It is deception, I think..

Jordo! · 08-14-2014, 07:34 PM

Manufacturers quote the lowest MSRP price they can legitimately claim to be the value of a new car.

That never includes tax, tags, destination fees, yadda yadda.

Arm thyself with the holy Black Book when battling these Princes of Lies. The Back Book is critical for buying a used car and useful for arguing prices on cars approaching the end of their MY or to make the case for a price around invoice on the magnitude of imminent depreciation for your new car based on past MY's (a weaker, more nuanced argument to craft, but a worthwhile point to make if they get defensive over the MSRP). Also, of course, find out the invoice price, which is usually several grand less than MSRP. More profit for them for doing very, very little work.

Also keep in mind: Whatever price is agreed to there is NO WAY they are not turning a profit for basically doing nothing but directing you to a car in a showroom, often without even any significant knowledge of the car you are considering. Find out the dealer holdback (on Nissans, I believe it is 3% -- that is pure profit they have already pocketed for moving the car from a trailer to the lot).

The guy who fixed your sandwich, carried out your garbage, and delivered your mail worked a lot harder and receives far lesser compensation for doing these necessary tasks.

Fight for the lowest price you can without fear, guilt, or sympathy. Expect the same vigor from the salesperson and come prepared.

Secure financing before you get there and never reveal how much you were approved for.

Review the very helpful Z buyer's thread for more details.

victort · 08-14-2014, 07:39 PM

how is that deception? they are not deceiving you in any way. The price is CLEARLY stated on the sticker

Malm · 08-14-2014, 07:55 PM

I read the title as "It is Decepticon, I think" ... I was disappointed..

BGTV8 · 08-14-2014, 08:06 PM

Fark ............. the innocence of youth .... those that fail to listen to the lesssons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes ...

Listen to your elders (thank you GranPaMoses and Jordo - all great advice !!!).

Also, a useful tip is to always purchase a new car on the last one ot two sales days of the month. All manufacturers and distributors worldwide work off rebates for shifting product per month and management will often OK a price at (or very rarely - below) dealer cost on the final sales day of a month because it may given them an extra kicker on their dealer rebate and/or a break on inventory financing costs for the new month.

I don't have a problem with a dealer loading the displayed price with cr4p because the only thing I focus on is the changeover or actual money out of my pocket ...

Purchasing a car is a negotiation so you need to negotiate !!!! Kicking the toys out of the pram becuase it is not handed to you on a platter is not negotiation

NoLaKrewe · 08-14-2014, 08:51 PM

So since the knowledge is strong is this thread, I will ask a question.

How do you find out invoice on your specific car? What are the best days of the year to buy a car? Best says of the month? Can you negotiate on prices when ordering a car? If you can negotiate a price on ordering a car, would it be in my best interest to locate a car of my interest and bargain down from there or just order the car I want. Is the knowledge of what fellow forum members well documented in a thread here worth taking to a dealer?

I am just asking as I want a 370z Sport soon and I've seen their stickers go as high as 35 and 36. I've read members get them out the door at 29-31 and I just would like to know how.

Jordo! · 08-14-2014, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoLaKrewe

So since the knowledge is strong is this thread, I will ask a question.

How do you find out invoice on your specific car? What are the best days of the year to buy a car? Best says of the month? Can you negotiate on prices when ordering a car? If you can negotiate a price on ordering a car, would it be in my best interest to locate a car of my interest and bargain down from there or just order the car I want. Is the knowledge of what fellow forum members well documented in a thread here worth taking to a dealer?

I am just asking as I want a 370z Sport soon and I've seen their stickers go as high as 35 and 36. I've read members get them out the door at 29-31 and I just would like to know how.

1. Getting invoice can be tricky (Edmunds and/or sites for the car who have already deduced it -- like here -- are an okay source). Someone here may have better ideas...

