Proven Power Dyno Database Thread

[Jordo!]

And so... my (not so triumphant) return to proven power for a fresh summer baseline (no tune, K&N panel filters + cobb smooth tubes) and then a re-dyno with the take off Nismo exhaust (H-pipe from factory car rather than Y pipe off of S-tune).

Commentary and conclusions to follow...

First -- dynos of K&N + tubes, November vs. Agust. And, as would be expected, the baseline numbers are woeful relative to my boast worthy results taken back in November.

Behold the ugly effects of more ambient heat (gets worse when you see the dyno for the exhaust...)






And here we are with fresh (but saddening) baseline vs. with shiny new exhaust...






A more charitable version using the far more generous STD correction (again, unless you are running boost, where SAE will tend to severely underestimate power, STD for a NA car is basically like pulling on your penis until it hurts before measuring... use SAE ya fukin' bastards!)





Now... as to (tentative) conclusions (other than the heat and humidity are cruel and I look forward to re-dynoing in November).

I think the Nismo take off exhaust (as Sh0velman predicted? I think it was he) does seem to make a bit more power than the S-tune exhaust. I am hesitant to make this claim because the S-tune exhaust was added AFTER test pipes, and this Z still has the tree hugging factory cats... and there are also certainly to be diminishing returns as we add additional bolt ons...

Still, gains with Nismo take off were in the 3% - 3.5% range whereas S-tune gains were closer to 2.5% to 3%. We're squeezing apples and citrus fruits a bit here, so my verbal preference for the take-off version over the S-tune is very tentative.

I'll say this: If you can grab the take off for under $400 bucks, its a deal and a steal given that I rarely see the S-tune version offered for less than $500. So, from a bang for the buck standpoint, I have to give the slight win to the take-off Nismo.

More dynos (with hopefully happier results) coming soon... soon as the MFCSing summer in FL winds down

EDIT: Side note -- if indeed its just the temps assbuggering my numbers (seems to be the only logical cause), then I predict values just shy of 300 or a wee bit higher in November, and closer to 305 with a tune. (***EDIT: Still pretty hot here. Got nowhere near 300 until after the headers were on... oh well. It's the delta that matters, not the absolute value... sigh***).

Now I just have to decide if I want to install the PPE headers... ughh... it aint gonna be cheap (ran into some $ troubles last year, so they never went on), and once they're on, they're staying on... they continue to collect dust on my couch. Sigh.

[Jordo!]

Just for grins, I thought I'd compare a tuned dyno (later re-tuned for more a bit more power) of my 2010 Z vs my 2011 Z given that I happened to have two with very similar ambient temps (over 95* F!).

Note that the lower peak values dyno (2010 Z - titled "Summertime baseline") includes some tuning with uprev (tweaked AFR and ignition advance), smooth tubes, K&N filters, test pipes, and the S-tune exhaust (w/Y pipe). The humidity is nearly twice as high...

The higher peak values dyno (2011 Z - titled "K&N Nismo catback") has stock AFR and ignition timing, smooth tubes, K&N filters, FACTORY CATS, and the Nismo take-off exhaust (w/H-pipe). It also has lower humidity helping it a bit.

Air temps and air pressure are about the same. Same dyno, same shop (Proven Power, above ground dynojet).

Below are the values both SAE corrected (compensates a bit for different humidity as much as anything) and also uncorrected.

In the immortal words of Arte Johnson, "Very interrrrrrrresting...."

Interpret as you will.

Detailed comparison, SAE corrected.



Just comparing when hp and tq are (about) equal, no CF.



I dunno -- it's still inconclusive, but I'm thinking the S-tune exhaust kinda sucks as compared to the Nismo take off. Given how similar values were until higher in the rev range (with SAE correction), I'm not really convinced that the Nismo take off is simply benefiting from dynoing on a day with less humidity...

I think it's just a much better design than the S-tune exhaust.

Thoughts?

[Jordo!]

