2011 370z, 400 hp..... hybrid?

BanningZ · 07-23-2009, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Florida_GATOR

Who cares about MPG anyway? we are driving sports cars...not prius sedans.

I drove a tank called a H1 and i got 5mpg on diesel but those forum members didint complain. I think the MPG the 370 has right now is pretty damn good. Im done venting

Umm because $6.00/gallon is coming and more HP for less $ is a win in my book.

Why the hate on efficiency and power?

If you can have both, embrace it. I will.

Too bad the FT-HS never made or the Alessandro Volta.

LiquidZ · 07-23-2009, 08:09 AM

How will you mod a hybrid? Bigger batteries?

Florida_GATOR · 07-23-2009, 08:10 AM

There's no hate on either, im just saying trying to make somethings, not everything, green could damage its image. Imagine a badass sports car like the Z having a super quiet electric motor and reduced power to save on emissions...just seems like the two wouldn't work together.

wstar · 07-23-2009, 08:35 AM

I'm still not a fan of hybrid technology. It's an inefficient, wasteful design compared to an all-electric with a generator for extended range.

The correct design for an all-electric is: 4 electric motors, one in each wheel as an integral part of the hub/wheel, a sizable battery system that's capable, and a very advanced ECU to control the 4 motors and the charging system. There's no gearing and no drivetrain losses in such a setup. You get instant torque from 0rpm at all wheels. Top speed is limited by max engine RPM, but is usually sufficient (120 mph or higher, at the least). You also don't need conventional brakes, as the ECU can reverse current flow to the engines for torque braking that's more powerful than conventional brakes anyways (although I'm sure they'll have to add some kind of mechanical e-brake for power failure scenarios), and you get regenerative braking with that to help battery range. Prototypes of these designs have already been built by multiple smaller companies. Since the ECU can control individual torque at all 4 wheels (both negative (braking) and positive (accel)), it's also possible in software to replace all the functions of "limited slip", "ABS", "traction control", etc with much more advanced and precise variants. They get acceleration times that blow the doors off of just about anything.

The only issue is usually the allowable travelling range on a battery pack of reasonable weight. The solution? A tiny (we're talking lawn-mower-sized) 2-cycle gasoline or diesel engine in the trunk, which runs at a fixed RPM very efficiently powering a small generator to keep the batteries topped off. For extended trips, you just gas up the small tank on the generator, and it's still vastly more fuel/power-efficient for the long-haul than any conventional or hybrid.

Why automakers continue dragging their feet with this "hybrid" drivetrain stuff, I don't know. Both the tree-huggers and the racers win with an all-electric design. The few that have been hand-built have been very expensive (the batteries and the motors being the huge expense obviously), but if a major auto manufacturer did this they would achieve much better economies of scale and drive the component prices down.

Florida_GATOR · 07-23-2009, 08:39 AM

370Zilla · 07-23-2009, 09:32 AM

Great post wstar!

One reason they have not done this is the retooling costs. They are setup to make the types of vehicles they make. They don't want to spend the money, and have the downtime to retool the factories, and retrain the workers. Not to mention training technicians for repair. IMHO, they should have used the bailout money for this.

Evolved · 07-23-2009, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Florida_GATOR

There's no hate on either, im just saying trying to make somethings, not everything, green could damage its image. Imagine a badass sports car like the Z having a super quiet electric motor and reduced power to save on emissions...just seems like the two wouldn't work together.

And what emissions would an electric car have?

Florida_GATOR · 07-23-2009, 09:56 AM

none, they would reduce power from the sports car to make it less harmfull to the earth.

tolnep · 07-23-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidZ

How will you mod a hybrid? Bigger batteries?

HAR!..

when i was a wee bitty fellar.. some of us were into slot cars.. you'd buy em and go to these slot car tracks and race em.. the true gurus of that world did things like taking their itty bitty motors out and rewinding the coils to pull more power somehow.. i think it actually would suck power into their cars and reduce power to others.. dunno though..

hotrodding electric motors will be cool.. perhaps cooler than hydro-carbon based engines... imagine dropping a locomotive electric motor into a volkswagon and showing up a the local track....

Alexus · 07-23-2009, 01:58 PM

The FT-HS is still under development and should debut some time next year as a 2011 model year.

FricFrac · 07-23-2009, 02:37 PM

WStar the four wheel/motor system is going to be a huge leap in how the car handles as well. There is no need for a differential you can program LSD however you want it to react - its going to give unbelievable handling characteristics.

As for our love or hate for hybrids they are going to be here regardless. Its the step consumers need to take going from gas to electric - its part of the psychology of changing technologies. Its the same reason your DVD player is backwards compatible with your CD player, etc. We don't like change even if its for the better so Hybrids are part of the transition. Full electric will be outstanding and with battery technologies changing as rapidly as they have been the future isn't far off. An electric motor will eat any gas motor - its just a matter of time before we can carry enough electrons in our cars to make this possible.