That in mind, even if you can find it unofficially, the dealership may dismiss the validity -- they won't dismiss the Black Book. I have watched salespersons visibly pale and sweat when they see it.

The Black Book lists official auction values that holds up in bankruptcy court and will list both MSRP and Retail. Get it.

2. Best times: End of MY (especially if a "refresh" is due) as they need to clear inventory. Holidays there are usually sales events (but find out what incentives the dealers are given -- often listed on sites like Edmunds) the "sale" to the consumer may be all bait and switch tactics. Generally if you are buying a car "out of season" (e.g., a sports car in the winter) you have more negotiation power. Taking note of how long a car has sat is good too -- its all about moving inventory for a dealership.

3. Negotiation power. If you know the actual value (or value it is likely to approach based on past MY's) from an authoritative source like the Black Book, there isn't much they can do except say no.

That said, be prepared to storm out. They will almost definitely call you back. If they don't, **** 'em. Let them sit on the car another 6 months as it slowly depreciates. Actually, go ahead and tell them that directly and firmly if you know the car has already been sitting there a while

4. Unfortunately, the only way to ensure you get EXACTLY the car you want is to walk in with a bag of money and not bother haggling. That's great if you are a Jay Leno, and have a cadre of personal shoppers, and not so great otherwise.

Even then, you will always be limited to what a given dealer can get you on short notice (i.e., trading car for car with another dealer) or has in stock. Be flexible enough in what you want to consider whether you are really getting your money's worth (a car is always a terrible, terrible investment, as almost without exception, they steadily lose value every second after they leave the factory).

By way of example, if you want a red car but can get a great deal on a silver one, how much is that color worth to you? You might wait and keep looking. You might decide silver is more to your taste, etc.

But one thing is for sure: You will not close a deal where they lose money. It won't happen. Oh, they'll grumble over how the deal is for less than they wanted, but let's be clear: Whether or not the sales team is "high-fiving" each other after you sign the paper, you can be sure they will not lose money on their deal.

So, arm yourself with as much knowledge (and grit) as possible, and be prepared to play the hardest of hardball.

On the bright side, you might not get the first car you set your eyes on, and, if so, take heart that another one you like will surely come along. Meaning, you have nothing to lose for walking out.

For them, it's their livelihood. They have to woo you, not the other way around.

5. Bring a good friend/significant other/family member who has his or her head on straight. Someone you can trust to drag you away from a bad deal if you falter.

6. Note all the other "dealer fees" and nonsense. That is PURE PROFIT on top of the rest of the PURE PROFIT they made for doing very, very, little. Be mindful of how much the price will shift as you approach "out the door" price. Tax, tags, and title costs are firm, but random dealer fees and the actual price of the car are NOT. Don't agree to a seemingly good deal where they get back the profit they "lost" via ******** fees tacked on. As you approach the final offer -- make sure you are given a clear OTD price with TTT.

I bought a car once and after negotiating a great deal (right at auction value via the Black Book) they suddenly added in another $600 in dealer fees as they drew up the bill of sale. I laughed and asked what they did for that $600? Make photocopies? Bring the car from the back of the lot to the front? They admitted it was pure profit and non-negotiable, so I said, great -- knock another $600 off the price of the car then. And after some grimacing, they did. If they didn't, I'd have walked out. Get the idea.

Happy shopping

andyj · 08-14-2014, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

1. Getting invoice can be tricky (Edmunds and/or sites for the car who have already deduced it -- like here -- are an okay source). Someone here may have better ideas...

That in mind, even if you can find it unofficially, the dealership may dismiss the validity -- they won't dismiss the Black Book. I have watched salespersons visibly pale and sweat when they see it.

The Black Book lists official auction values that holds up in bankruptcy court and will list both MSRP and Retail. Get it.

