I see a lot of upside in all of this. We are seeing evidence of it now. BMW giving us a 300 hp 3 series that can be easily boosted for nasty power. Next gen M3 will most likely use a turbo engine, M5 M6 most likely as well and lightened. If all this noise brings us back to lighter weight, that for me at least, is a huge win.

I love the current M3, but honestly I loved the E36 2700 pound M3 for. It was just a far more balanced enjoyable car. If we go back to lighter weight and engines that can handle boost, we get the best of both worlds.

Looking at F1.. They constantly try to slow these cars down, dropping displacement, all kinds of rules. The engineers are always a step ahead and can usually or in some places exceed prior years times by advancements in other things besides raw HP.

Audi has talked about dropping weight, just about everyone is. I am stoked. I have never been into Muscle Cars, I would like to see them around.

I find it pretty cool the Americans can produce something like a CTS V, which has the fastest 4 door production time around the 'ring amidst bankruptcy. I can only wonder how their current situation would differ if they would have been doing this kind of engineering all along

Check out this bit of fun on Ford's new "EcoBoost" engine program.

Jalopnik - EcoBoost Goes Drag: Ford Flex, Lincoln MKS Hit The Strip - Lincoln MKS EcoBoost

So yeah... M6 drivers who can't drive... don't mess with Grandpa in the 13-second Lincoln!

Yes hybrids are taking over the common car and I personally think that is a really really good thing. I don't see why we have to think the two are mutually exclusive though. 95% of drivers don't really care how many liters their engine has, they just need to get from point a to point b. The car is a tool so it is OK for them to drive hybrids; more gasoline left for the rest of us to burn ;). The other 5% include all of us who are reading this and frankly I don't think it is the end of the muscle/sports/super car at all. Mercedes Benz is still making 650hp 6+ Liter twin turbo monster daily drivers and people are still buying them. I see new supercars coming out of the woodwork these days. Even McLaren is coming out with replacements for their F1 and a new car to compete with Ferrari and Porsche. Zonda is still in business with 7.3L V12's. Le Mans still has 50+ cars.

This whole "green initiative" is going to become just part of everyday life as time goes by and all the rage becomes normality..

I dont know...Im not all that worried...

Off topic but...I get a major dose of nostalgia when I think of what "was" vs. what "is" regarding muscle cars. I had the great good fortune to be able to drive a new dark blue, white convertible topped, Hurst floor shift equipped, 389 CID GTO (the first muscle car, some may argue) for an extended period. It belonged to a buddy who was a midshipman at the Naval Academy who left it with my roommates and me in Annapolis while he was on cruise before graduation. It was 1965, I was 21, unencumbered and invincible, and god how I loved to take that car on the back roads in southern Maryland and let it all hang out. The experience hooked me forever. Recently I happened to see several GTOs of that vintage being sold for staggering amounts at a Mecum auction. It was no surprise that the buyers looked like guys from my generation. Ok, back on topic.

The government has too much authority over the car industry now, and there are too many people that have given a ton of money to politicians to make sure we all buy into this unproven global warming deal.

Sports cars will still exist, but they will be harder to get in the states. Someone mentioned the CTS-V. It is an amazing and beautiful car. It also carries a $7,000 gas guzzler tax. That isn't a lot of money for a Ferrari or a Lambo, but for a $70,000 car it can be. The United States will no longer be the primary target market for car makers. Countries like China and India are embracing capitalism while we are moving away from it. Those countries have far more population than we do and they sure aren't concerned about global warming. China is buying up oil reserves at a record pace.

I don't see it as 'over' but perhaps limited in terms of how many power V8s are out there to choose from.

:iagree: your right on.. the mid-level sports car "i think" will be the most endangered. 70k+ cars will still be around but the 70k car will now be 90k and so on up the line.

I know right! Nobody is that happy :shakes head:

Also may I add. I haven’t been keeping up with the news as far as all this gas / oil / global warming honkey. But If we are truly running low on oil. Hopefully the brainiacs of the world can create a hybrid gas that will be able to replace our regular gasoline with out having to change any major engine components in our current cars. Wishfully thinking in a perfect world. Because I dont see myself driving a hybrid in the near future.

We really aren't running out of oil. I'm sure you will start hearing about "peak oil" again once gas prices climb over 3 bucks a gallon, just like we did last summer. We also heard about "peak oil" in the 70's during the gas crunch. That was over 30 years ago. The fact is that right now the oil supply is very high, and demand is also low. OPEC nations are holding it back because they want to artificially drive the price up to $100 a barrel. Our government is more than happy to see them do this because the only way to get people to buy these crazy cars they are pushing is for gas to come close to 5 bucks a gallon.

My question to those that believe in all of this global warming BS is this: What good does it do to have a country of 300 million people crippling their economy to keep the planet green when China and India have a combined population of over 2 billion and they are polluting at a record pace? Unless we put a "Simpsonesque" dome over our country our efforts are really wasted. Even if man truly is destroying the planet, then we might as well "somoke em' if we got em'", because a majority of the planet's population is not going to do anything to stop it.

There are many scientist that believe the plant produces oil naturually on its own and we wont ever run out. Its the best reNEWable resurce we have.
dont wanta get off topic though.. if the muscle cars go away maybe we can build are own KIT cars with jap. engines.. that would be nice.

I enjoy your post RCZ, but I respectfully disagree here.

