying though about your track telelmetry logs. BTW what data logger are you using?

Again though, wasnt saying "run higher octane and solid cooling for optimum lap time performance". I said run it so you have that extra over head of engine safety. The potential added performance would just be a bonus. I dont run the extra octane for the speed, i run it for that extra protection against detonation/pre ignition.

cossie1600 · 07-02-2013, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clintfocus

Yeah i was talking about th engine parameter logs, ive done it a few times with my car just to get water temps, but havent really recorded everything else. I could if i had to. I get what you're saying though about your track telelmetry logs. BTW what data logger are you using?

Again though, wasnt saying "run higher octane and solid cooling for optimum lap time performance". I said run it so you have that extra over head of engine safety. The potential added performance would just be a bonus. I dont run the extra octane for the speed, i run it for that extra protection against detonation/pre ignition.

I have used torque to log engine parameters via the OBDII port, but I really have no use for anything outside of RPM and maybe water temp for reference. To me it is a hassle to have a plug in between my legs, especially at the track. As I said, some of you are more into the engine/HP/tuning aspect than driving. I completely understand as I was like that 10 years ago. I just got past it and I really don't care about my engine unless it is smoking or Minis and Miatas are passing me.

I understand why you are using the high octane gas, I am simply saying it is an overkill on a stock car as the ECU SHOULD account for any possible detonation you MIGHT experience. And this is if your engine is really knocking that is. Also the effect of oil temp is greatly exaggerated in my opinion, I simply don't "feel" the same thing that you guys are doing. See what I am attaching below to support my claim. Do you guys carry 10x more in insurance coverage than your net worth too?

I have pulled the logs from my first lap and the last lap of the same session for comparison. Unless I missed something, I just don't see any HUGE drop in performance between both runs. A few horsepower maybe, but nothing so out of ordinary that would allow Miatas to pass me on the track. Even if you are right and my car is losing power from the heat, remember other cars on the track are running in the same condition too. Chances are that they will lose power if you do. BTW, I do back down every now in order to cool the engine/brakes/transmission/myself, but oil temp can climb from 220 to 260 within half a lap under full load. On a hot day, it got to nearly 280 at the end of the lap.

I would definitely be sought after by the courts for child support if I crash my car at the track

clintfocus · 07-02-2013, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

I have used torque to log engine parameters via the OBDII port, but I really have no use for anything outside of RPM and maybe water temp for reference. To me it is a hassle to have a plug in between my legs, especially at the track. As I said, some of you are more into the engine/HP/tuning aspect than driving. I completely understand as I was like that 10 years ago. I just got past it and I really don't care about my engine unless it is smoking or Minis and Miatas are passing me.

I understand why you are using the high octane gas, I am simply saying it is an overkill on a stock car as the ECU SHOULD account for any possible detonation you MIGHT experience. And this is if your engine is really knocking that is. Also the effect of oil temp is greatly exaggerated in my opinion, I simply don't "feel" the same thing that you guys are doing. See what I am attaching below to support my claim. Do you guys carry 10x more in insurance coverage than your net worth too?

I have pulled the logs from my first lap and the last lap of the same session for comparison. Unless I missed something, I just don't see any HUGE drop in performance between both runs. A few horsepower maybe, but nothing so out of ordinary that would allow Miatas to pass me on the track. Even if you are right and my car is losing power from the heat, remember other cars on the track are running in the same condition too. Chances are that they will lose power if you do. BTW, I do back down every now in order to cool the engine/brakes/transmission/myself, but oil temp can climb from 220 to 260 within half a lap under full load. On a hot day, it got to nearly 280 at the end of the lap.

I would definitely be sought after by the courts for child support if I crash my car at the track

cool data

well looks like you will continue to do what you're doing and ill continue to be paranoid. the OP can take the info as he pleases

cossie1600 · 07-02-2013, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clintfocus

cool data

well looks like you will continue to do what you're doing and ill continue to be paranoid. the OP can take the info as he pleases

We can wait for a recall like the steering lock too!

