Oil temps: 335 comparitive observation.
 

Hey guys,

ive been getting some seat time in my buddy's 2 month old 09 335i. Amazing car might i add. Anyways, i noticed a few interesting things about his oil temp gauge. His oil temp gauge has a center reading of 250. Even if you drive like a granny in 60 degree weather, the needle will sit on 250 degrees. The gauge tops out at 340. I didnt push it extremely hard....but did maybe 2-3 wot runs in 2-3 gear...and that shot the temps upto mmmm i'd say about 270. Whether it will climb higher upon more induced stress on the engine I have no idea. Is there a difference in the dynamics of 370 and 335 that makes it okay for the 335 to sit in 250 degree oil temp? Im assuming his 335 has an oil cooler installed for that's what i've been hearing from people on this board....but i was quite shocked to see that on his car. I cant see how it's good for the car to have its oil changed every 15k miles with those temps....Please advise. Thanks.

This is interesting news. One of the issues I've had with judging how much of a problem I'm having with my Z's temps is that I don't know what the spec range for oil temperature is supposed to be in the first place. A number of people, including my dealer have said that 220 to 240 is the sweet spot. 260 has been getting people's attention and the Z goes into a limp mode around 280. Other's have said that the properties of regular oil degrade above 260F and that the engine has components that are temperature sensitive above that temp as well. The validity of these claims I don't know myself.

Could one car be engineered to withstand higher temps than another...sure, but I don't know if that's the case. What kind of oil is BMW recommending in the 335? If it's not synthetic, that either debunks the "oil breaks down over 260F" theory or suggests your buddy's car is running too hot as well.

Again, interesting to hear that a BMW runs consistently as hot or hotter than the Z is.

IMO how can two totally diff. cars be running too hot as well? Maybe it is normal to be around 220 to 240. Now that I am paying more attention to my oil temp. I always stay arounf 220 even with bad traffic and when I drove it real hard the other night it went up to 280 which just about right because I was really really pushing the car like there is no tomorrow. but the car at 280 never went into limp mode. I was waiting for the limp mode when i saw 280 but never happened and after that the temp went down to 260 again.

well judging from the layout of his gauge, I'm sure his car isn't running hot. 250 is in the dead smacked middle of the gauge and seems like it's the sweetspot. His car from what ive heard is also equipped with an oil cooler from factory. I think 335s run synthetic but not completely sure. Hmmmm im assuming oil is oil and there is no way that two identical oils will behave differently in different engines. Kinda confusing.

I think the issue with the Z, not sure about the 3 series, is the Z can go into limp mode. Does the 3 series have this build in? Has it happened to anyone on a BMW forum? Maybe our car can survive higher temps, but they put in the limp mode so a precaution currently.

Yes 335 definitely has limp mode. All modern day cars do. If you remember when 335 had just came out, all the magazines bashed it because the oil would get too hot and the car would go into limp mode in 5 minutes of hard driving. BMW installed coolers from factory to remedy the problem.

Has the metallurgy improved today to the point where these engines are designed to run with longevity at the higher temps we are seeing? Are we applying old school oil temp knowledge to a modern engine that is built with components that withstand higher temps? I would assume 280 is dangerous, or Nissan would not have placed limp mode at this threshold. I would still worry about prolonged driving at 260 to 280 personally, and with the 90+ heat of summer coming, that worries me.

John

http://images50.fotki.com/v1514/phot...andlife-vi.jpg

Some info from the intraweb...

"TORQUE CUT CONTROL (AT HIGH ENGINE OIL TEMPERATURE)
The ECM receives engine oil temperature signals from engine oil temperature sensor.
To avoid VVEL performance degradation, the ECM performs the engine torque cut control at high engine oil temperatures.
If engine oil temperature is too high, engine oil viscosity will change. As a result, engine oil pressure is
decreased. This control affects the VVEL operating angle by operating the VVEL actuator sub assembly.
If this control is operated, engine performance will decrease, then maximum engine speed is reduced a bit (Various levels of Limp Mode depending on temp).
.
The VVEL is a fairly complex system, with a relatively high amount of reciprocating mass and multiple linkages. The lubrication demands are very high to ensure Nissan's life expectancy goals are met. The shearing loads and high pressures exerted on the oil dictate a proper viscosity be maintained in order to resist lubrication failure due to these loads. Because an oil's ability to resist shearing weakens as it gets hot and thins out; a phenomenon plotted as a function of viscosity and shear stability known as the Stribeck curve, it is essential that the oil maintain it's specified viscosity at the appropriate operating temperature. This is why Nissan has engineered a fail-safe which limits power until the oil cools back to its specified operating temperature, because at that temperature it should be at the proper viscosity to withstand the high loads of the VVEL system.

Great chart ModShack.

From BMW USA Site.




BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is recommended for scheduled engine oil changes.
BMW High Performance SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Oil* (BMW part number 07 51 0 017 866)



BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Approved Synthetic Oils for the US Market:

Castrol Syntec European Formula SAE 0W-30
Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40
Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30
Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30


Use only oils with an API rating of SM or higher.

The choice of the right SAE grade is based on the climatic conditions in the region in which you normally drive your BMW.



Looks to me like they are approving some of your standard synthetic oils. Nothing spectacular.

The 335i is just designed to run at these temps with typical operating temps of roughly 240F. The 335i will run close to 300F or slightly above before hitting limp mode.

BTW, newer 335s have an oil temp gauge with 250 as the center reading while older 335s had 210 as the center mark.

Mobil 0W-40 is excellent. And the synthetic castrol is a german formulation that is also very good, but can be difficult to source in the U.S.

How do they come up with the 'Engine Life' curve? That seems like an interpretation. Not sure that one can look at that and say "Ah crap, my car is usually 230F all summer so I've cut my engine life in half..."

Just a representation ffrom a Porsche site discussing 300,000 mile 911's..
Don't take it as gospel, but also don't expect your engine to last as long at 250+ degrees as it will at 190...

Interesting thread. My friend and I were driving around in his 09 335i Auto. We passed the Nissan dealer in Scottsdale and decided to test drive a new Z.

To our amazement the dealer handed us the keys and did not come with us. I drove the car much like my old 04, spirited to say the least. Oil temp shot up to 260.. I would back off each time and would drop off pretty quick. I was saddened to see it jump back so quickly, just with some full throttle runs.

In AZ, it is safe to say this is not a track issue. After the test drive my friend and I watched his gauge very closely. It was short of the middle, somewhere around 240, he also drove very aggressively.

Not to get off topic, but this was the first time I drove a new Z. I connected with it and fell in love, just like I did the first time I drove the 04 I bought.

I have always been hard on Nissan for the coarseness of the VQ, but 37HR felt considerably better than my old DE.

Anyway great car, but the temps were scary. I would be petrified to take it to a track day during the summer in AZ, in its stock form.

bit of a thread revival here..

the 335i is a (in early models twin) turbo car so oil temps would definitely be higher than an N/A engine because the engine oil is used to lubricate the turbo bearings so it's just another creator of oil heat.

The issue is, the Nissan ECU is extremely overprotective. As many folks have pointed out on this forum, modern cars will most likely run oil temps of 100*c/210f+ in just normal daily driving.

Our engine's throttle response suffers significantly at oil temps of 94*c/200f upwards - which in my opinion is ridiculously low for a sports car.

I'm still not convinced that the VVEL system contributes that much heat that it has to be protected. Probably more like the VVEL linkages and small components would likely become weaker at higher engine temps...

The CVTC system is often overlooked when it comes to oil heat. It relies on oil pressure to hydraulically adjust the cam angle and this generates a fair amount of heat.

The other issue worth mentioning is the onboard oil temp gauge - surely it doesnt update in real time. I notice the throttle lag lingers for a while even afger the gauge reports <94*c oil temp. Has anyone hooked up a separate oil temp gauge with its own temp probe and compared? I cant remember what Cipher was reporting but it did seem to have a highish update frequency based on my log.

I believe the ECU pulls a little ignition timing over 200* F -- not sure how fast the analog gauge responds, but the ECU is probably updating fairly close to real time.

Literally read this thread as oil temp at 335 degrees. Was about to say you have a major problem.

Me too.

Anyways, corvettes have the same issue with the oil temp getting very hot if you push them. This is nothing new, all your standard production cars will overheat their oil if you push them hard for some time. Its just you won't know you're doing it because 99% of all these cars don't have an oil temp gauge. If we didn't have an oil temp gauge and limp mode no one would even bring these topics up.

The oil weight that is recommended at operating temp (100c or 212f) for this car is a 30 grade.
If you are seeing high temps constantly switch to a 40 grade.
You can see in the chart that a 30 grade oil at 212f has the same viscosity as a 40 grade oil at 240f. Those these only come in 10w40 commonly so you will lose some efficiency for cold starts because the oil will be thicker then a 5W.

yah, i suppose that is a good idea to use different viscosity for certain conditions if the 5w30's not cutting it.

Mobil 1 makes a 0W-40. It's their European blend. And it only costs $25 for 5 qts at Walmart. I know a number of forum members are running it. I was considering it because the Z runs quite warm. I may try it for my next oil change to run through the summer. We'll see.

I took a drive in the mountians this weekend. With the oil temp probe in my oil pan on the freeway at a constant 70mph the oil temps would sit at 210F. On some windy roads at about 50mph the temps would climp up to about 225F. Keep in mind this is not while driving it hard, this is while following campers and other motorists through winding roads. Nonetheless it seems quite high to me. I didnt notice any change in throttle response or in the way the car performed however.