Good thing I like talking to myself

Ran some more calculations using this nifty link Relative Horsepower Calculator

Based on that, it appears we would expect uncorrected values to be only about 1.3% lower for the higher humidity run -- but they are much lower than that (around 3.5% lower).

Assuming my rationale and subsequent maths are right, this further supports my tentative conclusion that the untuned catted Z simply makes more power with the Nismo take off than a tuned catless Z with the S-tune exhaust when conditions are equal (meaning, the difference between them cannot be accounted for based on ambient conditions alone).

Moral of the story and recommendation when searching for a bang-for-the-buck exhaust: Pass on the Nismo S-tune, buy the Nismo take-off.

Additional implication of these data: H-pipes > Y-pipes.

[Jordo!]

PPE headers are on the car!

Dyno graphs and detailed commentary coming soon -- so far, on a below ground dynojet (different shop, but I'll go back to Proven Power for more dynos later): 290ish baseline (K&N panel, smooth tubes, Nismo take off, OEM cats), 315 with addition of PPE in place of OEM cats! (***EDIT: STD values were given to me -- SAE is lower***).

That's a nice +21 whp (without any tuning) to peak power (a gain of just under 10% from current baseline), so hopefully a bit more to be milked later.

More on this later tonight or tomorrow

[SS_Firehawk]

How do you like the sound change? You should Def see a bump in power after it's tuned. Nice jump in power if we are comparing against two dynojets.

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

[Jordo!]

Haven't heard it yet -- I've been out of town and will be getting the car today.

Yep, it's not the above ground dynojet at Proven Power, but the baseline and post-PPE numbers I noted above are both from the same in-ground dynojet at the same shop within a day or two apart.

I should have the car back later today and will post lots of details (graphs, commentary) later

[Jordo!]

Getting car shortly. Unfortunately, I'll have the drf's tomorrow, but allegedly 315 whp!

More tomorrow! I'll comment on sound at least later tonight.

EDIT: Much more power. Must retrain my foot. Breaks loose way too easily now.

Sounds fantastic! I'll see about a video or something later.

EDIT #2: Yeah, its definitely got a good bit extra oomph! Sounds great -- not much louder, but way deeper tone. A little bit of rasp and hiss here and there, but really, really mild. Definitely no worse (and maybe a lot better) than resonated TP's and nowhere as raspy/hissy as either a bigger Y-pipe or unresonated TP's.

Very, very happy with this!

Tuning next week, but will have initial baseline and post header dynos to share sometime tomorrow.

[Jordo!]

Well, for those who give a poop: I have not yet gotten the drf's, so no exciting before and after graphs just yet...

I'm sure I'll get them eventually. I'll definitely have tons of graphs and commentary to share after next weekend, as I am scheduled to do some tuning at Proven Power (not firmly locked in, but 90% likely, anyway).

So, quantitative results will have to wait

As to qualitative results: Wow! It sounds AMAZING! I really have to struggle to hear any rasp or hiss -- actually, it sounds pretty much stock, albeit a bit louder and a lot more menacing (in keeping with observations from both Sh0velman, who had my exact set up, and SS Firehawk, who had a highly similar setup).

When I give it the beans it kind of sounds like Frankenstein's monster on a rampage with each up shift -- as in, "Fire bad -- mrarhhhhhh---rahhhhhh-rahhhhhh-rahhhhhhhh"

And a lot more pull in each gear -- it definitely picked up a good dose of low to mid range torque (***EDIT: Inconclusive on that just yet -- the initial dyno's say no gains until after 5252 RPM. Stupid butt dyno...***)

I love it! PPE built a really great header! Looking forward to sharing hard data and possibly some sound clips, anon

[SS_Firehawk]

Glad to hear you're enjoying them. I'm happy I was able to keep mine with everything I did. They really do add it's own unmistakable signature sound to any exhaust.

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

[Jordo!]

Thanks, SS! And thanks again for the detailed info on your set-up

[Jordo!]

Updates, some good, some fair, some great!

