Third trackday! All is good!

miguez · 05-03-2009, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travisjb

Stillen sway bars performed well, I could feel that the left and right were tied together... I ran firmest setting in the rear, and it wasn't tight enough... Recommend that anyone going with the Stillen sway bars select the tightest fitment for rear for sure... I look forward to getting my bc racing coilovers from DDM - I think I lost some time accelerating in transitions due to body roll... I could also tell the tires were taking abuse with the stock camber settings, they were def rolling over and getting excessively hot on the outside...

Travis, what did you mean by the bold section above/ Is this an option when buying and/or installing the bars?

Thanks,

imag · 05-04-2009, 12:14 AM

I hear you about the flywheel - it feels like the revs are being held up above what they should be for some reason. I've driven Bimmers that did that, and it just makes me feel that much more disconnected from the car. My goal in shifting is to try to make the transmission do as little work as possible, which means matching revs, and these grandpa modes are a PITA.

And: brake fade? Maybe Nissan didn't put oil coolers on the car so people couldn't run enough laps to realize that the brakes faded. Once we upgrade the rotors, the differential will probably melt... It reminds me of the recent Shelby 500 press weekend, where it was obvious that the reason they didn't give the press more than one lap at a time was so they didn't discover how badly the brakes fade.

I'm still leaning toward buying the car, but I'm a bit disappointed that it takes so much work/money to get it trackworthy... really appreciate the detailed writeups from you and RCZ though...

import111 · 05-04-2009, 12:23 AM

HP+ pads aren't exactly a track friendly pad. They are in the same category as Ferodo DS2500's IMO (street/track). For 20 minute sessions you need to run a Ferodo DS3000 or a PFC-01 or something with else with a high heat tolerance that is meant for track duty only.

travisjb · 05-04-2009, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miguez

Travis, what did you mean by the bold section above/ Is this an option when buying and/or installing the bars?

Thanks,

Most sway bars are adjustable for how much pre-tension is put on them... there are some good resources that describe this on the net if you do a couple searches... search on car bible, suspension, sway bar for example

travisjb · 05-04-2009, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imag

...And: brake fade? Maybe Nissan didn't put oil coolers on the car so people couldn't run enough laps to realize that the brakes faded. Once we upgrade the rotors, the differential will probably melt... It reminds me of the recent Shelby 500 press weekend, where it was obvious that the reason they didn't give the press more than one lap at a time was so they didn't discover how badly the brakes fade.

Ha ! funny you say that, exactly why I was so high on the brakes last time out... never spent more than 10 mins on the track until i got this oil cooler installed

Quote:

Originally Posted by imag

I'm still leaning toward buying the car, but I'm a bit disappointed that it takes so much work/money to get it trackworthy... really appreciate the detailed writeups from you and RCZ though...

Look, I'm still recommending this car - I want ppl to know that!! I really enjoy driving it, and for comparison I have about 50 hours of track time in a mid-engine porsche, 15 hours in a corvette, and 5 in a formula car... I'd put this one tied for first with the formula car! ... and a leg up for practicality (drive to track). I think you could get away with simply adding an oil cooler, a few routine safety items, and maybe the right pads, if you really wanted to. I'm just looking for more.

travisjb · 05-04-2009, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by import111

HP+ pads aren't exactly a track friendly pad. They are in the same category as Ferodo DS2500's IMO (street/track). For 20 minute sessions you need to run a Ferodo DS3000 or a PFC-01 or something with else with a high heat tolerance that is meant for track duty only.

Appreciate the recommendation, I'll look into these... do you know anything about the compound difference that causes the difference or are you going on personal experience?

Josh@STILLEN · 05-04-2009, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travisjb

Appreciate the recommendation, I'll look into these... do you know anything about the compound difference that causes the difference or are you going on personal experience?

