There are many scientist that believe the plant produces oil naturually on its own and we wont ever run out. Its the best reNEWable resurce we have.
dont wanta get off topic though.. if the muscle cars go away maybe we can build are own KIT cars with jap. engines.. that would be nice.

I enjoy your post RCZ, but I respectfully disagree here.

1) It is a bad thing because once most people start to drive hybrids the govt will try and regulate/tax the rest of us into them. It will get very expensive to drive sports cars/gas guzzlers. Most people will not drive hybrids until forced to do so by economics. Its true most people are not into sportscars, but people love SUVs, trucks, etc...

2) More gas for the rest of us to burn? There is no gas shortage. There is no oil shortage. There is an intelligence shortage in Washington where they won't allow us to drill our own oil for our own use.

3) Hybrids and their batteries are a far bigger environmental threat (specifically their manufacture and disposal) than our internal combustion engines and their exhaust. Electric cars with batteries will never be viable options IMO. Tesla will not be the answer.

4) Global warming is BS.

:driving:

Snatching the car battery biz from Asia
Ener1 aims to fuel the car of the future and bring jobs to the Midwest. But the jury is still out on whether or not it can compete against its larger, more established rivals.


INDIANAPOLIS (CNNMoney.com) -- Thousands of jobs are riding on Ener1's efforts to build the best car battery in the world.

The start-up firm is the only U.S. company able to mass produce batteries on American soil for an automobile industry poised to make a monumental shift from gasoline to electric power.

Many say whoever controls the battery industry will control the auto industry and the thousands of jobs that go with it.

Ener1's newly opened production facility near Indianapolis could employ 3,000 workers. Like other renewable energy companies popping up in the Midwest, people are hoping Ener1 can replace some of the fast-disappearing auto and other manufacturing jobs.

Its lithium-ion battery technology is praised for being one of the best available. But Ener1 must compete for big contracts against larger, mostly Asian firms with much more experience in this field.

"Things will be difficult," said Brian Sponheimer, an analyst at Gabelli & Co., the research arm of GAMCO Investors. "There's a lot of optimism about their chemistry, but they haven't been tapped for a major program yet."

The race to develop a suitable electric car battery is exciting and Ener1 is certainly fighting hard to win.

Its employees have a desire to usher in a game-changing technology for not only the auto industry but the entire energy sector.

"This should be the dream of all battery engineers, to replace oil," said Naoki Ota, the firm's chief science officer.

The company's spotless Indianapolis production facility is buzzing with activity. Workers in white suits scurry about, trying to hide proprietary technology from our camera.

The company has applied for a $480 million government loan to expand its facility and hopefully allow it to land a big contract. If that happens, Ener1 says it will go on a hiring spree.

"We're talking about a serious growth in people," Ulrik Grape, head of the company's car battery division.

The company could then start making batteries on a large scale. Still, its lack of experience in manufacturing remains a problem.

Many of its competitors, including Japan's Panasonic and NEC, South Korea's LG, and a joint venture between U.S.-based Johnson Controls (JCI, Fortune 500) and the French company Saft, have been making batteries in high volumes for decades.

If Ford or General Motors are going to buy batteries for an electric car, they need confidence the company they're buying from can deliver.

"They need to illustrate their competitiveness," said Sponheimer. "They need to find someone that trusts them."

The company is working on it. They've been supplying the Norwegian firm Think Automotive with batteries for over a year, and recently announced a preliminary deal with upmarket California carmaker Fisker.

These are good starts, analysts say, but the company still needs to prove itself on a larger scale. The lack of experience may be one reason why GM decided to go with LG when choosing a battery supplier for its much-hyped Volt.

Manufacturing know-how aside, analysts are generally upbeat on the firm.

That Ener1 actually has a production facility in the United States gives it an immediate advantage, said Michael Lew, an analyst with Think Equity. Car batteries are heavy and expensive to ship, and it can take up to two years to build a new facility in the United States.