1. The Good: I haven't had a chance to record my own soundclips (although SS Firehawk's clips are highly representative of what mine sounds like too), but here is a very brief vid of it on the dyno at Z Fever, where my good friend Martin did the install (also, shoot me a PM if you need to have some work or tuning done and are near Tampa...).

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater

2. The Fair: I do have the drf's now, buuuutttt... any graphs I post should be taken with a pinch of salt for the time being. The ignition pick-up was screwy, as was the O2 sensor, so torque values and AFR's are uninterpretable -- I'll have cleaner and clearer dyno output to share after next Saturday from the proven Power dyno.

Either my old November baseline or the last one from the summer will be close enough to give you an idea of magnitude of gains, and also, I'll have post-install pre-tune baselines along with tuned baselines for comparison.

I'll possibly post a preliminary graph later tonight -- but again, the readings are flawed, so they should be treated as better than no data, but will not provide the clearest picture of the gains to be had from the PPE headers. That will be clearer after next Sat, and I'll post tons of stuff.

3. The Great: As already alluded to in passing, I am definitely on the schedule for dyno time at Proven Power next week, so I will absolutely have tons more info to share with anyone who cares next weekend.

That's all for now -- maybe a quick and dirty graph of the "better than nothing" output later

[Jordo!]

Okay, it's dyno time.

I amend some of my previously noted caveats about the most recent dynoruns a bit; it seems using a different version of Winpep (curiously, an older version...) yielded more interpretable output. Go figure.

First step is to determine the accuracy of the baseline reading. In this context, measurement accuracy refers to repeatablity, meaning we should get the same (or nearly the same) scores across measurement sessions, all else being equal.

However, here we have a problem because even though the mods haven't changed, it's a different dynojet model at a different shop (Z-Fever's in-ground as compared to Proven Power's above ground -- and allegedly, Z-Fever's dyno reads a tad low relative to other dynojets), and the weather was very different (hot August vs. mild November).

So lets compare the last pre-PPE Headers dyno to the most recent.

Below is a comparison of my last dyno at Proven Power vs. my most recent one at Z-fever. Without correction, we see the ugly effects of high heat; with correction (both SAE and STD) we see very similar values and an equivalent overall pattern.

Notwithstanding some pretty sizable variance when torque and horsepower are equal at 5252 RPM (I suspect much of that being due to weather -- see further a few pages back where I showed that even with correction, ambient condition effects are minimized, but still have a profound impact on the obtained results -- meaning no correction factor is perfect), as you can see, even though it is a different dynojet model at a different shop, highly comparable results are obtained after correction.

Without Correction




With SAE or STD Correction






You will notice, as usual, the STD corrected values tend to be higher than the SAE values.

Okay, so the new baseline readings are close to the last readings obtained, so on to the comparison of baseline vs. headers...


First, with SAE correction, here's the new baseline dyno (K&N panel filters, smooth tubes, Nismo catback) vs. PPE dyno (i.e., PPE plus everything else); STD corrected results are reported after that. The last one is STD without smoothing to (shamelessly) milk the data for evidence of gains.








Obviously the advertised "315" that I was told the car had put down was based on the STD values without any smoothing...

Of course, either correction is perfectly legitimate -- although I personally prefer referring to the under- rather than the overestimate. It might be most meaningful to think of SAE values as a lower bound and STD as an upper bound.

Either way, whichever correction factor you use, the gains are clearly over 20 whp (as high as 23 whp!), which is in line with expectations. It's a bit more difficult to interpret what's happening with torque (although gains up top are pretty apparent) because of some signal pick-up issues, but overall, it's clear that the PPE's did a nice job bumping up peak power on the Z!

That said, I wouldn't be too concerned with the apparent losses at low RPM's for now -- tuning is yet to happen, and again, there was some glitchiness during measurement, so again, all of these results, while informative are only tentative. The picture will be much clearer after I go to Proven Power and tune the thing next week.

Bearing all of that in mind, here's a nice detailed comparison that shows changes at 500 PRM intervals above 5252.




Tentative conclusion: The PPE headers sound great and make great power, and are therefore a highly worthwhile N/A (or S/C, I should think) mod to consider. They're a bitch to install, but once they're on, you won't be sorry!

