Originally Posted by Red__Zed (Post 1465735)

bad balance is actually great in snow. tons of weight over the front axle means you can turn and stop very easily in poor traction conditions.

Originally Posted by Jeffblue (Post 1465746)

the best way to avoid accidents on the street is defensive driving. Defensive driving has much more of an impact then how well you can throw your car around a corner at a road course. Every time i approach an intersection, i assume some a-hole is going to make a left turn in front of me because they aren't paying attention.

horsepower doesn't matter in snow or inclement weather. Does horsepower matter when you stop? no. A high HP car will only handle worse in the snow/rain than a lower hp car if the driver is doing something they shouldn't be doing anyway, which is getting on the throttle hard during the turn.

most snow accidents aren't the result of accelerating and lost traction. They are when someone tries to stop and the car keeps sliding. or when they try to turn and the car keeps going straight.

Z's just seem like they are more accident prone because they are less expensive than corvettes and more accessible to people will poorer judgement.

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465750)

i disagree. it also means the rear of the car is prone to losing traction, especially under braking. i used to have a chrysler intrepid, and all the drivetrain (engine, gearbox, diff) was IN FRONT of the front wheels. brake a bit too hard and the back end would get light on its wheels. Occasionally that led to a bit of minor fishtailing under braking. Nothing the ABS didn't fix but it still did happen.

Originally Posted by Jeffblue (Post 1465746)

the best way to avoid accidents on the street is defensive driving. Defensive driving has much more of an impact then how well you can throw your car around a corner at a road course. Every time i approach an intersection, i assume some a-hole is going to make a left turn in front of me because they aren't paying attention.

horsepower doesn't matter in snow or inclement weather. Does horsepower matter when you stop? no. A high HP car will only handle worse in the snow/rain than a lower hp car if the driver is doing something they shouldn't be doing anyway, which is getting on the throttle hard during the turn.

most snow accidents aren't the result of accelerating and lost traction. They are when someone tries to stop and the car keeps sliding. or when they try to turn and the car keeps going straight.

Z's just seem like they are more accident prone because they are less expensive than corvettes and more accessible to people will poorer judgement.

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465763)

indeed, an a-hole making a left turn is what destroyed my car a month ago. I agree with almost all you're saying. Except, that higher hp cars are still more difficult to handle than lower hp cars. Even at partial throttle, a car with a bigger engine will still be delivering more torque to the wheels than a car with a smaller engine assuming the same throttle position. More torque delivered to the wheels increases the chances of power oversteer. Especially with a car like a corvette or a viper that produces a lot of torque even at very low rpm.

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465750)

i disagree. it also means the rear of the car is prone to losing traction, especially under braking. i used to have a chrysler intrepid, and all the drivetrain (engine, gearbox, diff) was IN FRONT of the front wheels. brake a bit too hard and the back end would get light on its wheels. Occasionally that led to a bit of minor fishtailing under braking. Nothing the ABS didn't fix but it still did happen.

Originally Posted by Red__Zed (Post 1465766)

you can easily recovery by braking less. try making that same move in a mid-engine car, and the rear end won't step back in line...hell, even in a properly balanced front midship design, you might have some trouble getting the rear end back in place

Originally Posted by toxik (Post 1465758)

I'm not going to be the one to say it, but lets face it, a lot of 370z's are being totaled as insurance fraud simply because the owners realize they rather own a 5.0

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang (Post 1465754)

You were going too fast for the conditions. I can get the back end to step out in my car on snow tires under braking if I am going too fast... :rolleyes:

More rear weight makes the rear of the car want to overtake the front when you attempt to stop quickly... especially if turning. If you have more weight on the front, the car tends to track much straighter... Simple physics.

There's a reason why the older 911s were notorious for ridiculous amounts of oversteer... all that weight over the rear axle.

