Highest Octane For Stock ECU??

semtex · 09-03-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercennarius

The gains were made because of the oxygenated fuel, not because of the octane difference. Oxygenated fuels have a lower power stoichiometric and thus you have to run a richer AFR mixture then non oxygenated fuels to compensate. While oxygenated fuels will reduce gas mileage they are able to produce more energy during the combustion process.

Whatever, forgive me if I don't take your word for it. In any case, this still disproves the claim that race gas produces gains only if cars are modified.

Mercennarius · 09-03-2009, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

Whatever, forgive me if I don't take your word for it. In any case, this still disproves the claim that race gas produces gains only if cars are modified.

Its not the octane that makes the difference though. You only need high enough octane to resist preignition, anymore can't help you.

semtex · 09-03-2009, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercennarius

Its not the octane that makes the difference though. You only need high enough octane to resist preignition, anymore can't help you.

And how do you know this definitively? How can you be 100% certain that higher octane didn't account for at least some of that 14whp gain? Understand, I'm not saying you're wrong. What I'm saying is that I don't know for sure one way or the other, because I have yet to see any proof. I just see a bunch of people making claims, but I see no tests to verify one way or another. What I'd like to see is a video similar to the one IP did, showing someone dumping in non-oxygenated 100-octane fuel in. If the dyno reads 0 gain, then I'll be convinced that higher octane doesn't do anything, because that's actual evidence/proof. Let me put it this way. I wouldn't accept someone's claims that mod xyz produces huge gains without seeing proof in the form of dyno results. I doubt many of us would, right? So likewise, I'm not going to accept anyone's claim that xyz produces zero gains without the same kind of proof. As far as I'm concerned, until there is proof one way or the other, the question hasn't been definitively answered and all positions are conjectural. Also, just to be clear, I did not post that video with the intent of offering it as proof that higher octane produces gains. We obviously can't say that because the fuel they used was oxygenated. My intent was only to refute the claim that race fuel in general will produce no gains in the 370Z unless the car is modified for it.

kannibul · 09-03-2009, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

And how do you know this definitively? How can you be 100% certain that higher octane didn't account for at least some of that 14whp gain? Understand, I'm not saying you're wrong. What I'm saying is that I don't know for sure one way or the other, because I have yet to see any proof. I just see a bunch of people making claims, but I see no tests to verify one way or another. What I'd like to see is a video similar to the one IP did, showing someone dumping in non-oxygenated 100-octane fuel in. If the dyno reads 0 gain, then I'll be convinced that higher octane doesn't do anything, because that's actual evidence/proof. Let me put it this way. I wouldn't accept someone's claims that mod xyz produces huge gains without seeing proof in the form of dyno results. I doubt many of us would, right? So likewise, I'm not going to accept anyone's claim that xyz produces zero gains without the same kind of proof. As far as I'm concerned, until there is proof one way or the other, the question hasn't been definitively answered and all positions are conjectural. Also, just to be clear, I did not post that video with the intent of offering it as proof that higher octane produces gains. We obviously can't say that because the fuel they used was oxygenated. My intent was only to refute the claim that race fuel in general will produce no gains in the 370Z unless the car is modified for it.

Oxygenated fuels increase the burn rate. It's like adding a (weak) supercharger, and because the ECU is reading off the Air Flow Sensor on what's coming in, and is reading the o2 levels going out, I'm sure it's trying to enrichen the A/F ratio, which would in turn add more fuel and oxy-fuel, making the problem "worse" - I'm sure after a certain point the ECU wouldn't know what do to and just use it's default (rich) map to protect the engine...it's basically as if the fuel injectors are shooting in pure o2 out of a tank into the chamber, in a sense.

You get the same result by using nitro-methane...though, don't go buying R/C gas and sticking it in your Z.

USNA94 · 09-03-2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercennarius

Its not the octane that makes the difference though. You only need high enough octane to resist preignition, anymore can't help you.

This is spot on and 100% correct. Operating your car with anything higher than required to prevent knocking is just wasting your money. Octane rating does not relate to the energy content of the fuel. It is only a measure of the fuel's tendency to burn in a controlled manner, rather than exploding in an uncontrolled manner. Octane is not something you add to a fuel, it is just a rating on a fuel's resistance to preignition (knocking). Certain additives are added to the fuel to increase the octane rating. Until the 1970's, Tetra-ethyl lead was that additive (hence leaded gas) but has been since replaced by MTBE as the additive used for health and environmental reasons.

