looking for another oil cooler
 

hey guys. it's been a long time since i've tracked my car or been active on the forum, but i'm back. i just was at big willow yesterday and even with my tru-cool
8"x11" cooler (Long / Tru Cool Oil Coolers Long coolers Setrab coolers B&M coolers L7B), i'm still overheating and hitting limp (about 275 degrees) mode about 4-6 laps into each session. it was about 85 degrees yesterday.

i was hoping to do better, but ended up doing no better than a mediocre 1.43.3, which is exactly what i did a year and a half ago. i'm out of practice and it was just more frustrating that after a few laps, i'd have to pit and cool down. b/t overheating and fuel starvation, it's just too annoying and i couldnt concentrate on improving.

the first 4 track days i did with this car after buying it were all during the winter months and i stopped going after the weather got hot and never got back into it again until now.

is anyone running any other types of coolers out there that work no matter what? (hot summer days, all tracks, hard driving, etc.)? i'm looking for a once and for all fix.

btw, on the street it hardly ever gets above 200, even during very hot weather. during the winter (here in socal), i can drive 15 minutes to work and have it not get above 160-170.

thanks.

Look at the Setrab or Mocal lines. They offer a multitude of sizes. I don't know how many rows your cooler equates to, but I use a 25 row Setrab and only get to 250F after a full 20min session in 95F weather. Some guys prefer to go a step larger and use the 34 row. You'll definitely need a block off plate to stick in front of the cooler if you cant get your temps past 160F during DD.

I have the same cooler as you do and having the same kind of light overheating.
I should probably have go with the 11''x11'' instead ...

but the other option that I thought about was to make an oil to water cooler which wouldnt that hard to make .

AMPerformance are using that on their race car . I suppose it work as it should :)

Setrab and mocal also have thicker cores than the tru cool, which should help also

those tru cools dont even have real fins... i had one on my 350z between getting a good one. wasnt impressed with it at all. i thought it was a piece of junk.

25 row setrab/mocal isnt enough for maximum performance. i have the 25 row earls (same as setrab/mocal) and am able to get up to 210-220 on the street. I will be going larger or adding another at some point.

by only 250 you are loosing a decent amount of power, ecu is going conservative on the tune by then. defineately want to keep it lower than that if you want all your power

yes, i know. the car felt like it was just "bogging" when it gets that hot. it was very noticable on the front straight (and on turn 2 and 8 where i was close to full throttle). i'm definitely not one of the fastest guys out there, but still was expecting/ hoping to run 1:40-1:41. with some personal coaching and NO OVERHEATING PROBLEMS, i'm sure high 1:30's is within reach.

so you guys really think getting a setrab would help and that they're a lot better than the tru-cools? part of the problem with the tru-cool is that it's too "tall" and about 25% of it is covered by the bumper support, not being exposed to cool air. i need something longer (from side to side), but not as tall.

Direct airflow is of course ideal but the cooler will radiate heat even with no airflow. The real fins all over the quality coolers give it insanely more surface area to ditch heat. About 70% of my core is exposed to air. While I can get it up to 220 even on the highway with good constant air, if I lay off it cools down very quickly, maybe a minute. If i get it that hot when dealing with stoplights and limited airflow it takes much longer to cool. I sometimes think about putting a nice spal fan on the backside of it to keep air moving while idling at lights or in the pits

ecu doesnt pull timing based on oil temp.....

Call uprev and ask them about it. They told me last year but I can't remember the details. It was either at 200 or 220 it starts going conservative. I can't recall if it was timing or valve lift or both or what... But the results were a drop of 10-15hp pretty early and worse as it got hotter.

The power reduction is absolutely noticeable. It's why i initially asked about it, because the car is noticeable slower somewhere just past 200. I have to call uprev tomorrow anyway, I'll ask for the details since it's left my mind.

I have never been anywhere close to 200F at the track, but I can tell you power doesn't drop off much between 230-260F as I can hit the same top speed at the same spot at the track every lap.

edit; i dont care to argue with you about it. lol, its already proven. it is what it is. if youre running 230-260 degrees... cool your oil down, thank me later.

oil are more efficient at high temp, proven scientific fact. oil is a lubriant, it doesnt change combustion. this is 2011, most cars dont run at 180f. it might change the variable valve as i think it works off oil pressure

The oil temp is largely irrelevant, however it is an indicator of what the engine block and head temperatures are at, as well as intake temperatures which will have an effect on combustion. So yes, there is a correlation but it is not direct.

The interesting thing I discovered was that on track straight-line speed was roughly the same after 20 mins as it was in the beginning of the session, however climbing hills under load there was a noticeable loss of power especially in the lower RPM band. Would be interested to see why the low RPM is effected more.