FricFrac · 07-23-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tolnep

HAR!..

when i was a wee bitty fellar.. some of us were into slot cars.. you'd buy em and go to these slot car tracks and race em.. the true gurus of that world did things like taking their itty bitty motors out and rewinding the coils to pull more power somehow.. i think it actually would suck power into their cars and reduce power to others.. dunno though..

hotrodding electric motors will be cool.. perhaps cooler than hydro-carbon based engines... imagine dropping a locomotive electric motor into a volkswagon and showing up a the local track....

lol - just take a few winds off your motor and it will draw more current and in turn (no pun intended there) will produce more power. It will also put more load on the power supply and if the power supply isn't up to the task the other cars will be slower

Hot rodding electric motors is already huge with the R/C guys and the new brushless technology its the software in the speed controller that is making huge leaps in performance including software timing advance, etc...

Mergnthwirker · 07-23-2009, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

I'm still not a fan of hybrid technology. It's an inefficient, wasteful design compared to an all-electric with a generator for extended range.

Why automakers continue dragging their feet with this "hybrid" drivetrain stuff, I don't know. Both the tree-huggers and the racers win with an all-electric design. The few that have been hand-built have been very expensive (the batteries and the motors being the huge expense obviously), but if a major auto manufacturer did this they would achieve much better economies of scale and drive the component prices down.

I hate hybrids and hope to avoid them as long as possible. They only represent a stop-gap solution in my book, but one that can be sold to the public since they don't require major changes in behavior to use them.

I work for several automakers as a supplier, and I do not see any of them "dragging their feet" on all-electric design. The limitations of current battery tech are very real. Did you happen to see the Business Week article on problems with li-on battery packs catching fire? It only takes a single bad cell to start a chain reaction and the best batteries today use hundreds of them.

Power grid issues are pretty significant as well. Today's all-electric prototype cars require at least 230VAC service, and would benefit from even higher voltage to shorten charge times to under 4 hours. But in many parts of the U.S. the power grid is struggling to satisfy domestic and industrial demand. Here in the Northeast we are constantly challenged with brownouts and power blips. Adding a few million all-electric cars to this equation will cause many of these systems to fail catastrophically.

There are great strides being taken on developing electric motors with better characteristics for automotive use, higher efficiency, better long-term reliability, etc. But until the battery and grid issues are solved, I think we're a ways from being able to take advantage of the technology.

Just my $.02

HJM

FricFrac · 07-23-2009, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mergnthwirker

I hate hybrids and hope to avoid them as long as possible. They only represent a stop-gap solution in my book, but one that can be sold to the public since they don't require major changes in behavior to use them.

I work for several automakers as a supplier, and I do not see any of them "dragging their feet" on all-electric design. The limitations of current battery tech are very real. Did you happen to see the Business Week article on problems with li-on battery packs catching fire? It only takes a single bad cell to start a chain reaction and the best batteries today use hundreds of them.

Power grid issues are pretty significant as well. Today's all-electric prototype cars require at least 230VAC service, and would benefit from even higher voltage to shorten charge times to under 4 hours. But in many parts of the U.S. the power grid is struggling to satisfy domestic and industrial demand. Here in the Northeast we are constantly challenged with brownouts and power blips. Adding a few million all-electric cars to this equation will cause many of these systems to fail catastrophically.

There are great strides being taken on developing electric motors with better characteristics for automotive use, higher efficiency, better long-term reliability, etc. But until the battery and grid issues are solved, I think we're a ways from being able to take advantage of the technology.

Just my $.02

HJM

The Business Weekly article must be caught in the '80's because battery technology for vehicles isn't LiIon batteries from your laptop battery. Those batteries are capable of 1C output (eg a 1 amp hour battery can source one amp). Even LiMn which are have been available to consumers for the last two or three years are capable of 20C constant discharge and they can be pierced, crushed, etc without risk of fire. I've even dead shorted one and while there was a lot of soot, there was no danger of fire or explosion. I built a custom battery pack about 1/4 the size of a car battery that would source 600A continuous at about 34V. Thats 20KW and that's old technology. There is now LiPo/LiMn technology as well as LiFe, etc, etc, etc. LiIon is ancient and the Tesla car that uses all those LiIon cells would be the same as you soldering 1400 watch batteries to make a car battery instead of your lead acid battery - its all but insane. I'd like to see the article but it sounds like they are out to lunch.... I'm not saying we've arrived at the perfect battery but we are way further ahead than what is/has been implemented.

I would be shocked (no pun intended) if you don't have 240VAC in your house. Regardless its not the voltage that will reduce charge times - any voltage can be converted to whatever the battery arrangement is. Higher voltage makes more sense because smaller wires are required to carry the same power. As for the power grid there is so much energy on earth that is untapped.... but that's another long debate. Lets harness some of the wind power, etc. Its a matter of capital investment, etc and until the demand is there the investments won't be made. If we told you 20 years ago our power demands would be what they are today everyone would say impossible yet here we are....

SpawnAeroJohn · 07-24-2009, 12:10 AM

IMO The FT-HS probobly wont ever come because nobody wants to drive space ships. Its 2009 not 2049.