Lewis also noted that while Ener1 competitors may have experience making other types of batteries, the lithium ion field for cars is still a new game for everyone.

"They have as good a chance as anyone else," said Lew, but he also noted the company's ability to perfect large-scale manufacturing as its major challenge.

On the technology side, Ener1 is thought to have some of the best ideas going.

The chemicals it uses in coating the lithium strips that make up the battery are said to be top-notch. Unlike some of its competitors, the chemicals allow the company to produce different types of batteries for different types of vehicles. That's a competitive advantage, said Banc of America Securities-Merrill Lynch alternative energy analyst Steven Milunovich, who has a buy rating on the stock.

And the design of the battery itself, which allows several cells to be stacked on one another reducing the chance it will catch on fire, is also praised.

The company's technical prowess is how Charles Gassenheimer, the company's chief executive, responds to questions about whether it can compete in this global battery race.

"We are the first people to provide this breakthrough in terms of the flat, stacked design and work with revolutionary new chemistries," Gassenheimer recently told Fortune, CNNMoney's sister publication. "We may have as much as a two year advantage over our competition."

Another good sign for the firm: After doing much research into the company's business plan, the government is still considering giving it the $480 million loan.

"If they get the money, the government thinks it has a fighting chance," said Milunovich.

Ener1 may be the only U.S. company making batteries in America now, but they probably won't be for long. The privately held A123 Systems, which already makes batteries in Asia, may have a plant stateside in the next few years.

And smaller firms like Maxwell (MXWL), Valence (VLNC) or the scores of other entrepreneurs aspiring to make a cheap, light, fast-charging, long-lasting car batteries will likely enter the fray with Ener1.

It remains to be seen though, if any of them can stand up to the competition from Asian giants.


http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/15/news...ion=2009061506

:iagree: Not in America anyway.

Regardless of fuel consumption, the Z was generally considered "a japanese muscle car" between the likes of say a RX-8 and S2000 more in terms of power and driving characteristics.

No offense to you or anyone else, but in regards to #4, anyone who believes this is simply uneducated or easily influenced by the oil companies million dollar marketing efforts to say it is BS.

Ummm No
 

The RX-8 isnt even drift worthy in Japan. The 7 on the other hand is a demon. But, muscle,in Japan........thats a tough call. Depends on what shop you are getting your work done, and what your goal is. Concerning speed on the track Im not sure many (if any) can beat a well tuned R-32/33/34. 1/4 mile is a different ballgame because of the weight difference. A 700hp Supra will give a 600hp R-34 fits in the 1/4, but get its azz handed to it by a 450hp S-14. Change the course to high speed runs........now the field is wide open. JUN auto has a Z33 that will do over 200mph all day. Top Secret has a R-34/JZA-80 Supra/Z-32 that will all go over 200mph. With the exception of Power House Amuse, HKS in Kansai, and Midori Sebi Center, the majority of the shops dont care what the car is or if its a Toyota or Nissan, they build up an RB-26 and drop into whatever as the basis for the power plant. But Z as the muscle of Japan...........no sir, that title is reserved for the GT-R. Im not saying that because I have had 3 of them either. I lived there from 1991-2006. It is what it is. Dont get me wrong, the Z is loved and cherished, but not titled as the muscle.

As for the posts about Ford this Chevy that.........:roflpuke2:Really? Im sorry, I didnt catch that....was that another RE-Invention commercial on TV. Oh, O.K. that wasnt for Nissan, my bad.

I have never seen one piece of marketing by any oil or energy company claiming that global warming is BS. I have read and listened to many scientists that simply do not believe that global warming exists, and if it does then it is more than likely due to natural cyclical changes in the planet and not carbon emissions. I have also heard interviews with scientists claiming that they are strong armed into perpetuating this "global warming" phenomenom in order to receive any government funding for other research projects. The earth has already survived one ice age and that was millions of years before any soccer mom decided to drive an SUV. Man didn't cause that one. Maybe dinosaurs were really gassy.