Travis, hit me up on Monday.. we have an entire brake division who is fully versed with track pads, compounds.. you're at the level where you're far exceeding the needs of the typical guy, I'd like to extend some of the resources we have available. I'd be interested to set you up with our Brake Manager to hammer out some of your needs, as at this point you're probably the main person I've seen take the 370Z to the limits of the factory brakes.. if you're going to continue to track the car in the current form with the factory brakes, it would be interesting to see what compounds are available, how easy it is to swap pads, etc. to give you some additional confidence in the brakes..

I personally think you're ready for an AP Racing system.. but we can talk about that..

imag · 05-04-2009, 09:28 AM

I *hope* there's a way not to resort to track-only pads. I'd be interested to know if the Carbotechs work better.

Probably the fact that I have much less track experience than a few of you will help me out - I won't be able to get the speeds up as high, which means less fading ; ).

I feel like once I get to swapping pads, tires, and who knows what else every trackday, it gets a little less fun. I'd rather deal with the lower times in most cases in order to be able to drive in, track the car, and drive home, without garage time. The alternative to me seems to be to get a dedicated track car, and that's a whole other ball of wax...

travisjb · 05-04-2009, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh@STILLEN

Travis, hit me up on Monday.. we have an entire brake division who is fully versed with track pads, compounds.. you're at the level where you're far exceeding the needs of the typical guy, I'd like to extend some of the resources we have available. I'd be interested to set you up with our Brake Manager to hammer out some of your needs, as at this point you're probably the main person I've seen take the 370Z to the limits of the factory brakes.. if you're going to continue to track the car in the current form with the factory brakes, it would be interesting to see what compounds are available, how easy it is to swap pads, etc. to give you some additional confidence in the brakes..

I personally think you're ready for an AP Racing system.. but we can talk about that..

I'll give you a call today or tomorrow... also, feel free to call Robert at Redline and talk it through with him... thanks Josh!

ChrisSlicks · 05-04-2009, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travisjb

I think you're right... How could I have forgotten to talk about the brakes ! hp+ pads

Thing 1... I could almost swear I'm getting a variation in stopping force from left to right... may just be that I'm trail braking and feeling it step out ever so slightly... but just didn't feel entirely balanced... could be related to thing 2

Thing 2... When they were at lower temps, they stopped really really well and predictably... but later in my sessions I was getting MAJOR fade to the point that ABS was kicking in and I was grinding to a halt going into turn 9, which is a 100+ degree left hand transition from infield road course to nascar circuit... I commented earlier that the stock rotors are fine, but now I don't think so... not at all... NEED SLOTTED ROTORS !

Thing 1 is possibly related to thing 2 and trail braking which might make for a temperature differential left to right.

Thing 2 sounds almost exactly like I was experiencing, I have experienced this on the stock pads and with the Hawk HP+. It's not regular brake fade however, as if it was truly fade the ABS wouldn't be kicking in at all and you're pedal would be heading for the floor.

My theory is that once you got the tires and brakes up to full operating temperature there was so much stopping force that the ABS computer didn't know what to do with it. It over-reacted and reduced braking force by pulsing the front ABS at a high rate. I think the ABS computer needs to be reprogrammed to account for the added grip. Adding more grip and/or bigger brakes may only make it worse. I think the stock calipers and rotors are probably fine. Brake ducting would probably be beneficial.

imag · 05-04-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

My theory is that once you got the tires and brakes up to full operating temperature there was so much stopping force that the ABS computer didn't know what to do with it. It over-reacted and reduced braking force by pulsing the front ABS at a high rate. I think the ABS computer needs to be reprogrammed to account for the added grip. Adding more grip and/or bigger brakes may only make it worse. I think the stock calipers and rotors are probably fine. Brake ducting would probably be beneficial.

Interesting theory... I can't find anything online that's similar for other cars, but it's semi-plausible. The ABS would read the rapid deceleration as a partial lockup...?

ChrisSlicks · 05-04-2009, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imag

Interesting theory... I can't find anything online that's similar for other cars, but it's semi-plausible. The ABS would read the rapid deceleration as a partial lockup...?