Sh0velMan · 07-02-2013, 07:44 AM

Anyway, OP, I would avoid tracking the car before a re-tune if you put LTH on it. That said, the FI LTH are pretty conservative, so you'll probably be alright as long as you give the car time to cool down after a few laps.

RN SHARK · 07-03-2013, 10:39 AM

Well, I went ahead and did it. Maybe I'll track this thing in August instead and just get my headers installed and tune the Z. There is another track day in beginning of September...

07-01-2013, 03:41 PM	#8 (permalink)
Sh0velMan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth Posts: 3,349 Drives: Noisily. Rep Power: 21	I can tell you this, definitive proof or not, if my oil gets north of 240 degrees, I'm backing way off until it drops back down, or parking it all together. If there's even a chance that the bearings might last longer by not exposing them to those kinds of temps, I'll err on the side of caution. I have a massive oil cooler and have never seen temps over 220, but that's probably because I'm a terrible driver. clintfocus likes this. __________________ Buy My Car! \| Build Thread

07-01-2013, 08:04 PM	#9 (permalink)
Eighties Meta Enthusiast Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Pasadena, MD Age: 55 Posts: 344 Drives: 09 370z 7AT no-sport Rep Power: 14	Well this seems pretty evident at the dragstrip. Oil temp in the 160-200 range car runs from 12.9 to 13.1 like clockwork. Above 200 it starts to get progressively slower. Slower I ever recorded was 220 oil temp running 13.5s at a significantly reduced 104 trap. Granted boiling hot outside it was high 90s. If this is true at the strip I imagine it would be present on track to a degree but at least on track you have constant airflow. Ill have to start tracking timing as well. It is odd though as on my two track days I havent had a decrease in performance that I could notice whereas at the strip its easy to notice. Interesting though Sent from my GT-N8013 using Tapatalk 2 clintfocus and threeseventy like this. __________________ 2009 370z Touring 7AT/AAM 2.5 true dual exhaust/AAM DE test pipes/z1 vqde35 headers/AAM cold air intake (R-line)/Motordyne M370/Quaife LSD/z1 brake upgd pkg/Swift Spec-R springs/WhiteLine Front&Rear sway bars with endlinks

07-02-2013, 07:44 AM	#14 (permalink)
Sh0velMan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth Posts: 3,349 Drives: Noisily. Rep Power: 21	Anyway, OP, I would avoid tracking the car before a re-tune if you put LTH on it. That said, the FI LTH are pretty conservative, so you'll probably be alright as long as you give the car time to cool down after a few laps. clintfocus likes this. __________________ Buy My Car! \| Build Thread

07-03-2013, 10:39 AM	#15 (permalink)
RN SHARK Track Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Delafield, WI Age: 45 Posts: 618 Drives: 09 370Z, 14 SRT GC Rep Power: 36	Well, I went ahead and did it. Maybe I'll track this thing in August instead and just get my headers installed and tune the Z. There is another track day in beginning of September... __________________ ___________ '09 6sp/Z1/PowerTrix/SPL/Swift/SRP/Whiteline/F.I.LTH&CBE/UpRev by Seb/CJM/Stillen/Ings+1/RJM/TrackSpec/Sparco/Motul/Wavetrac/Coolerworx/Verus/CraftSquare '14 SRT Grand Cherokee; '08 TL Type-S

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07-01-2013, 01:19 AM	#1 (permalink)
matcop Base Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Montclair Posts: 68 Drives: 2009 370 Z Silver Rep Power: 14	I can attest to Seb over at Specialty Z doing great work. One of the very few shops that I trust. I use 0W-40 synthetic synthetic oil in my car. I change before and right after the track. Also, I could probably get away changing the diff fluid every other time at the track, may be a little OCD but i Dont want to take any chances. I change the diff fluid too. If this is your first time at Fontana, I suggest paying the extra 20 dollars a day and getting a garage. You will be very happy sitting in a garage out of the heat and an actual place to make adjustments if need be. After the heat, turn the car off, leave the parking brake off, pop the hood sit back and relax.

07-01-2013, 02:07 AM	#2 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 31	Very comfortable because I have been doing it for three years, motor is still original amazingly. I don't think I have used anything other than 93 octane either, so weird.