A fuel with a higher octane rating can be run at a higher compression ratio without detonating. Compression is directly related to power, so engines that require higher octane usually deliver more motive power. Engine power is a function of the fuel, as well as the engine design, and is related to octane rating of the fuel. Power is limited by the maximum amount of fuel-air mixture that can be forced into the combustion chamber. When the throttle is partially open, only a small fraction of the total available power is produced because the manifold is operating at pressures far below atmospheric. In this case, the octane requirement is far lower than when the throttle is opened fully and the manifold pressure increases to atmospheric pressure, or higher in the case of supercharged or turbocharged engines. Many high-performance engines like the Z's are designed to operate with a high maximum compression, and thus demand high-octane premium gasoline. A common misconception is that power output or fuel mileage can be improved by burning higher octane fuel than a particular engine was designed for. The power output of an engine depends in part on the energy density of its fuel, but similar fuels with different octane ratings have similar density. Since switching to a higher octane fuel does not add any more hydrocarbon content or oxygen, the engine cannot produce more power.

However, burning fuel with a lower octane rating than required by the engine often reduces power output and efficiency one way or another. If the engine begins to detonate (knock), that reduces power and efficiency for the reasons stated above. Many modern car engines feature a knock sensor which detects knock, and then sends a signal to the engine control unit to retard the ignition timing. Retarding the ignition timing reduces the tendency to detonate, but also reduces power output and fuel efficiency.

While working on my undergraduate degree (mech eng) I took a course on internal combustion engines and my professor was an expert in this field. I clearly recall him telling us that using a higher octane rating than required was a waste of money. He suggested that if your car did not ping or knock while going up an incline or hill (where this usually presents itself first) then you were fine with your current octane rating. We even had a lab where there was a Ford V-8 on a test stand hooked up to a dyno that we ran tests on comparing power versus different variable such as fuel mixture and octane rating. Our tests showed that there was no appreciable increase in power when using a higher octane rated fuel but there was definitely a decrease in power when using a lower octane rated fuel at the higher end of the RPM spectrum.

Now, would you like me to prove that Force=mass x acceleration or are you going to take my word for it?

semtex · 09-03-2009, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USNA94

This is spot on and 100% correct. Operating your car with anything higher than required to prevent knocking is just wasting your money. Octane rating does not relate to the energy content of the fuel. It is only a measure of the fuel's tendency to burn in a controlled manner, rather than exploding in an uncontrolled manner. Octane is not something you add to a fuel, it is just a rating on a fuel's resistance to preignition (knocking). Certain additives are added to the fuel to increase the octane rating. Until the 1970's, Tetra-ethyl lead was that additive (hence leaded gas) but has been since replaced by MTBE as the additive used for health and environmental reasons.

A fuel with a higher octane rating can be run at a higher compression ratio without detonating. Compression is directly related to power, so engines that require higher octane usually deliver more motive power. Engine power is a function of the fuel, as well as the engine design, and is related to octane rating of the fuel. Power is limited by the maximum amount of fuel-air mixture that can be forced into the combustion chamber. When the throttle is partially open, only a small fraction of the total available power is produced because the manifold is operating at pressures far below atmospheric. In this case, the octane requirement is far lower than when the throttle is opened fully and the manifold pressure increases to atmospheric pressure, or higher in the case of supercharged or turbocharged engines. Many high-performance engines like the Z's are designed to operate with a high maximum compression, and thus demand high-octane premium gasoline. A common misconception is that power output or fuel mileage can be improved by burning higher octane fuel than a particular engine was designed for. The power output of an engine depends in part on the energy density of its fuel, but similar fuels with different octane ratings have similar density. Since switching to a higher octane fuel does not add any more hydrocarbon content or oxygen, the engine cannot produce more power.

However, burning fuel with a lower octane rating than required by the engine often reduces power output and efficiency one way or another. If the engine begins to detonate (knock), that reduces power and efficiency for the reasons stated above. Many modern car engines feature a knock sensor which detects knock, and then sends a signal to the engine control unit to retard the ignition timing. Retarding the ignition timing reduces the tendency to detonate, but also reduces power output and fuel efficiency.

While working on my undergraduate degree (mech eng) I took a course on internal combustion engines and my professor was an expert in this field. I clearly recall him telling us that using a higher octane rating than required was a waste of money. He suggested that if your car did not ping or knock while going up an incline or hill (where this usually presents itself first) then you were fine with your current octane rating. We even had a lab where there was a Ford V-8 on a test stand hooked up to a dyno that we ran tests on comparing power versus different variable such as fuel mixture and octane rating. Our tests showed that there was no appreciable increase in power when using a higher octane rated fuel but there was definitely a decrease in power when using a lower octane rated fuel at the higher end of the RPM spectrum.

Now, would you like me to prove that Force=mass x acceleration or are you going to take my word for it?