I don't want to turn this into a political debate, but please don't try to say that I am uneducated or influenced by marketing that just doesn't exist. If anything oil companies will make more from this global warming scare. Gas prices need to skyrocket for the whole thing to work, and not everything can be battery operated, and even if it was we would need some kind of carbon fuel to charge the batteries. If anything the millions in marketing is being spent by those that are propogating global warming, and perhaps it is you who is so easily influenced.

imo we simply take this global warming thing too far. It's there of course it is, because if it wasn't how are we not still in that ice age i've heard of? We might be speeding it up a bit, but the world is going to heat and cool as time goes. If you don't believe me then explain how there has been multiple ice ages and periods in between them when the earth was much WARMER.

The only propaganda involved in the global warming debate is from the side that push it. The scientific community get grant money from it, the liberals get that warm and fuzzy feeling that they crave so much, and dirty politicians get money from it by selling carbon credits ala Al Gore. Is the world heating up Yes, is it caused by green house gasses partially, does the amount of green house gasses produced by people even remotely compare to the natural green house gasses created by nature NO! The oh so green rain forrest, and ocean, and animals, ect create more green houses gasses than we as Humans even think about creating.

Not only is global "warming" not a foregone conclusion, but the language has changed. It is now called "climate change". Why? Because the last three years have been among the COLDEST since we've been keeping records. Even the guy seemingly making the most money off of "climate change" (Al Gore) doesn't call it "Global Warming" anymore. Given the recent statistical analysis, it's just not credible.

Global COOLING -- which IS real -- is causing some real problems. Agricultural productivity in both hemispheres has suffered the last two years because of low temperatures. (The Dakotas are still getting SNOW this year -- and it's mid-June!)

The leading theory is that global cooling is due to low sunspot activity. There seems to be a direct, long-term correlation between sunspot cycles and global temperature cycles. When sunspot activity picks up again (as it always has), global temperatures will pick up again (as they always have).

I would say that it is you who do not understand the scientific method. Global warming is a scientific theory, not a proven, scientific fact. It is certainly a theory that has been adopted by a majority of scientists and perhaps even by a majority of the public, but popularity has nothing to do with scientific truth.

We should be skeptical of anyone who claims that they "know" human activity is causing global warming. Many may suspect it, but no one knows it.

Even if you are one of those who believes that humans are causing global warming, the question then becomes what, if anything, is to be done about it. To bring this back to the Z, what we do will directly affect the availability and the affordability of sports cars such as the Z (and perhaps even the performance). With some of the current proposals that threaten to raise the price of oil, I could certainly see the Z becoming less of an everyman's sports car and, more like the Porsche, a car out of reach to the majority of the car-buying public.

I, for one, think that would be a crying shame.

I agree Global Warming is a theory not a fact...

Most people when they feel their home town is having a cool summer, etc. think global warming is a myth but 2009 temparatures recorded as of March were the 8th HIGHEST ever recorded. However when talking about global warming earth temperatures are measured in 30 year averages, not single year.

Earth's temperature 8th-warmest on record so far in 2009 - USATODAY.com

As far as the scientist who claim it doesn't exist, have you have looked to see who is paying the? Yes, it is the oil companies! Oil companies want us to purchase as much oil as possible to increase there margins. All the 'marketing efforts' since many have not seen them include paying these scientists and all the commericials saying how they are 'green' and doing research for renewable energy.

Oil Companies and Greenwashing - exxon bp shell chevron oil


Lastly, sorry all for turning this into a political thread. I do think sports cars will always be around a long as people keep buying them. They may have different technologies than today, but as consumers we can still dictate what the automotive industry creates.

