How do you "sell" seat time over bolt-ons?
 

When someone new to performance driving asks you what mods they should do to go faster, how do you convince them that seat time will be a better means of going faster than buying shiny new parts for their car?

I used to just tell people "Seat-time you will crush bolt-on you." but I may have come up with a better analogy that just about everyone can relate to.

Typing

Most everyone operates a keyboard just as most people drive cars. However, I think everyone recognizes the difference between hunting and pecking (even quickly hunting and pecking as I am doing now) and someone, who actually knows how to type, machine-gunning off 100+ words per minute.

More to the point, I can't imagine any two-finger typist watching a real typist and thinking "If I had a keyboard like that, I could type 100 words per minute."

No. I think just about everyone knows that no keyboard on the planet will make someone, who can't type, as fast as someone who can. I think people also understand that one typing lesson won't get you up to speed either.


We hosted a Porsche club event today and this approach seemed to be well received among the new-to-the-track drivers.

This little epiphany, got me wondering how others deal with this recurring theme.

What are some of the approaches you guys use to "sell" seat time as a valuable means of going faster?

I asked this question on the other forum, but figured many here might have some good ideas as well.

I went to my first track day with my supercharger sitting at my house waiting to go on my street car. My second time in the track was much harder because of its power. The thing I remember most from my first day was my instructor saying " those Miatas passing you has noting to do with power!". With that said I try to do both, I keep improving on the car to make it better long term and know the lap times are on me.


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Lol. Good one.

The better me and the car get the more it hurts! I hate those Fn miatas!


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I've been told this over and over as well, and of course have yet to listen. Thankfully I've been able to curb my appetite for more power (forced induction) by reminding myself that there is a LOT of driving skill to tap into first before ever even thinking about more power. I've been lucky that the long list of mods hasn't bit me in the @$$ either though. Someone with a ton of experience would be a beast in my car's setup, but I haven't done half bad for now.

It's funny because the guys at my work understand that, but the one with a 2013 S4 tells me he will shmob on me in a straight line. But they all know I have more experience on the track so they shut up when I argue back. This year should be better since I'm getting much better tires. I just need to convince a few people in my office to come out with me.

I have relatively low seat time and lots of bits on my car.....worked for me.

Gives me hope there! Haha I think I do okay in autocross considering it was my first year. Last event I placed 10th overall raw time out of 110 cars that came out. Have a ton more driving experience to gain, but thankfully my car's setup isn't changing too drastically this year so I won't have to adapt to something new on the car.

......

Ha!

I have passed vettes, mustangs, and a z33 on track in a miata. I have been passed on track in my Z34 by a civic and GTI.

On a related note, I will be needing to actually SELL seat time in our lemons/chump car this year since we will be a few drivers short. Any good tips on doing this?

I was approached by a team a few years ago about this and I remember getting sticker shock from the license, suit, and other costs. It sounded like a lot of fun, but it just seemed like a lot of money to spend.

There are a number of companies that sell SFI1 "lemons" packages that are a bit over $300 that include gloves, shoes, suit, nomex underwear +/- helmet for extra. The license to race a weekend is $150, then normally the team asks for some compensation to let you fling their (read:my) car around.

Biggest expense that I'm going to have to get over is a HANS.

this

This is going to sound mean but think about it.... Go to an autocross, run in your legal class and then look at the pax numbers for the day, anytime you look and see you can beat a "car/driver" like a vette or porsche means that your driving skills are better then said guy with all those "mods" in the car. For instance I went last month and finished 7th, a modded gtr was 24th, he's got tons of money and a lot of said money in that car but was beat by something with half the power but more seat time them him.
hope that makes sense

PAX is flawed, but I digress. Hell I finished 4th in BSP at Nationals this year, but I was 7th overall out of 1185. Lots of poor indexes in there (BSP being one)...

Pax is hit or miss. The STF Mazda I drove in 2013 was a pax beast. Even when pax is "good", it still expects all cars involved to be maxed-out, no compromise full prep.

-not a lot of cars like that at local events.

I don't think I have been out paxed by any ST car at a National event in years...maybe Dixie last year when the car broke on day 2.

So many people buy a z and the first thing they ask is "What mod should I buy first?"

If anything, get an oil cooler and learn how to drive the ******* car first.

I'm kind of 50/50 on this idea myself. Having taken my car to the track fully OEM, and having done a lot since. Admittedly, some cars make better learning cars, I think ours is a decent middle of the road car to learn on. Not low HP, but not a 550 HP kill-a-noob-with-oversteer machine. It understeers like whoah, but that is actually safer for a beginner.

That being said, I kind of agree with what 350 is saying, a fast car, is just faster. And there is something a little more instinctual about driving a fast car, than trying to take a slow car and make it go faster. People sort of intuitively "get it" when they feel coilovers and springs vs an OEM spongey suspension. the feedback from a "fast car" is greater and more obvious, and feedback is what you need to learn.

Why not learn to drive a fast car first? Otherwise you end up in my situation, every time I go to the track it's like a new car lol.

I do like the typing example, it exemplifies a point. But really, wether you upgrade your car or not, there is a long learning curve ahead of you no matter which way you slice it. Seat time is the ultimate answer, but I can say from my own experience that I wish my car performed liked it does now from day 1. Some of it is because of seat time, but a lot of it is just the way the car feels now. It's lighter, better suspension, more power, better braking. It's honestly easier to drive.

As far as a seat time...I am a quality over quantity. I did less than 10 events last year and only at good sites/competition.

My point wasn't that a noob in a fast car would not be faster than a noob in a slow car. My point was/is that a noob will pick up more time from seat-time than car parts.

Anyone with zero track time that watches Mike in his BSP car and thinks "if i had all those parts, i would get those times" is wrong.