It's just a theory at this point. Would need some data logger results to show that braking deceleration was increasing (improving in terms of -G) and then a sudden drop off when it reaches a certain threshold. Any more detailed information on the ABS system employed in the 370Z would also be useful.

alan93rsa · 05-04-2009, 08:34 PM

I think it is a 6 series with 19 rows. Looks like the next size up will be the 6 series 25 row.

alan93rsa · 05-04-2009, 08:54 PM

Quote:

I *hope* there's a way not to resort to track-only pads. I'd be interested to know if the Carbotechs work better.

The pads aren't that hard to swap out. It might be something I'd not want to do at PIR in July.

After Dave Schardt drove my car at Mid-Ohio for an oil temp limited amount of time he was of the opinion that it needed a set of PFC/Hawk/...track pads. The calipers might hold up. The dust seals on the pistons will most likely be toast in short order.

I could find Carbotech XP10's for the front but there were no XP8's for the rear. Seems the rear blanks are a bit hard to come by.

Agree, a caliper upgrade with more swept area would be a nice upgrade. It would definitely help in the fade department. A wider caliper with a bit more pad wouldn't hurt either.

spearfish25 · 05-04-2009, 09:07 PM

Josh has been working with me to piece together a modified oil cooler kit that includes a thermostat as I'm in Chicago. I'm sure that he can price out a kit that includes a 25row core for those who are in need.

05-04-2009, 08:34 PM	#28 (permalink)
alan93rsa Enthusiast Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 412 Drives: 16 Cayman GT4 Red Rep Power: 220	I think it is a 6 series with 19 rows. Looks like the next size up will be the 6 series 25 row. __________________ 16 Cayman GT4, Carmine Red, Buckets, PCCB etc.

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05-04-2009, 12:14 AM	#17 (permalink)
imag Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 446 Drives: up the wall Rep Power: 16	I hear you about the flywheel - it feels like the revs are being held up above what they should be for some reason. I've driven Bimmers that did that, and it just makes me feel that much more disconnected from the car. My goal in shifting is to try to make the transmission do as little work as possible, which means matching revs, and these grandpa modes are a PITA. And: brake fade? Maybe Nissan didn't put oil coolers on the car so people couldn't run enough laps to realize that the brakes faded. Once we upgrade the rotors, the differential will probably melt... It reminds me of the recent Shelby 500 press weekend, where it was obvious that the reason they didn't give the press more than one lap at a time was so they didn't discover how badly the brakes fade. I'm still leaning toward buying the car, but I'm a bit disappointed that it takes so much work/money to get it trackworthy... really appreciate the detailed writeups from you and RCZ though...

05-04-2009, 12:23 AM	#18 (permalink)
import111 Track Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ. Posts: 622 Drives: 09 Nissan 370Z Rep Power: 191	HP+ pads aren't exactly a track friendly pad. They are in the same category as Ferodo DS2500's IMO (street/track). For 20 minute sessions you need to run a Ferodo DS3000 or a PFC-01 or something with else with a high heat tolerance that is meant for track duty only.

05-04-2009, 09:28 AM	#23 (permalink)
imag Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 446 Drives: up the wall Rep Power: 16	I hope there's a way not to resort to track-only pads. I'd be interested to know if the Carbotechs work better. Probably the fact that I have much less track experience than a few of you will help me out - I won't be able to get the speeds up as high, which means less fading ; ). I feel like once I get to swapping pads, tires, and who knows what else every trackday, it gets a little less fun. I'd rather deal with the lower times in most cases in order to be able to drive in, track the car, and drive home, without garage time. The alternative to me seems to be to get a dedicated track car, and that's a whole other ball of wax...

05-04-2009, 09:07 PM	#30 (permalink)
spearfish25 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 4,117 Drives: to work Rep Power: 1856	Josh has been working with me to piece together a modified oil cooler kit that includes a thermostat as I'm in Chicago. I'm sure that he can price out a kit that includes a 25row core for those who are in need.