I've cruised hot Texas highways for several hours and seen my oil temps creep up around 240F at 80 mph in past summers. IATs are through the roof when stopped and timing is definitely being pulled.

yah, my temps are 210-220 range in the summer. nowhere near the 240 when i start worrying.

and my ride is a 09 with no oil cooler. i have no need or any plans for extra oil cooling.

It doesn't feel right with you making normal replies to posts.

:ughdance:

:confused: if it's a valid post, i reply with a valid reply.

only when dumbarses post useless shitt or dumb quesitons here, do i post for enterTrollment. :mad: :icon17:

I've only had mine up to 240 once, and I was on it hard in 90+ degree weather. Usually sits around 210-215. This weekend I went on a spirited run and it hit 220 a couple times and settled back down to 215 once I left off. I've been eyeing a 19 row cooler which should suit my driving style perfectly. Hoping to get it this summer, we'll see if I get around to it.

Believe it or not -- simply adding metal fins to the oil pan has kept my oil temps about 10 -15* cooler, confirmed on two different 370's.

Search for ARC cool fins -- they use a heat conductive adhesive as well, and while simple and kinda "ghetto" seeming, it does help pull heat away.

I have 2-3 all over the underside of the oil pan and another couple on the dif. On the dyno, oil temps drop down faster between pulls with them as well.

In normal somewhat spirited driving in FL i typically see temps around 200* - 205* F tops, and logged around 207* F on Cipher. In prolonged drives in the heat -- 220* tops. I've never seen it go past that after the fins were added, whereas before it might creep as high as 235* -- still not hot enough to really worry, but the fins are very cheap and do actually work as claimed.

Sounds like u don't really need one. You are in no way punishing the motor or the oil. If u track then I'd look I to it.

Good data and post!

wheew... not quite :tup:


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Zg7%2BEa3vL.jpg

By an engineering standpoint as long as you have a good conductive paste between the oil pan and the fins this would actually work quite well. No different than an electrical heat sink.

I should also point out that before my trip in the mountians I had the plastic undershroud off the car and it would run down in the 180s that way. I might pull it back off to see if there is a correlation between running with it off and cooler temps. I would imagine there would be significantly more airflow around the engine with it removed.

Yeah, that's why I'm not in a huge rush to get one. Just waiting for a good sale. With the 19 row and a thermostatic plate, I won't need to worry about oil temps when flogging it hard or about the oil not heating up enough.

Mine usually sits at exactly the same or a little higher, usually the 220 mark. This is regardless of what the ambient temp is but of course if I start driving it hard or am in a lot of traffic, it will rise higher. At first I was concerned about oil temps when I bought my car 4 years ago. After reading a bunch and keeping an eye on how high it gets (never seen it get over 250), I dont worry anymore and consider it normal. Ive also never noticed any loss in power. Maybe when the ambient temp is 95 with 90% humidity, but thats not due to oil temps...

Well, perhaps JDM Home Depot :icon17:

But, thermodynamics predicts that the extra surface area of metal fins will extract and disperse heat, and lo and behold, they do.

For the ARC fins, which are, after all, only stuck on, the key is surely the heat conductive adhesive -- any old regular 3M trim adhesive tape would presumably not work very well.


:tiphat:

:icon17: hahaha, yah, i saw that it's by the real ARC. so how many of the 10x9cm or watnot sized fins did you mount on your oil pan? :)

I thought about adding a vent to the undershroud (and I believe there is a modshack DIY for that on here), but I don't remember what the final verdict was on what other effects occur -- poorer MPG by being a bit less slippery to air under the car or changing how air flows over the radiator, for example.

I think it remains an open question without further testing...

I think 2-3. You can get some shears and snip the fins and the adhesive pads to fit tight spaces. I might try and add a few more segments of fin on my next oil change -- can't recall if I have any open space left. I'll try to get a pic next time too.

You can definitely fit at least two on the diff -- a cheap-o alternative to the Nismo finned cover. Not as flashy, but same principal :p

that's cool, good info. thanks :tup:

The only ill-effect I noticed was that the front bumper wasn't as rigid as it was before. Next time I change my oil ill leave it off again just to observe the oil temps.

It's a shame that our cars cant operate normally at the same oil temps as other modern performance or everyday cars. embarassing even. but there isn't much we can do aside from prolonging our enjoyment by investing in oil to air oil coolers.

I've had my belly shield off for a while before and to be honest, if there was a difference it wasn't noticeable. The front bumper is definitely not as rigidly held in place but i've gone for months with no shield and i spend a fair amount of time on motorways. Ever since i realised i could do any oil change just by popping the rear screws off the shield and folding it back, i havent removed the shield except when it had to come off.

Thanks for the heads up about the stick on heatsinks. You can buy Arctic Silver thermal compound adhesive from computer parts shops. It's an epoxy type glue. You can also buy the adhesive pads from some computer parts suppliers but i haven't seen any that would hold up to the elements. Speaking of which, computer heatsinks are really cheap.