Look guys, I've been in the peformance industry ten years. I know that oil temp does not directly effect horsepower measureably. The horsepower loss from oil temp in the 370 is a function of the ecu. Over the years there are plenty of cars that use oil temp readings to limit power outside of set limits. One example is my business partners m5 that lowers the revlimiter until the oil temp is warm enough or when too hot.

I don't really need you to believe me... But for you to argue it, you are using your own assumptions to debate proven facts that have been tested. I called uprev again yesterday about some stuff with my car and again verified with Rich there. Aside from him, I personally speak to most reputable VQ tuners on a regular basis for work, and have touched on the topic several times.

If you don't want to believe me, simply pick up your phone and call one of a dozen guys that know better.

If the 10-15 HP you're losing isnt worth a phone call to verify and small investment in better cooling, that's fine... If you don't want help from people who know, suit yourself.

ummm..the rev limiter on the m5 is to protect the engine due to the lack of lubrication from thick oil when it is cold and oil breaking down when it is too hot. thats not a good example of how a car running 240f will make less hp than a car running 200f under the same exact condition. ecu doesnt pull timing or trim fuel directly based on the oil temperature, you can say how it might change the cvtc's function or how it can increase water temp and consequently it might lead to timing being pulled due to higher water temp or different afm reading. i have my own set of data from my car, i still dont see any power drop from the first lap to the last lap. plug a datalogger in your car and see, you will be amazed the difference is not big.

detontation? knock sensor backing timing due to heat?

I don't want to argue about why the m5 does what it does that wasn't the point. The point is that there are many cars that have an ecu that have parameters and limits based on oil temps. Those parameters and their purpose will vary from one vehicle to another. As for your car and your data... Enjoy it, I don't really take it as any worthwhile information. I will rather take the word of industry professionals who have said so, and my own experiences that also prove it.

If you think you have nothing to gain by cooling your oil, than go ahead and run it as hot as you like. There's nothing left to debate. I hear you clearly that you don't wish to believe it, that's just fine with me. Carry on, there isn't anything left to say about it.

+rep

You made your points, I am simply stating the flaw to some of what you said. I would never dare to question experts like you or other professionals at some speedshops. What do I know? I am just a hack who happens to carry a little computer that tells me what is faster and what isn't. I am sure my timing program isn't as good as some guy who works on cars for a living. It's just such a bad idea to collect data at the track, better to keep it on the dyno or in the shop.

I do have a question. Since you are preaching about how wonderful overcooling your oil is, how come M5 has a mode to limit your revs when the oil is too cold?

I have the Setrab 25 Row with thermostat oil sandwich plate. Works great. Got mine from Z1.

I guess it would be easy enough to test on the dyno, just disconnect the oil temp sensor and connect a variable 5V source. You can then dial in any temperature you want to test what the ECU does at a given "fake" oil temp vs a real world temp.

I am not a professional, remember none of my data matters even though it is collected by a computer.

On my logs from May, the car had almost the same acceleration on lap 1 as lap 8 (difference of .32mph on average in the acceleration range). At 250-260F, I was surprised my Prius didn't pass my Z down the straight.

Nobody recommends overcooling the oil. M5 limits rev when oil is too cold because the oil is too cold.

Unless you build a block off plate or live in the south, you can't run too large of an oil cooler without the oil being overcooled in the winter. One of the thermostatic adapter plate is not going to cut it, you need the H type oil thermostat.

agreed, even with just my 25 row and the mocal thermostat, i can wind up with my oil being too cold.

you probably know that the mocal thermostat is not 100% bypass, it just has a passage that opens inside allowing a path of lower resistence for the oil. in turn, it only reduces how much is passing through the cooler rather than diverting it completely.

what i have found works for me, but is not always going to be a realistic option for everyone else... i let my car warm up before i drive it. if i just do what i did before the cooler, which was start driving it as soon as the coolant temp was a few "dots" up, then it ends up taking FOREVER for the oil to get up to operating temp. But if I let the oil temp begin to register on the stock gauge before i begin driving, then it finishs warm up rather quickly as i drive it nice. even on the coldest nights the only time i end up overcooling the oil, once the engine is heat soaked from driving a little bit, is if im cruising at like 70 on the highway in 6th gear for 15-20 straight just practically idling along... but even then i dont recall seeing it ever drop below 170 although it may have.

one of these days i want to research trying to build some sort of setup that uses a second 25 row off another thermostat. i would like to run it parallel to the primary cooler (in terms of plumbing, rather than in a series), but see if i can figure out a way to have it not open pretty much at all until something like 200-220. its been in my head, but i havent looked into what type of components may be available to accomplish this. i wouldnt want to do it if it became as complicated as having to use some sort of solenoid or motor valve and switched by a sensor or anything like that. i want it to use some sort of typical expansion thermostat.