2. Best times: End of MY (especially if a "refresh" is due) as they need to clear inventory. Holidays there are usually sales events (but find out what incentives the dealers are given -- often listed on sites like Edmunds) the "sale" to the consumer may be all bait and switch tactics. Generally if you are buying a car "out of season" (e.g., a sports car in the winter) you have more negotiation power. Taking note of how long a car has sat is good too -- its all about moving inventory for a dealership.

3. Negotiation power. If you know the actual value (or value it is likely to approach based on past MY's) from an authoritative source like the Black Book, there isn't much they can do except say no.

That said, be prepared to storm out. They will almost definitely call you back. If they don't, **** 'em. Let them sit on the car another 6 months as it slowly depreciates. Actually, go ahead and tell them that directly and firmly if you know the car has already been sitting there a while

4. Unfortunately, the only way to ensure you get EXACTLY the car you want is to walk in with a bag of money and not bother haggling. That's great if you are a Jay Leno, and have a cadre of personal shoppers, and not so great otherwise.

Even then, you will always be limited to what a given dealer can get you on short notice (i.e., trading car for car with another dealer) or has in stock. Be flexible enough in what you want to consider whether you are really getting your money's worth (a car is always a terrible, terrible investment, as almost without exception, they steadily lose value every second after they leave the factory).

By way of example, if you want a red car but can get a great deal on a silver one, how much is that color worth to you? You might wait and keep looking. You might decide silver is more to your taste, etc.

But one thing is for sure: You will not close a deal where they lose money. It won't happen. Oh, they'll grumble over how the deal is for less than they wanted, but let's be clear: Whether or not the sales team is "high-fiving" each other after you sign the paper, you can be sure they will not lose money on their deal.

So, arm yourself with as much knowledge (and grit) as possible, and be prepared to play the hardest of hardball.

On the bright side, you might not get the first car you set your eyes on, and, if so, take heart that another one you like will surely come along. Meaning, you have nothing to lose for walking out.

For them, it's their livelihood. They have to woo you, not the other way around.

5. Bring a good friend/significant other/family member who has his or her head on straight. Someone you can trust to drag you away from a bad deal if you falter.

6. Note all the other "dealer fees" and nonsense. That is PURE PROFIT on top of the rest of the PURE PROFIT they made for doing very, very, little. Be mindful of how much the price will shift as you approach "out the door" price. Tax, tags, and title costs are firm, but random dealer fees and the actual price of the car are NOT. Don't agree to a seemingly good deal where they get back the profit they "lost" via ******** fees tacked on. As you approach the final offer -- make sure you are given a clear OTD price with TTT.

I bought a car once and after negotiating a great deal (right at auction value via the Black Book) they suddenly added in another $600 in dealer fees as they drew up the bill of sale. I laughed and asked what they did for that $600? Make photocopies? Bring the car from the back of the lot to the front? They admitted it was pure profit and non-negotiable, so I said, great -- knock another $600 off the price of the car then. And after some grimacing, they did. If they didn't, I'd have walked out. Get the idea.

Happy shopping

Great post Jordo thanks! Lots of valuable info here. Car dealers probably want your money more than they want to keep their car, so in a way the buyer has the advantage, within reason of course. With the last new car I bought, I told the dealer my price and made sure they understood that the number was "all in, out the door, including all fees". When we got to the paperwork part, I saw that they had actually lowered the price we agreed to for the car by the amount of the "processing fee", about $400, and then added to fee back in to come to the final price we had agreed to. They really loved their processing fee, I guess.

Jordo--I thought you had to be a dealer to get a subscription to Black Book-
are they available somewhere to the general public? Like you said, you can't be any better prepared than to have the same info the dealer has.

Zoren 370 · 08-14-2014, 11:06 PM

Informative thread!

Limeybastard · 08-14-2014, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGTV8

Fark ............. the innocence of youth .... those that fail to listen to the lesssons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes ...

Listen to your elders (thank you GranPaMoses and Jordo - all great advice !!!).