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465763)

indeed, an a-hole making a left turn is what destroyed my car a month ago. I agree with almost all you're saying. Except, that higher hp cars are still more difficult to handle than lower hp cars. Even at partial throttle, a car with a bigger engine will still be delivering more torque to the wheels than a car with a smaller engine assuming the same throttle position. More torque delivered to the wheels increases the chances of power oversteer. Especially with a car like a corvette or a viper that produces a lot of torque even at very low rpm.

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang (Post 1465765)

More difficult to handle for an inexperienced driver, perhaps...

But to anyone that knows wtf they are doing there is no difference.

Originally Posted by toxik (Post 1465758)

I'm not going to be the one to say it, but lets face it, a lot of 370z's are being totaled as insurance fraud simply because the owners realize they rather own a 5.0

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465771)

actually i'm talking about braking in a straight line. a lighter rear end is more prone to fishtailing under hard braking. yes in a corner the opposite is true, and the car will tend to understeer. but in a straight line, with the car diving under hard braking, with all the drivetrain weight on the front wheels, the rear wheels are very prone to losing grip. that's why many older pickup trucks used to come with ABS only on the rear axle.

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465779)

so if you had a viper srt 10 to drive year round, you'd just put snow tires and continue as usual? :ugh2:

never driven a mid engine car, but i drove a few front midship cars and actually i felt they were very stable under braking. And braking less is not always an option on the street. What if a guy cuts you off? Or a bus unexpectedly pulls out of the bus bay? Or a pedestrian decides to jaywalk across the street right in front of you?

Originally Posted by cossie1600 (Post 1465788)

The car has ABS/EBD. How the f do you lose your backend braking in a straight line unless you are in the snow or your car is busted. I mean you might hit ice mode and lose all your braking, but very seldom does the car lose the backend and swing it around.

Originally Posted by Jeffblue (Post 1465776)

what you are saying makes sense, but we are human and we can adapt. If you have to push your gas pedal down 3/4 of the way in a corolla to get it to move, you don't get in a viper and do the same thing. obviously if you give the same amount of gas in a higher hp/larger displacement car it will produce more power at a lower rpm. But as i said, we can adapt.

i just recently reflashed my 335, and now its probably got about 100 more lbft of torque at the wheels at 2500 rpm. So if i press the gas the same way i used to to gingerly get off the line, it's going to put down a lot more power. so i just give it less throttle. i have no problems driving it just as slow as i used to even with the added power. it really should be no problem to drive a fast car slowly, just don't put your foot down as much. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang (Post 1465792)

Shhhh this is an anti-physics discussion based on theory and no real-world experience.

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang (Post 1465790)

If I had an SRT-10 Viper I'd obviously have some other cars... but yes, if you said, "Steve... the ONLY car you can drive this winter is an SRT-10" I would slap Blizzaks on it and be fine. Obviously I wouldn't be able to drive in deep snow, but on freshly plowed, snow-packed roads or very light accumulations I would be 100% fine. :tup:

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465779)

so if you had a viper srt 10 to drive year round, you'd just put snow tires and continue as usual? :ugh2: never driven a mid engine car, but i drove a few front midship cars and actually i felt they were very stable under braking. And braking less is not always an option on the street. What if a guy cuts you off? Or a bus unexpectedly pulls out of the bus bay? Or a pedestrian decides to jaywalk across the street right in front of you?

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465771)

actually i'm talking about braking in a straight line. a lighter rear end is more prone to fishtailing under hard braking. yes in a corner the opposite is true, and the car will tend to understeer. but in a straight line, with the car diving under hard braking, with all the drivetrain weight on the front wheels, the rear wheels are very prone to losing grip. that's why many older pickup trucks used to come with ABS only on the rear axle.

Originally Posted by FL 4Motion (Post 1465800)

I love your self confidence, it's very endearing.

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465779)

so if you had a viper srt 10 to drive year round, you'd just put snow tires and continue as usual? :ugh2: never driven a mid engine car, but i drove a few front midship cars and actually i felt they were very stable under braking. And braking less is not always an option on the street. What if a guy cuts you off? Or a bus unexpectedly pulls out of the bus bay? Or a pedestrian decides to jaywalk across the street right in front of you?