Thank you for the detailed explanation. It makes perfect sense. I don't suppose you have any video clips of this dyno test or even just the graphs, do you?

USNA94 · 09-03-2009, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

Thank you for the detailed explanation. It makes perfect sense. I don't suppose you have any video clips of this dyno test or even just the graphs, do you?

I wish I did but as I took this class over 15 yrs ago (damn I'm getting old) all that stuff is long gone. But maybe if I poke around this interweb thingie some more I can find some data/graphs posted some place. Honestly, this is a pretty common lab experiment to run in engineering classes.

ZzzZz · 09-03-2009, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USNA94

Our tests showed that there was no appreciable increase in power when using a higher octane rated fuel but there was definitely a decrease in power when using a lower octane rated fuel at the higher end of the RPM spectrum.

Now, would you like me to prove that Force=mass x acceleration or are you going to take my word for it?

Yes, USNA94, please prove what the optimal octane is for the 370z.

semtex · 09-03-2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZzzZz

Yes, USNA94, please prove what the optimal octane is for the 370z.

Well, to be fair, the question of what the optimal octane for the 370Z is, and whether or not higher octane produces additional power, are two separate questions. Given the level of detail in USNA94's explanation of how octane works, I have no reason to doubt the information. It'd just be cool to see some definitive evidence is all. After all, unless he's making up stories, he was privy to such evidence by virtue of his lab test. It'd be nice if he has the graphs from that test or something to share with us.

Izzoh · 09-03-2009, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZzzZz

Yes, USNA94, please prove what the optimal octane is for the 370z.

Optical would be whatever octane you tune it for before it starts knocking and pinging ... its hard to say what its tuned for stock because the ECU is the learning type so it can adjust itself to whatever premium gas is avaliable to it. You could say that its tuned to 91 and will increase performance with 93 as it "learns" it or that its tuned to 93 and decreases performance with 91. Whatever works best for you I assume.

USNA94 · 09-03-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZzzZz

Yes, USNA94, please prove what the optimal octane is for the 370z.

If you would like to provide me your engine, a test stand, and a dyno (I'll supply the gas of various octane ratings because i'm generous like that) I would gladly provide this information with some pretty graphs and everything. If not, I suggest going with what the owners manual states. I hear those Japanese engineers are pretty sharp.

ZzzZz · 09-03-2009, 05:27 PM

Well, I might just spend some time and money on dyno'ing with 91, 93, 94 and share the results with you all. One of these days...

Quote:

Originally Posted by USNA94

If you would like to provide me your engine, a test stand, and a dyno (I'll supply the gas of various octane ratings because i'm generous like that) I would gladly provide this information with some pretty graphs and everything. If not, I suggest going with what the owners manual states. I hear those Japanese engineers are pretty sharp.

Blown32 · 09-03-2009, 04:10 PM

You are absolutely correct and explain it well.Unfortunetly there are those that when they hear the word "race gas" they right away believe it will make the car run faster.
As you said the only reason for race gas which is higher grades of octane is only needed for high compression to avoid detonation.It is hard for someone that isn't familiar with building engines or the mechanics of a motor to understand.
So all they are doing is wasting money.Hopefully what you stated will sink in and some will believe.There are of course those that no matter what will believe what they want to believe regardless!

semtex · 09-03-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blown32

You are absolutely correct and explain it well.Unfortunetly there are those that when they hear the word "race gas" they right away believe it will make the car run faster.

Well, it will if it's oxygenated, won't it? Or am I missing something? I understand the higher octane won't do anything, but the oxygenation helps doesn't it? (Not that I'd spend the money on that stuff to run on a regular basis, mind you.)

USNA94 · 09-03-2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

Well, it will if it's oxygenated, won't it? Or am I missing something? I understand the higher octane won't do anything, but the oxygenation helps doesn't it? (Not that I'd spend the money on that stuff to run on a regular basis, mind you.)

Not really, we oxygenate gas to to reduce carbon monoxide that is created during the burning of the fuel. It's an environmental thing, not a performance thing. One of the additives used to do this is ethanol and we all know what that does to performance.

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09-03-2009, 04:10 PM	#13 (permalink)
Blown32 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: N.J. Posts: 289 Drives: 09 370Z Blk sport 6T Rep Power: 17	You are absolutely correct and explain it well.Unfortunetly there are those that when they hear the word "race gas" they right away believe it will make the car run faster. As you said the only reason for race gas which is higher grades of octane is only needed for high compression to avoid detonation.It is hard for someone that isn't familiar with building engines or the mechanics of a motor to understand. So all they are doing is wasting money.Hopefully what you stated will sink in and some will believe.There are of course those that no matter what will believe what they want to believe regardless!