Muscle Car ----> Global Warming


what happen in here

That is where you're wrong. It is now the government that will dictate what the automotive industry creates, not the consumer. In this country the government even owns a good portion of the auto industry. People may still want sports cars, but it won't be enough of them for a car company to invest the R&D to power the things in a way that is compliant with government standards and the taxes and fines will put them out of reach of the average person. Yes, you will still be able to buy Ferraris and Porsches and Lambos, but you can plan on tacking on an extra 20-50K to the price to pay off the government for the priviledge. That may not be a big deal for the people that buy those cars. It would be a huge deal for those of us that buy cars like the Z.

yeah, OK. since I am neither easily influenced by oil companies nor uneducated I am just going to let this one slide. its called an opinion. people besides you can have them. deal with it.

IMO Global warming is BS. Its a myth. Unfortunately Al Gore is real.

Sorry LSU, never intented personally attack you or anyone else. When I said uneducated I meant specifically about this issue, not that you are an idiot. I do believe there is overwhelming support in favor that global warming exists but I'll stop trying to convince you. Whether or not it is real, I do think that it is too late to do anything to stop it. All we can do as a nation/planet is to slow it down but the effects will happen regardless. Go to places like the Aspen ski resort and ask them how global warming as affected them.

Anyway, I do agreee with you that the government oversight is getting very out of hand we need to be very careful if we wish to continue enjoying our freedoms.

no worries benfiji. its a hot button issue for sure. I told myself not to do it when I originally posted, but I didn't listen. :D

have a great day.

my idea is crazy and radical......... Global warming is taking effect already and we are at a point of no return...we would all have to sop polluting for a 100 years in order to save the planet.....that's not going to happen....let other ppl buy Prius's and i'll get a G and/or a Z and enjoy whats left.

Thanks for hijacking my thread. What a bunch of jerks!!!

No problem! We always like to turn boring threads into interesting ones.

F-Off **** breath! Punks like you that give forums bad names.:mad:

I don't care. Really, I don't. I want gas to be cheap. I want 300+ horses under my hood. I want to hear the roar of a gasoline-powered engine, not the hum of a glorified golf cart.

And, I want that Z I'm gonna buy to stay in the low 30K range. I don't want it to be a 40/50K sports car. This is what's gonna happen if we start instituting carbon taxes.

I say "no".

I guess you didn't get the sarcasm. That's okay. Sarcasm detectors are notoriously unreliable. Still, might want to give yours a check-up. :ugh2:

Anyone taking bets on how long before this thread gets locked? :icon17:

Soon......
http://images26.fotki.com/v890/photo...freeway-vi.gif

I've got a major case of second hand embarrassment.

Agreed. Esp about being uneducated about such things. I personally believe that there is far too little data in our hundredish years of data to make assumptions about the last 6,000 or 6 trillion billion years (another debate) has any correlation between global warming and natural cycles..... regardless most believe that there is global warming which I personally believe is a good thing because it makes the mindless a little more mindful of the environment. ...and like you said not to make it a political debat but to infer someone is uneducated.... that's just wrong...

Regardless - long live the Z!

Times change, it's as cliche as that. But the new things that arise usually have more pluses than minuses.

Supposedly a hybrid 370 is coming out soon. I would've taken that instead of my "traditional" 370 had they both been available.

you would?? the batteries and motors would push it to the 4000lb mark , not to mention the weight balance.. what fun would that be? it would just be a sexy looking car with no performance.. if you want a 2 seater hybrid pick up a used insight... probably have better MPG and performace.:roflpuke2:

Al Gore invented the internet. I'd really consider listening to what he has to say.

I've been watching the development of the Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems used in Formula 1 racing this year. Next year the system will be mandated for all teams. The system adds weight (battery, electronics, motors) but provides short bursts of 80HP at the driver's control. Kinda like hitting the "nitrous" button!

I'd like to see more motor racing organizations mandating the use of hybrid technology.

In fact, I'd love to see a series such as Indy racing adopt ruling so there are no restrictions at all on the technology, but an absolute cap on the amount of fuel that can be used. OK folks, here's the Indy 500. Every competitor is limited to 50 gallons of fuel. Good luck! Gentleman (and ladies), start your engines!