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465794)

true, except you're wrong in one thing. Even if you go 100% full throttle in a corolla, you're still delivering less power and torque to the wheel than the viper engine does to its wheels even at idle at 0% throttle :roflpuke2:

Originally Posted by FL 4Motion (Post 1465800)

I love your self confidence, it's very endearing.

Originally Posted by cossie1600 (Post 1465788)

The car has ABS/EBD. How the f do you lose your backend braking in a straight line unless you are in the snow or your car is busted. I mean you might hit ice mode and lose all your braking, but very seldom does the car lose the backend and swing it around.

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465810)

it was snowy. And i didn't lose the back end or anything. The rear just wiggled a bit. You're still assuming you will be at 100% and paying full attention. We're talking about street driving here. Imagine finishing a 12 h shift. You're tired, hungry, and have a headache. And it starts raining or snowing. Rank the following cars according to which one you'll feel safer driving: 1) Viper srt 10, 2) 370z, 3) toyota corolla.

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465810)

it was snowy. And i didn't lose the back end or anything. The rear just wiggled a bit.

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465810)

it was snowy. And i didn't lose the back end or anything. The rear just wiggled a bit. You're still assuming you will be at 100% and paying full attention. We're talking about street driving here. Imagine finishing a 12 h shift. You're tired, hungry, and have a headache. And it starts raining or snowing. Rank the following cars according to which one you'll feel safer driving: 1) Viper srt 10, 2) 370z, 3) toyota corolla.

Originally Posted by Red__Zed (Post 1465803)

simply put, if you don't have the ability to brake with tons of weight on the front axles, you don't have it at all. Besides, if it's a pedestrian you are avoiding, let the rear end come out-- who cares?

I'm curious what front mid-ship cars you've driven since you've never driven another RWD car.




they'll lose grip but they really aren't if there's not much weight out back. besides, lighten up on the pedal if that happens...

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465823)

The point was that "tons of weight over the front axle" is not necessarily a good thing to have on a car.

Originally Posted by Jeffblue (Post 1465808)

no matter how well a car handles, it can't make up for poor judgement. If you are speeding down a school zone in a lotus or an escalade, its stupid. In the lotus you can stop more quickly and change direction more easily, but its still stupid


really? i didn't realize cars delivered power to the wheels when the car is in neutral.

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465823)

Which FM car I drove? a couple of infiniti awd g coupes. none was mine but i drove them a few times. and the point wasn't my braking ability. I am perfectly capable of braking, though thanks for your advice :ugh2: The point was that "tons of weight over the front axle" is not necessarily a good thing to have on a car.

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465826)

you do realize that you don't have to go "speeding down a school zone" in order for someone to cut you off and force hard braking, right?

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang (Post 1465813)

Earlier you were implying that all that weight up front made the back step out under hard braking in the snow... now you are saying it just wiggled.

Originally Posted by b1adesofcha0s (Post 1465822)

You keep changing the situation and conditions to try and force him to not pick the Viper!

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang (Post 1465824)

Because the back end might wiggle.

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465835)

no, it just wiggled. it didn't step out as in spin out or anything. Just a bit of wiggling. Like I said, the ABS takes care of it. The point though is too much weight on the front wheels can make the back unstable if you brake too hard.

Originally Posted by Red__Zed (Post 1465840)

and not enough weight on the front end means you don't stop.

Originally Posted by Pharmacist (Post 1465810)

it was snowy. And i didn't lose the back end or anything. The rear just wiggled a bit. You're still assuming you will be at 100% and paying full attention. We're talking about street driving here. Imagine finishing a 12 h shift. You're tired, hungry, and have a headache. And it starts raining or snowing. Rank the following cars according to which one you'll feel safer driving: 1) Viper srt 10, 2) 370z, 3) toyota corolla.