I know that using my wife's keybord will not make me able to type at her speed. I might hunt and peck a little faster from using better equipment, but no keyboard will get me up to her speed.

She's faster than me because she knows how to type and I don't.

I have seen a few noobs run out and buy race tires after their first event. They may pick up a couple seconds, but they were 5-10 seconds off the pace to begin with and tbey still cant get in the same zip code as veteran drivers on race tires. By the time they burn up that set of race tires their race-tire times *might* get close to veterans on street tires. -if they manage to correct the bad inputs that the race tires cover up.

I agree. doing the wrong stuff over and over won't help much. i have been two-finger typing for years and I still can't type 100 wpm. (Im faster than when I started though.)

Totally agree with what you are saying, if anything I'm proof that doing upgrades set you back lol. But , if I could have had my car today 2 years ago when I started, I think I would have ultimately learned faster.

You couldnt have sold the "seat time" aspect any better. I did my first autocross last Sunday and realized how fast I really wasnt. Civics, Miatas, STI's, VW's were all faster than me with less horsepower.

Now granted I wasnt pushing hard the first few runs but when I did my Z wasnt going where I wanted it to go. By my last pass I dropped 4 seconds.

I need some more major (SEAT TIME) to go faster.

I prefer sleep time. We need houses right next to the track

I think it's all relative...some are just better drivers out the box than others and if you were given a GTR would you not learn on it regardless of your time! I'm building my car first and learning to drive it and how it reacts to the upgrades, then I will hit the track and get some instruction. Different stokes for different folks and in the end I agree with cossie...man I wished I lived closer to a track!!!!

Well, when I was starting there was the Hyundai trophy dash cars - a mostly forgotten footnote in SCCA history. Hyundai was new to the American market at the time and gave a sporty (NOT) Scoupe to each region. At each event, the winner from each class was invited to take a lap in the car at the end of the day and the person with the fastest time won $$$ from HMC.

I missed the early years, but I did get to see a 10 years old Hyundai with faded paint, completely worn out suspension, rusted out exhaust, nasty bodywork (it seems the car had rolled up onto both sides multiple times over the years) and, my personal favorite, the ORIGINAL OFF THE SHOWROOM FLOOR all season performance tires! Yup, 35000 auto-x miles on the same tires.

Being driven by the best drivers around, that silly car usually placed within the top 25% of raw times each event.

Today, you could probably go rent a Chevy Aveo or similar. Make sure it's an automatic...

O

I see talent variations in new drivers all the time. Some people do have more natural aptitude for this than others, just as some people, who are naturally coordinated, pick up typing faster. Learning to type still trumps hunting and pecking. -Even really good hunting and pecking.

Seat time can make the mod path obvious. Once you get consistent, you can zero in on the things holding you back.

My first mod was almost a cat-back exhaust. I had ~1k burning a hole in my pocket after a about 6 2-day events and set my sights on a shiny new Nismo exhaust. My wife (GF at the time) asked me what it would do and I told her it would give me about 5-10 more HP. Then she asked me how much time that would shave off of my runs...."Well", I said, "maybe a tenth of a second on a 60-second course." Then she asked how much time I would pick up with an LSD (I was running an open diff at the time)....That would give me at least half a second and maybe even a full second on some courses.

The Quaife LSD was my first mod, ~10 years ago, and the exhaust was one of my very last mods, just last year. (Borla TD)

I'm not saying that there's anything "wrong" with modding your car. I'm just saying that modding the driver will net you more speed than modding the car.

What sold me on seat time was having someone be way faster than me in my own car.

Heck not even a national champion. I have a few friends who are instructors and they can kick my butt in my own car. I still beat them with karts though :tup:

That's one of the best things about being new to the track. When you first start learning, the time comes off in big chunks.

Your point about aptitude is spot on, that coupled with good instruction will always trump talent alone. Also, I agree talent can be developed...I just don't think it's about the platform. The (edit) GT Academy proves that...a Juke against a GTR, for reals! Boris would kick their butts straight up, he doesn't need paint balls!!!

Not really no...

...they'll adapt and put down top pax times in a few runs most likely.

I will bring it back to seat time given that the platform does not matter. The one thing all those which excel at the highest levels have in common in perfecting their craft is time spent perfecting their craft and that magic number is 10,000 hours if you want to be great!!! This include those who are gifted at an early age...probably more so because they obsessed. If you want a reference, check out a book called "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell.

I probably haven't made 600 autocross runs in my life....I'm reasonable good, not great, at it...

The major thing that goes with being great is access and opportunity, that is why we do not see a lot of minorities in motor sports. You got to have the means to have suitable car and maintain it, then access to a track that is open to you more than just track day and you need help (instruction, track time, money for parts). Yup for any of us to be good is good enough. Because it takes time to be good many will quit after the first couple of sessions. It's really a simple equation for any of us...Time/Cost/Value! If the TCV does not add up...then I'm out no matter what the endeavor is.

I usually got 80-85% first run and full bore by the second...

In an autocross setting, consideration of the equipment - and safety - aren't concerns the way they might be on the track. The whole "x/10ths" thing applies in a track setting as an indication of the level of risk you're willing to take in regards to your equipment and yourself. Autocross is ALWAYS run at 10/10ths.

Doesn't mean the best autocrossers can lay down perfect runs the first time. The course needs to be learned and if it's a vehicle type that autocrosser isn't accustomed to, it can take time. You can generally get a feel for the vehicle's performance envelope pretty quickly (within 1-2 runs), but to get that inch-perfect feel for where every corner is exactly, takes a little time. For some that might just be 1 run, for others it could take dozens.

This is true a national champ will figure out your car in 3 laps better than you will over the next year.