07-23-2009, 08:09 AM	#17 (permalink)
LiquidZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,940 Drives: Mag. Black 2009 370Z Rep Power: 704	How will you mod a hybrid? Bigger batteries? __________________

07-23-2009, 08:10 AM	#18 (permalink)
Florida_GATOR Track Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Newport News, VA Posts: 705 Drives: 09 Nissan 370z Blk Rep Power: 16	There's no hate on either, im just saying trying to make somethings, not everything, green could damage its image. Imagine a badass sports car like the Z having a super quiet electric motor and reduced power to save on emissions...just seems like the two wouldn't work together. __________________ MK44 Creed- " Ive got a bullet here with your name on it, and im gonna keep firing till i find out which one it is " Most badass job ever.

07-23-2009, 08:35 AM	#19 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	I'm still not a fan of hybrid technology. It's an inefficient, wasteful design compared to an all-electric with a generator for extended range. The correct design for an all-electric is: 4 electric motors, one in each wheel as an integral part of the hub/wheel, a sizable battery system that's capable, and a very advanced ECU to control the 4 motors and the charging system. There's no gearing and no drivetrain losses in such a setup. You get instant torque from 0rpm at all wheels. Top speed is limited by max engine RPM, but is usually sufficient (120 mph or higher, at the least). You also don't need conventional brakes, as the ECU can reverse current flow to the engines for torque braking that's more powerful than conventional brakes anyways (although I'm sure they'll have to add some kind of mechanical e-brake for power failure scenarios), and you get regenerative braking with that to help battery range. Prototypes of these designs have already been built by multiple smaller companies. Since the ECU can control individual torque at all 4 wheels (both negative (braking) and positive (accel)), it's also possible in software to replace all the functions of "limited slip", "ABS", "traction control", etc with much more advanced and precise variants. They get acceleration times that blow the doors off of just about anything. The only issue is usually the allowable travelling range on a battery pack of reasonable weight. The solution? A tiny (we're talking lawn-mower-sized) 2-cycle gasoline or diesel engine in the trunk, which runs at a fixed RPM very efficiently powering a small generator to keep the batteries topped off. For extended trips, you just gas up the small tank on the generator, and it's still vastly more fuel/power-efficient for the long-haul than any conventional or hybrid. Why automakers continue dragging their feet with this "hybrid" drivetrain stuff, I don't know. Both the tree-huggers and the racers win with an all-electric design. The few that have been hand-built have been very expensive (the batteries and the motors being the huge expense obviously), but if a major auto manufacturer did this they would achieve much better economies of scale and drive the component prices down. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

07-23-2009, 08:39 AM	#20 (permalink)
Florida_GATOR Track Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Newport News, VA Posts: 705 Drives: 09 Nissan 370z Blk Rep Power: 16	__________________ MK44 Creed- " Ive got a bullet here with your name on it, and im gonna keep firing till i find out which one it is " Most badass job ever.

07-23-2009, 09:56 AM	#23 (permalink)
Florida_GATOR Track Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Newport News, VA Posts: 705 Drives: 09 Nissan 370z Blk Rep Power: 16	none, they would reduce power from the sports car to make it less harmfull to the earth. __________________ MK44 Creed- " Ive got a bullet here with your name on it, and im gonna keep firing till i find out which one it is " Most badass job ever.

07-23-2009, 09:32 AM	#21 (permalink)
370Zilla Base Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Gainesville, Fl Posts: 41 Drives: 370Z Rep Power: 15	Great post wstar! One reason they have not done this is the retooling costs. They are setup to make the types of vehicles they make. They don't want to spend the money, and have the downtime to retool the factories, and retrain the workers. Not to mention training technicians for repair. IMHO, they should have used the bailout money for this.

07-23-2009, 01:58 PM	#25 (permalink)
Alexus Base Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Montreal, QC Posts: 178 Drives: The Beast Rep Power: 16	The FT-HS is still under development and should debut some time next year as a 2011 model year. __________________ "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." -General George S. Patton Jr., 1885-1945

07-23-2009, 02:37 PM	#26 (permalink)
FricFrac A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 1,481 Drives: 370Z 300ZX 280ZX 240 Rep Power: 228	WStar the four wheel/motor system is going to be a huge leap in how the car handles as well. There is no need for a differential you can program LSD however you want it to react - its going to give unbelievable handling characteristics. As for our love or hate for hybrids they are going to be here regardless. Its the step consumers need to take going from gas to electric - its part of the psychology of changing technologies. Its the same reason your DVD player is backwards compatible with your CD player, etc. We don't like change even if its for the better so Hybrids are part of the transition. Full electric will be outstanding and with battery technologies changing as rapidly as they have been the future isn't far off. An electric motor will eat any gas motor - its just a matter of time before we can carry enough electrons in our cars to make this possible. __________________ '09 370Z - '93 300ZX Vert - '83 280ZX - '83 280ZXT -'81 280ZXT stroker - '72 240Z - Stillen CBE, HFC, G3, Grounding Kit, Sways // Swift Spring // H&R 15mm // 5% Tint // Clear Bra //

07-24-2009, 12:10 AM	#30 (permalink)
SpawnAeroJohn NOT A CURRENT VENDOR Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 609 Drives: you Rep Power: 16	IMO The FT-HS probobly wont ever come because nobody wants to drive space ships. Its 2009 not 2049.

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