Also, a useful tip is to always purchase a new car on the last one ot two sales days of the month. All manufacturers and distributors worldwide work off rebates for shifting product per month and management will often OK a price at (or very rarely - below) dealer cost on the final sales day of a month because it may given them an extra kicker on their dealer rebate and/or a break on inventory financing costs for the new month.

I don't have a problem with a dealer loading the displayed price with cr4p because the only thing I focus on is the changeover or actual money out of my pocket ...

Purchasing a car is a negotiation so you need to negotiate !!!! Kicking the toys out of the pram becuase it is not handed to you on a platter is not negotiation

Made me smile.

Jordo! · 08-15-2014, 02:48 AM

I have a friend of a friend of a friend etc.

But, even without shadowy connections, you can get access to the Black Book

Black Book Auto | Home

It aint cheap -- wait until you are ready to buy a car, have financing set etc. This is only something you need when you are ready and able to buy.

In a pinch, NADA Yellow Book is a good alternative. KBB is really only useful if you are selling a car, trading in (to prepare for the screwing to commence...), or looking to buy from a private seller. It is not especially helpful for buying from a dealer (for starters, it presumes YOUR car is Average to Good and THEIR car is always Excellent and flawless...).

Edmunds and a few other online trackers can give you a ballpark on what the given car is going for in your area, but that only helps you to get screwed no better or worse than other folks (assuming their reports are accurate...)

The other stuff is strategy (e.g., don't be afraid to walk the **** out) -- and yes you have 100% of the leverage, because the worst they can do is not sell you the car. It's not a rare artistic masterpiece, its just another machine working its way to entropy.

All the Black Book does is give you a clearer picture of the absolute lowest you can even haggle for. It gives you a legitimate lower bound to start with and it defuses their ability to point gleefully at the MSRP, like that number means anything.

Of course, no matter what you pay, you are screwed, because essentially all cars are money pits and lose value steadily from the time it rolls off the lot. Strategy, patience, Tony Montoya fortitude, and some knowledge mitigate the depth of the initial screwing.

Note: None of this will work as well if you are in a situation where you need a car ASAP... then you have less leverage, obviously -- just don't telegraph that to the seller...

Limeybastard · 08-15-2014, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

I have a friend of a friend of a friend etc.

But, even without shadowy connections, you can get access to the Black Book

Black Book Auto | Home

It aint cheap -- wait until you are ready to buy a car, have financing set etc. This is only something you need when you are ready and able to buy.

In a pinch, NADA Yellow Book is a good alternative. KBB is really only useful if you are selling a car, trading in (to prepare for the screwing to commence...), or looking to buy from a private seller. It is not especially helpful for buying from a dealer (for starters, it presumes YOUR car is Average to Good and THEIR car is always Excellent and flawless...).

Edmunds and a few other online trackers can give you a ballpark on what the given car is going for in your area, but that only helps you to get screwed no better or worse than other folks (assuming their reports are accurate...)

The other stuff is strategy (e.g., don't be afraid to walk the **** out) -- and yes you have 100% of the leverage, because the worst they can do is not sell you the car. It's not a rare artistic masterpiece, its just another machine working its way to entropy.

All the Black Book does is give you a clearer picture of the absolute lowest you can even haggle for. It gives you a legitimate lower bound to start with and it defuses their ability to point gleefully at the MSRP, like that number means anything.

Of course, no matter what you pay, you are screwed, because essentially all cars are money pits and lose value steadily from the time it rolls off the lot. Strategy, patience, Tony Montoya fortitude, and some knowledge mitigate the depth of the initial screwing.

Note: None of this will work as well if you are in a situation where you need a car ASAP... then you have less leverage, obviously -- just don't telegraph that to the seller...

I use the dealers black book , I merely ask them to bring it out to me.

Jordo! · 08-15-2014, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Limeybastard

I use the dealers black book , I merely ask them to bring it out to me.

I never thought of that

Seriously, tho', the NADA Yellow Book is a good alternative and the prices are generally closer to Black Book prices than the ones listed for KBB.