I believe the Mocal can only bypass 90 or 98% of the oil. I have that adapter, that's why I said the oil will probably not come up to temp in cold winter days. 31R or 31R plus is nice, but it's not for everyone who has to drive the car on the street (especially people who lives in the snow belt).

Ya... Since it's just an internal passage that opens and closes, but has nothing that limits flow to the cooler... How much oil that bypasses the cooler is probably a function of resistance through the cooler.. So -10 lines and a -32 row might bypass a lot less than say -8 lines and an 18 row.

I've noticed this too. Funny thing but logical. I always give it 10 to do it's business.

It probably isn't necessary to wait for the oil temps to rise for normal street driving. The Ester oil, or any good synthetic 5W-30 flows well at fairly low temps. 5W refers to winter viscosity for a multi-viscosity oil. According to ehow.com, 5 weight oil will pour properly at -40 deg. F. That means you will get good enough lubrication for road use in most places. The 30 refers to viscosity at 212 deg F (100 deg C).

oil seems to take longer to heat up because you have cold air hitting the oil cooler!

this is 2011, i am not sure why people want to warm up their vehicle when the manufactures try everyway to get the car to warm up quicker and go into close loop

When I leave the house I'm ready to hit it. HA

I can tell you that oil pressures run near 100psi at 2k rpm when the oil is cold. Once the oil hits about 180F, the pressures drop to about 60psi at 2k rpm. Also, removing oil with my oil extractor is much slower with cold (more viscous) oil than when it's up to temp. Both observations are enough to make me take it easy until the oil heats up. However, i can't really comment on any detrimental effects of not doing so.

How is the Stillen oil cooler on hot days?

Also, has anyone looked at the Fluidyne cores? They're pricy, but Ive heard a lot of good things about them.

it looks like some of you think that the increase in oil temp affects hp and some say it doesnt. what i experienced on teh track is that when my temps hit about 260, there is definitely less power - not sure if that's from the engine making less power b/c of the heat or b/c "limp mode" is beginning to kick in. but for sure the car feels like it's bogging at anythign above 6000rpm - it just wont rev up or hesitates real bad as it's reving up. if i continue pushing it, then it will "bog" much harder and at lower rpms.

whatever the reason is, i just want cooler oil so i can avoid this problem. i'm just looking to hear from someone who's actually used a setrab (or any other cooler) and had good results, *even* in hot weather. the problem of "too cold" on the street, i'm not worried about - i can just block off the cooler or something.

If you track it just go big. You're oil will never be too cold on track and the closer you can stay to 220-230 the better. Setrab Series 6-34R or Series 1-72R are the way to go. If you drive very hard you can still potentially hit 260+ on very hot days, but typically towards the end of the session.

alot of us have used a cooler with good results. mines a z1 34. Normal driving temps in the summer are around 180 highway and around 210 in bumper to bumper.

On the track last z nationals i didnt go above 210 with the new cooler and 220 when I stayed in 3rd gear for the entire track.

ok, i just bought the setrab 34 row cooler and hopefully will have it installed by next week. the setup with the elbow fitting in the picture extends downward too much, so i may have to buy another set of male elbows to work with my current straight socketless fittings (which doesnt extend down so much). and i'll need to fabricate some new brackets.

my tru-cool will be up for sale if anyone's interested. may not be the best for tracking during hot weather, but on the street or cooler weather tracking or auto-x (in any weather), it's perfect - and way cheaper.

crap, i just realized they gave me the wrong cooler. this is a 25 row cooler, NOT a 34 row, like i asked for! i'll go back and get the right one next tuesday....

is there anyone with the 25 row cooler and NOT having any problems on track in hot weather? i wanted to get the 34 row, but after doing a lot of reading, i'm beginning to think the 25 may be ok. stillen calls their 25 row setrab their "race" cooler.

just comparing sizes, the 25 row is about the same as my tru-cool as far as the front surface area, but a bit thicker (and it's got cooling fins and just generally a much better design). so maybe just upgrading to the setrab 25 row will be enough to cure my overheating problems? or should i just go with the 34 row and plan on using some kind of block-off plate for street driving?

also the only difference b/t 25 and 34 row is that the 34 row is just taller (same width), but this wont help that much b/c that additional height is covered by the bumper support.

i cant decide......