1) It is a bad thing because once most people start to drive hybrids the govt will try and regulate/tax the rest of us into them. It will get very expensive to drive sports cars/gas guzzlers. Most people will not drive hybrids until forced to do so by economics. Its true most people are not into sportscars, but people love SUVs, trucks, etc...

2) More gas for the rest of us to burn? There is no gas shortage. There is no oil shortage. There is an intelligence shortage in Washington where they won't allow us to drill our own oil for our own use.

3) Hybrids and their batteries are a far bigger environmental threat (specifically their manufacture and disposal) than our internal combustion engines and their exhaust. Electric cars with batteries will never be viable options IMO. Tesla will not be the answer.

4) Global warming is BS.

:driving:

Snatching the car battery biz from Asia
Ener1 aims to fuel the car of the future and bring jobs to the Midwest. But the jury is still out on whether or not it can compete against its larger, more established rivals.


INDIANAPOLIS (CNNMoney.com) -- Thousands of jobs are riding on Ener1's efforts to build the best car battery in the world.

The start-up firm is the only U.S. company able to mass produce batteries on American soil for an automobile industry poised to make a monumental shift from gasoline to electric power.

Many say whoever controls the battery industry will control the auto industry and the thousands of jobs that go with it.

Ener1's newly opened production facility near Indianapolis could employ 3,000 workers. Like other renewable energy companies popping up in the Midwest, people are hoping Ener1 can replace some of the fast-disappearing auto and other manufacturing jobs.

Its lithium-ion battery technology is praised for being one of the best available. But Ener1 must compete for big contracts against larger, mostly Asian firms with much more experience in this field.

"Things will be difficult," said Brian Sponheimer, an analyst at Gabelli & Co., the research arm of GAMCO Investors. "There's a lot of optimism about their chemistry, but they haven't been tapped for a major program yet."

The race to develop a suitable electric car battery is exciting and Ener1 is certainly fighting hard to win.

Its employees have a desire to usher in a game-changing technology for not only the auto industry but the entire energy sector.

"This should be the dream of all battery engineers, to replace oil," said Naoki Ota, the firm's chief science officer.

The company's spotless Indianapolis production facility is buzzing with activity. Workers in white suits scurry about, trying to hide proprietary technology from our camera.

The company has applied for a $480 million government loan to expand its facility and hopefully allow it to land a big contract. If that happens, Ener1 says it will go on a hiring spree.

"We're talking about a serious growth in people," Ulrik Grape, head of the company's car battery division.

The company could then start making batteries on a large scale. Still, its lack of experience in manufacturing remains a problem.

Many of its competitors, including Japan's Panasonic and NEC, South Korea's LG, and a joint venture between U.S.-based Johnson Controls (JCI, Fortune 500) and the French company Saft, have been making batteries in high volumes for decades.

If Ford or General Motors are going to buy batteries for an electric car, they need confidence the company they're buying from can deliver.

"They need to illustrate their competitiveness," said Sponheimer. "They need to find someone that trusts them."

The company is working on it. They've been supplying the Norwegian firm Think Automotive with batteries for over a year, and recently announced a preliminary deal with upmarket California carmaker Fisker.

These are good starts, analysts say, but the company still needs to prove itself on a larger scale. The lack of experience may be one reason why GM decided to go with LG when choosing a battery supplier for its much-hyped Volt.

Manufacturing know-how aside, analysts are generally upbeat on the firm.

That Ener1 actually has a production facility in the United States gives it an immediate advantage, said Michael Lew, an analyst with Think Equity. Car batteries are heavy and expensive to ship, and it can take up to two years to build a new facility in the United States.

Lewis also noted that while Ener1 competitors may have experience making other types of batteries, the lithium ion field for cars is still a new game for everyone.

"They have as good a chance as anyone else," said Lew, but he also noted the company's ability to perfect large-scale manufacturing as its major challenge.

On the technology side, Ener1 is thought to have some of the best ideas going.

The chemicals it uses in coating the lithium strips that make up the battery are said to be top-notch. Unlike some of its competitors, the chemicals allow the company to produce different types of batteries for different types of vehicles. That's a competitive advantage, said Banc of America Securities-Merrill Lynch alternative energy analyst Steven Milunovich, who has a buy rating on the stock.

And the design of the battery itself, which allows several cells to be stacked on one another reducing the chance it will catch on fire, is also praised.

The company's technical prowess is how Charles Gassenheimer, the company's chief executive, responds to questions about whether it can compete in this global battery race.

"We are the first people to provide this breakthrough in terms of the flat, stacked design and work with revolutionary new chemistries," Gassenheimer recently told Fortune, CNNMoney's sister publication. "We may have as much as a two year advantage over our competition."

Another good sign for the firm: After doing much research into the company's business plan, the government is still considering giving it the $480 million loan.

"If they get the money, the government thinks it has a fighting chance," said Milunovich.

Ener1 may be the only U.S. company making batteries in America now, but they probably won't be for long. The privately held A123 Systems, which already makes batteries in Asia, may have a plant stateside in the next few years.

And smaller firms like Maxwell (MXWL), Valence (VLNC) or the scores of other entrepreneurs aspiring to make a cheap, light, fast-charging, long-lasting car batteries will likely enter the fray with Ener1.

It remains to be seen though, if any of them can stand up to the competition from Asian giants.


http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/15/news...ion=2009061506

:iagree: Not in America anyway.

Regardless of fuel consumption, the Z was generally considered "a japanese muscle car" between the likes of say a RX-8 and S2000 more in terms of power and driving characteristics.