NoLaKrewe · 08-15-2014, 05:29 AM

Thanks for all the help guys, it is truly helpful. I am looking around at cars and prices. Planning on pulling a trigger here soo

grandpawmoses · 08-15-2014, 06:06 AM

Excellent information guys. One more thing I might add is to not be afraid to travel a little. My hometown is medium sized but only has one dealership for each make of car. Setting a maximum radius you are willing to travel in Auto Trader or Cars.com gives you more to choose from. Remember if you can find what you want on a lot, you're going to be able to negotiate better than having a dealer order it.

kenchan · 08-15-2014, 09:33 AM

grandpamoses now one-upping himself.

08-14-2014, 07:34 PM	#16 (permalink)
Jordo! A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: nirvana Posts: 6,394 Drives: 2023 NATM Rep Power: 418	Manufacturers quote the lowest MSRP price they can legitimately claim to be the value of a new car. That never includes tax, tags, destination fees, yadda yadda. Arm thyself with the holy Black Book when battling these Princes of Lies. The Back Book is critical for buying a used car and useful for arguing prices on cars approaching the end of their MY or to make the case for a price around invoice on the magnitude of imminent depreciation for your new car based on past MY's (a weaker, more nuanced argument to craft, but a worthwhile point to make if they get defensive over the MSRP). Also, of course, find out the invoice price, which is usually several grand less than MSRP. More profit for them for doing very, very little work. Also keep in mind: Whatever price is agreed to there is NO WAY they are not turning a profit for basically doing nothing but directing you to a car in a showroom, often without even any significant knowledge of the car you are considering. Find out the dealer holdback (on Nissans, I believe it is 3% -- that is pure profit they have already pocketed for moving the car from a trailer to the lot). The guy who fixed your sandwich, carried out your garbage, and delivered your mail worked a lot harder and receives far lesser compensation for doing these necessary tasks. Fight for the lowest price you can without fear, guilt, or sympathy. Expect the same vigor from the salesperson and come prepared. Secure financing before you get there and never reveal how much you were approved for. Review the very helpful Z buyer's thread for more details. grandpawmoses likes this. __________________ Enjoy it. Destroy it. Last edited by Jordo!; 08-14-2014 at 09:03 PM.

08-14-2014, 07:55 PM	#18 (permalink)
Malm Track Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Palm Bay, Florida Posts: 706 Drives: 11 Nissan 370z bs a7 Rep Power: 12	I read the title as "It is Decepticon, I think" ... I was disappointed.. njobe89 likes this. __________________ 2011 370 Z Ark - Seibon - Aerojacket - Pioneer - Evo-R - Stance

08-14-2014, 08:06 PM	#19 (permalink)
BGTV8 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: 03350 Australia Posts: 1,503 Drives: 09 Nissan 370Z M6 Rep Power: 29907	Fark ............. the innocence of youth .... those that fail to listen to the lesssons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes ... Listen to your elders (thank you GranPaMoses and Jordo - all great advice !!!). Also, a useful tip is to always purchase a new car on the last one ot two sales days of the month. All manufacturers and distributors worldwide work off rebates for shifting product per month and management will often OK a price at (or very rarely - below) dealer cost on the final sales day of a month because it may given them an extra kicker on their dealer rebate and/or a break on inventory financing costs for the new month. I don't have a problem with a dealer loading the displayed price with cr4p because the only thing I focus on is the changeover or actual money out of my pocket ... Purchasing a car is a negotiation so you need to negotiate !!!! Kicking the toys out of the pram becuase it is not handed to you on a platter is not negotiation Jordo! and grandpawmoses like this.