Well, that's all for now -- lots more at the end of next week.

[Jordo!]

One more set of dynos.

Given that we have some confidence of approximate equivalence in measures obtained from Z-fever's dynojet with those taken from Proven Power's, just for fun, here is a comparison of the Z's power with a totally stock exhaust system to its replacement, consisting of PPE LTH's and a Nismo cat back (both runs include K&N panel filters + smooth tubes).

Also note that the weather was very close for each run, which gives us further confidence that it is meaningful to compare one to the other with correction.





Yes, that is a massive gain of (up to) nearly 30 whp. Also, keep in mind the K&N filters and smooth tubes gave gains of another 5-10 over a bone stock Z, so these are pretty nice results from bolt-on's.

Looking forward to tuning

P.S. : After tuning I can also generate nice comparison graphs that should approximate a shootout between TP's and LTH's...

[Jordo!]

As with before, lets see if we have an accurate baseline as compared to the last PPE Headers dyno.

Again, the 1st PPE measure was taken at Z-fever's in-ground dynojet, whereas the 2nd measure was taken using Proven Power's above ground dynojet. Results are displayed with SAE and STD correction.







Right off the bat, notwithstanding a little noise due to any number of issues that are tough to perfectly correct for (e.g., weather), we see considerable similarity in the two measures even though they are a week apart and on two different dynojets (the moral here is: a dynojet reading anywhere will always be easier to compare to any dynojet reading anywhere else, which is why I am so vocally pro-dynojet over other dynamometers )

This also means that, taking the known limitations of correction factors into consideration, we can still make meaningful and informative comparisons between all sorts of set-ups with dynojets.

They should be interpreted with caution, of course, because of the many transient factors that will create variance (even on the same exact dyno on the same day!), but this general consistency will be helpful in making at least tentatively reliable concusions about what a mod does or doesn't do with more confidence than we might comparing, say two different Mustang dynamometer readings or one kind of dynamometer to another different kind

Ok, so that's all well and good -- on to the PPE pre- and post tune results on Proven Power's dyno!

First is a comparison graph with SAE correction, followed by one with STD correction, and then a graph with changes in output noted at 1000 RPM intervals, beginning at 4.5K, SAE corrected. The last one will be my "bragging rights" dyno, STD corrected (remember, STD is kind of an "upper bound"), with no smoothing to unabashedly milk the data for all we can.













Overall, we see some gains from the last dyno from around 3.25K up and very nice gains higher in the RPM range


Finally, a bit of sad news I see I'm losing some torque between 4 and 4.5K relative to my set-up before the PPE's were installed. Not sure why. This may be a characteristic of the headers on stock VVEL settings (we didn't adjust that yet) or we just need to play with the fueling and spark a bit more there...




A mystery to be solved another day...


Last, but not least, here are two graphs that compare my 2011 Z bone stock (under similar weather conditions) to now, with all mods + tune.







Oh... one more, just for fun: Here is a comparison between my 2010 370Z with resonated TP's and Nismo weldina (Y-pipe version) vs. my 2011 370Z with PPE LTH + Nismo take off (H-pipe version). Both runs are under nearly identical ambient conditions and both have K&N panel filters plus the smooth tubes and a tune.

Because these are technically two different vehicles (although, of course, same engine model and on the same exact dyno...), these results should be interpreted with caution -- but I think are informative, nonetheless.



I think we can tentatively conclude that the PPE LTH + Nismo H-pipe set up is superior up top (a whopping 13 or more whp), but possibly inferior down low (about 5 whp lost in a fairly narrow area) -- further tuning may resolve any apparent losses down low, so we'll just have to wait and see.

That's all for now

[SS_Firehawk]

I definitely like the comparisons. You're still running post maf tubes and K&N's too? The PPE's breath so well up top, if you're not running a CAI, it could be restricting it a bit. I'm thinking a lighter flywheel and pulleys will get you into the 320 range if you already do have a CAI, and maybe 330 if not :P.