Anyone ever experience Brake Failure as C&D did?
 

So I'm trying to decide if I should buy a 370z or not, and having had a 350z I too did experience brake failure on the 350 and do not want to experience it again. So I'm trying to find out if anyone WHILE ROAD RACING has experienced brake failure.

Thanks in advance

While I don't have any experience on the track, from what I've read, the car just needs DOT4 brake fluid and maybe better pads to prevent such a failure.

Stillen also makes a brake ducting kit for the front brakes if it still feels like you need cooler brakes.

^thanks for the reply, from what I've read it is not a problem of pads or fluid but with the cooling of the brakes. C&D reported that its basically poor engineering on Nissan and the brakes are not allowed efficient cooling and/or not enough air is getting to them from the front. The Stillen brake ducts may work I have looked at those. But still no guarantee with that unless someone on here has experience with them.

When my brake failure happened I had Super Blue and Track pads. I just don't want to buy a car that will be strictly for track and weekends and be afraid to push it because my brakes are failing.

Nothing wrong with the Nissan Akebono brakes ...... but if you flog them mercilessly then they will fade unless you have decent pads .... if you want to abuse anything it will fail eventually.

I have covered 65000 klics and dozens of track days and have had no brakes problems that I could not tie back to track surface conditions or plain old driver error ....

If you experienced "brake failure" in a 350Z - what were the circumstances and how much "mechanical sympathy" was exhibited .... do you actually understand what "brake fade" is, how you recognise it and what you do to deal with it ... because if yu don't, I'd invite you to undertake some research that might just save your life ....

A poor workman will blame his tools if he lacks the expertise to use them effectively.

This is a WOFTAM post ..........

yes, I experienced brake failure on my first track day at a brake intensive track. Running HP+ pads in front and stock in rear, in 20 minutes I wore the pads down to the backing plates, scored the rotors and boiled the fluid, which was valvoline synthetic.

The brakes do get extremely hot on this car, I solved the problem by switching to Stoptech Trophy brakes, which handle the heat or dissipate it a little better, and now I'm in the process of adding the stillen brake cooling kit.

I think if you just add the brake cooling kit, the akebonos will do fine. I know that had it been out earlier, I probably wouldn't have spent 7000 on the stoptechs.

btw, you will also need an oil cooler and a big gas can, because the car gets fuel starvation with less than 7/8 of a tank on right hand turns.

Mike thanks for the response I have read about the oil cooler and radiator and such, but my main concern was the brakes because of my past experiences with Nissans. I'm intrigued to know if the cooling kit by Stillen would actually work or not. I know some people on the board have created their own and had success.


BGTV8 No I have no idea what brake fade is can you explain that (rolling eyes). And if you read the title carefully you would have seen that I was referring to Brake Failure not Brake Fade. DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE... Either 1) You lack the ability to read carefully or 2) No you don't know the difference and that is why you use the two interchangeably.


Apparently its not a Waste of time, because as Mike said he experienced the same thing in his 370z. So you can go back under your bridge, troll.

There was no need, BGTV8, to assume he was naive to the terminology. Mikegreco, I'd suggest ignoring those posts. Most people on this forum are very helpful and won't flog posters regardless of the perceived quality of the post.

Mike is experienced and drives his car hard, so his opinion and experience are worthwhile. I sent you a PM, but I've never had brake problems with my 370Z after changing to RBF600 and Carbotech pads for track days.

If you love the car, don't let the potential brake issues stop you. And the Car and Driver Nismo disaster was purely their own fault...no car just loses 100% braking instantaneously without a catastrophic failure (eg blown line). Someone missed some warning signs and didn't back off if the accident was fade related.

well, I must say, the one time that mine went out, they felt just a little soft in one corner, so I backed off, and by the time I coasted into the pits a half mile later it took me about 50 feet to stop from 20 mph. When they do go, they give very little clue.

From what I've seen and heard, the 370z brakes go out pretty suddenly after the fade starts.

^ what he said.

I nearly lost the car at Long Beach this weekend to this exact problem. The fluid boils and you have no pedal. For 10 laps everything was good, then I had 2 soft stops and then it was *gone*.

Well routed ducting is what you need. Duct intakes that are inside the frame rails have to make too many turns to get good airflow to the brakes - you need something that starts outside the frame rails (requires cutting holes in the front facia) or comes in from underneath the car.

I wondered about that ... the Grand Am car has ducts in the fascia (way low and outside the fang area) that look like a fairly straight shot to the brakes.

Troll indeed - LMFAO

I am a sports car lap record holder at Philip Island GP circuit, Winton Raceway and Calder Park, state champion in open sports cars in VSCRC, and touring car driver at Bathurst in the '70's and involved in Australian motorsports since 1968 in off-road and circuit events - and I have sprinted my Z34 many, many times - you won;t recognise these places becuase they are 12000 klics away.

I have enough "mechanical sympathy" to estabish when I have placed an excessive demand on the braking system and need to back off.

My point is that it (fade or boiled fluid) is not an equipment failure, it is the fact that the driver has placed a demand on the system that exceeds the systems abilities .... and this is not a failure of the manufacturer - it is a set of events that is completely driver-induced.

To me, brake failure is a mechanical loss of the braking system .... systermic hydraulic system failure, failed caliper or master cyclider seal etc ..... in my context, boiled fluid is not brake failure - it is extreme brake fade and a failure to properly engineer the heat management solution for the braking system in the vehicle ... maybe this is a bit too subtle, but in my experiecne, talking to race engineer about "brake failure" is a discussion of a different kind and thats the race engineering context that I come from.