08-14-2014, 08:51 PM	#20 (permalink)
NoLaKrewe Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: NoLa Posts: 469 Drives: 2011 FJ//2015 370z Rep Power: 12	So since the knowledge is strong is this thread, I will ask a question. How do you find out invoice on your specific car? What are the best days of the year to buy a car? Best says of the month? Can you negotiate on prices when ordering a car? If you can negotiate a price on ordering a car, would it be in my best interest to locate a car of my interest and bargain down from there or just order the car I want. Is the knowledge of what fellow forum members well documented in a thread here worth taking to a dealer? I am just asking as I want a 370z Sport soon and I've seen their stickers go as high as 35 and 36. I've read members get them out the door at 29-31 and I just would like to know how. __________________ Starting a NoLa Z club https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheBigeZClub/ The struggle will be real!

08-15-2014, 02:48 AM	#25 (permalink)
Jordo! A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: nirvana Posts: 6,394 Drives: 2023 NATM Rep Power: 418	I have a friend of a friend of a friend etc. But, even without shadowy connections, you can get access to the Black Book Black Book Auto \| Home It aint cheap -- wait until you are ready to buy a car, have financing set etc. This is only something you need when you are ready and able to buy. In a pinch, NADA Yellow Book is a good alternative. KBB is really only useful if you are selling a car, trading in (to prepare for the screwing to commence...), or looking to buy from a private seller. It is not especially helpful for buying from a dealer (for starters, it presumes YOUR car is Average to Good and THEIR car is always Excellent and flawless...). Edmunds and a few other online trackers can give you a ballpark on what the given car is going for in your area, but that only helps you to get screwed no better or worse than other folks (assuming their reports are accurate...) The other stuff is strategy (e.g., don't be afraid to walk the **** out) -- and yes you have 100% of the leverage, because the worst they can do is not sell you the car. It's not a rare artistic masterpiece, its just another machine working its way to entropy. All the Black Book does is give you a clearer picture of the absolute lowest you can even haggle for. It gives you a legitimate lower bound to start with and it defuses their ability to point gleefully at the MSRP, like that number means anything. Of course, no matter what you pay, you are screwed, because essentially all cars are money pits and lose value steadily from the time it rolls off the lot. Strategy, patience, Tony Montoya fortitude, and some knowledge mitigate the depth of the initial screwing. Note: None of this will work as well if you are in a situation where you need a car ASAP... then you have less leverage, obviously -- just don't telegraph that to the seller... andyj and grandpawmoses like this. __________________ Enjoy it. Destroy it. Last edited by Jordo!; 08-15-2014 at 03:11 AM.

08-14-2014, 07:39 PM	#17 (permalink)
victort Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 192 Drives: MB Rep Power: 16	how is that deception? they are not deceiving you in any way. The price is CLEARLY stated on the sticker

08-14-2014, 11:06 PM	#23 (permalink)
Zoren 370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: FL Posts: 11,018 Drives: 11 Nissan 370 M6 Rep Power: 1913653	Informative thread!

08-15-2014, 05:29 AM	#28 (permalink)
NoLaKrewe Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: NoLa Posts: 469 Drives: 2011 FJ//2015 370z Rep Power: 12	Thanks for all the help guys, it is truly helpful. I am looking around at cars and prices. Planning on pulling a trigger here soo __________________ Starting a NoLa Z club https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheBigeZClub/ The struggle will be real!

08-15-2014, 06:06 AM	#29 (permalink)
grandpawmoses A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Northport, Alabama Age: 80 Posts: 1,398 Drives: a hard bargain Rep Power: 26	Excellent information guys. One more thing I might add is to not be afraid to travel a little. My hometown is medium sized but only has one dealership for each make of car. Setting a maximum radius you are willing to travel in Auto Trader or Cars.com gives you more to choose from. Remember if you can find what you want on a lot, you're going to be able to negotiate better than having a dealer order it. Jordo! and andyj like this.

08-15-2014, 09:33 AM	#30 (permalink)
kenchan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: N/A Posts: 76,801 Drives: N/A Rep Power: 141520	grandpamoses now one-upping himself. grandpawmoses likes this.

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