I hope muscle cars don't fade away.
Who else will we depend on to bother us on the highways?

Interesting what the designer of the 370Z says about the Z and how its powered ;)

"His love of the Z’s iconic design comes through in his voice. He owns a 1977 280Z “and every time I drive it, people young or old say, hey, I love your car. It has the cult following, and it’s a very special car in its way. With the gas crunch, all the manufacturers are pushing for zero emissions, electric power, different ways of powering a vehicle. Maybe it’ll be powered in a different way, but the Z has such a huge following, it’ll always be around and always have a receptive audience. It’s a balance of performance, design and value, and you can’t go wrong with that"

:icon18:

The one thing I learned in the 55 years I have lived...in regards to anything that is being poo-pooed by the majority population, the media or the government....if you lie down to those pundits then the tide will certainly swing in that direction and what you once enjoyed will end for you. However if people would just stop being so damn apathetic and fight back then there is a good chance the era won't come to an end.

The problem is that the minority who enjoy the "era" things think they if they make their own individual voice heard and cry out loudly against the majority then they will be dooming themselves to being targeted for redicule and even attack by the majority.

Well so what???!! It has been this way since the beginning of time. But history has proven the loudest and strongest are not necessilary the majority. So quit putting your head between your legs and start getting involved in those efforts that exist to counter the pundits. And if no efforts exist then start one of your own grassroots style.

Lets face it..do you actualy think that this country came about as a result of our forefathers outnumbering the Brits?

OK, excuse me for getting back tot topic: "Era of the Muscle Car is over?". I don't think it is. The only difference will be: forced induction over "cubic inches". We already see it with the 370Z, 330hp from a high revving 3.7L compared to Fords 210 HP from a 4.0L?. Next step will be forced induction... Look at what is going on in Europe. VW for example, a 1.4 with turbo replaces a 1.8 N/A. (both 125 hp). Next generation BMW M3 will be turbocharged... Or look at Ford Eco boost, twin turbo V6 instead of a V8. So the muscle car will live on, just with less capacity :-)

about 300lbs. more and supposedly 100hp more--> 432hp at ~3600 lbs.
Nissan to Launch Hybrid 370Z sports car in 2011! > 370z.com > 370z.com - Magazine

Wow - if this does go to production and it turns out the numbers Nissan is claiming this will be a Historical marker in automotove history. It will just like when Nissan brought Japanese sports cars (and really the whole Japanese auto market) to the lime light in North America (and the rest of the world) with the 1970 240Z...

:iagree:

Didn't read through all the posts in this thread so forgive me if I say anything that's already been said.

If the end of the muscle car era means no more dated, overweight, poorly engineered and designed RWD "pony" cars then that is fine by me. In my eyes the current muscle car crop defines what's wrong with the domestic auto industry: wrong product at the wrong time dated in the past. Take the new Camaro for instance...it's HUGE compared to the Z and weighs what I imagine to be several hundred more pounds. At the least the Z appears to have been designed with the foresight of changing environmental conditions that produce concerns for what and how we drive, and to boot changing consumer tastes influenced by this awareness. Granted the Z does not have miserly fuel economy you'll fare better than in a Camaro SS, albeit not by much. Even something as superfical as physical presence is enough to convince the average consumer in a time where fuel economy is of great concern whether or not to buy one car over the other, because lets face it "downsizing" is the new trend in the automotive market.

Muscle cars don't have to die they just have to change. New sources and ways of developing and harnessing power must be realized and utilized if these cars are not only to survive but become more efficent, which is the guiding principle for the entire auto industy moving forward. This means smaller engines, lighter build materials and other innovative technologies geared towards increasing efficency. And while the electric car is a great idea it's got a long ways before it becomes truly viable. There are still issues of cost and even efficency before the electic car can truly become some sort of panacea for the global auto industry. Fear not the combustion engine is here to stay.