Your post talks about whether you are going to buy a (road) car based on the propensity for "brake failure" and canvasses feedback based on track use which I provided.

If you want a RACE CAR, then engineer the car accordingly and don't purchase an OEM road car expecting it to tolerate RACE CAR demands (unless maybe you go buy a 9xx GT3).

That was the point I was trying to make and I stand by the comments - if that's being a troll, well so be it, but my comments are still completely valid, even if you do not (or cannot) recognise the.

My last post on this subject to avoid clogging the interweb ...

Robin Bailey

:owned:

BGTV8 makes valid points...I experienced brake fade once on the 350Z during the first time on the track but that was driver-induced (braking too early and dragging the brakes all the way to the corner, street pads with stock fluid). After installing Carbotech pads, upgrading fluid and learning to brake, I never experienced brake fade again for the next 10 track days.

I now have the 370Z NISMO and have only been to the track twice but haven't experienced brake fade. The 370Z NISMO has better a brake system than the 350Z but I still run Carbotech (XP10/8) and upgraded fluid on the track. The 370Z is a great car but it's not a GT2/GT3; as long as you understand the limitations of the brake system and don't exceed the designed capability then you'll be fine.

What exactly happened with "track" brake pads and fluid that boils at 600F ??

What pads were you running?

:ugh2:

Do any real track guys actually use the Super Blue? They are way overrated thanks to the internet, same with the non racing compound from Hawks.

Nissan Motorsports Parts carries the Nismo carbon brake ducts.
Dwnshift

Link please. :D

Another fact most people dont know is the Nismo C&D had the brake failure was a press car that had thousands of tortured miles on it before C&D had it.

link to anything verifying the fact that the abuse was out of the ordinary? Every car at lightning lap had been an abused press car...


Their post-mortem (as always, to be taken with a grain of salt) seems to fall in line with the widespread opinion that it is an airflow issue.


They were able to melt the pads on another Z, which doesn't lend much credence to the "it was abused" theory.

Z Meets Wall: We Investigate Why the NISMO Z's Brakes Failed at Lightning Lap - Feature - Car and Driver

LOL. Do you have a special alert that lets you know when I made a post? Thread is over the all knowing Red_Zed has commented.

Nope, just shows up in my UserCP as this is a thread I had previously commented in.

Do you have anything to back your statement, or are you just going to try and deflect?

Yea I will put it at the top of my list when I get home.

ok.

It doesn't really matter how many miles were on the car, even with brand new stock pads you will burn through them, and as a result boil the fluid. An inexperienced driver will not recognize the softening pedal and keep pushing it instead of backing off. When the fluid boils you will lose the brakes instantly. VIR has some high speed braking zones that will generate a lot of heat.

The brakes do generate a lot of heat and there is nowhere for the heat to go and little to no airflow. The stock pads accelerate wear dramatically when the temperatures exceed 500F, this is the primary failure - soft, low dust pads. The more the pads wear the more heat that gets conducted to the calipers as the pads act as insulators. When your calipers start to heat the fluid past it's threshold you're in trouble. And it doesn't really matter if you upgraded your rotors and calipers, if you used stock like pads and fluids the problem would still happen.

So the problem is not the brakes, it is just the pads. Use high temp, low bite pads (low bite so as to not upset the ABS) and upgrade the fluid and you won't have a problem. The Stillen brake ducts won't hurt things either if you are a regular at the track.

Paul at NMP is sending the part numbers on Monday for the carbon front ducts.
Dwnshift

...are those dedicated to brake cooling ? They almost look like standard ducts that most locate at the top of the fascia ... they look similar only they are flipped upside down orientation wise and mounted way lower.

Thank you. :tiphat:

41152-RTZ40 rh
41153-RTZ40 lh
Yes they are purpose made brake cooling ducts for use on the NISMO nose.

I'm calling tomorrow for them. Thank you. :tiphat:

Ur welcome

Thanks for everyone that responded I'm in between three cars right now s2k, Z, mustang gt. I was aware of the issue and fearful of it, which is why I created this thread. Which it appears that from some of the responses my fears were well warranted.
Thanks guys and gals.

Given the cars in your search, you may find these threads helpful.

http://www.the370z.com/other-vehicle...rs-thread.html


http://www.the370z.com/other-vehicle...-thoughts.html


http://www.the370z.com/other-vehicles/42696-5-0-a.html



M4a1 and I have both owned all three cars you are looking at, so can probably offer a little more depth in answering (some of) your questions.

Hawk DTC 60 pads up front, RBF 600 motul fluid in the lines, and my brake worked just fine, and im not a slow driver on track :P

Any luck?

Did you order?
I know they got 10 sets ;)
Dwnshift

Guess not.

Wow bro you just love to watch yourself type HUH? Get over yourself your not as cool as you think you are. Man I wish I could be a god on this forum like you and continue to start Sh** with people with no negative consequences from the higher ups.Why dont ya go start another thread about how much you hate the Z.

I'm just asking you to back up your statement. You said you had a source, would love to see it. I am genuinely curious and would be happy to be proved wrong. No need to take everything personal.

:iagree:

Why are you getting so offensive? All he asked was for you to back up what you said. Seems like a reasonable statement in this technical discussion.

I'll be swapping out the brake pads and fluid on my base brakes and see how they hold up at the track. Will be going pretty easy for now since I'm just starting out. Since I am a beginner, can you guys give me some tips/hints on how to identify brake fade/failure and what I should do if I do recognize it while I'm on the track? Thanks :tiphat: