Bad Driving Habits (M/T)

Masa · 05-16-2011, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleek

In no way, shape or form is putting the car in neutral wasting gas. Infact, if you're cruising at a "higher speed" (IE 80mph) and go into neutral, the car reads you're getting a higher MPG simply because the engine is not cranking/producing RPM's.

Like others have said - it's pretty common knowledge.

Car in neutral at ANY speed = throttle body is default to idling to keep engine running. Idling uses fuel regardless if your car is stopped or coasting since it makes the engine stay at a certain rpm.

Car coasting at speed in gear means the throttle body is actually shut off at this point if you are coasting and have your foot off the gas. Coasting in gear wastes no gas since the throttle body is completely shut.

You can actually test this out yourself in the 370z if you put our little computer thing to the real time mpg bar. Coast in idle then coast in gear - Coasting in gear will yield a higher mpg than coasting in neutral.

Drex · 05-16-2011, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lazywolfe

From the Car Talk guys about holding the clutch in while stopped:

"Dear Tom and Ray:

A friend of mine at work and I have a disagreement regarding using the clutch on a standard-shift car. He says that keeping the clutch pressed in will wear out the throw-out bearing, and I say it won't. For example, he says that when on a hill, the smart driver will put the car in neutral and let the clutch out, keeping one foot on the brake, to save wear and tear on the throw-out bearing. I say keeping the clutch depressed won't cause wear and tear. Who's right? -- Red

RAY: He is.
...

TOM: The second most common type of clutch failure is when the throw-out bearing (also called the release bearing) fails. That's the bearing that pushes the clutch plates apart when you push in the clutch pedal to change gears.

RAY: Used correctly, the throw-out bearing will last much longer than the clutch disc. But if you sit at red lights with your foot on the clutch pedal all the time, you can wear out the throw-out bearing before you wear out your clutch disc. And because that's an entirely preventable condition, we call that clutch murder in the second degree.

TOM: The problem is, if either the disc OR the bearing fails, you then have to replace the whole clutch. To reach either of those parts, you have to remove the entire transmission. And once you've paid for all that labor, you'd be crazy to do half the clutch. On most cars these days, a clutch job is at least a thousand bucks.
"

Car Talk

yep exactly what happened on my rsx. throw-out bearing failed due to being lazy and holding the clutch all the way in at lights, stop signs, etc. had to replace my entire clutch for ~$1500.

kenchan · 05-16-2011, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoopajae10

Dumb question, while in gear, is it bad if you dont clutch in to pop the stick back into neutral?

not bad at all. heck i do it all the time in my dd. basically while braking i blip the throttle just a hair and put into neutral without using the clutch.

you can even shift up without your clutch if you can get the rev's perfect.

shoopajae10 · 05-16-2011, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenchan

not bad at all. heck i do it all the time in my dd. basically while braking i blip the throttle just a hair and put into neutral without using the clutch.

you can even shift up without your clutch if you can get the rev's perfect.

Well, since i have syncro rev match, and its rev's should be perfect all the time, i can do this on my 370z?

Im sure its not recommended, but would it hurt the transmission? would it even let me?

brado · 05-16-2011, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoopajae10

Well, since i have syncro rev match, and its rev's should be perfect all the time, i can do this on my 370z?

Im sure its not recommended, but would it hurt the transmission? would it even let me?

in tractor trailors you never have to use the clutch unless you are stopped. i dont know if its the same with cars though.

kenchan · 05-16-2011, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoopajae10

Well, since i have syncro rev match, and its rev's should be perfect all the time, i can do this on my 370z?

Im sure its not recommended, but would it hurt the transmission? would it even let me?

Hahaha, not recommended but u can try it.

shoopajae10 · 05-16-2011, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenchan

Hahaha, not recommended but u can try it.

No thanks. But I really want to know if it works, so I nominate brado.

Red__Zed · 05-16-2011, 06:50 PM

Doesn't synchro rev only work when the clutch is in?

brado · 05-16-2011, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoopajae10

No thanks. But I really want to know if it works, so I nominate brado.

haha its not gonna be me, how about you try it. i have done it in an old chevy truck though.

nabenson · 05-16-2011, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brado

in tractor trailors you never have to use the clutch unless you are stopped. i dont know if its the same with cars though.

They often have straight cut gears and/or no synchros. That's why they can shift without using the clutch without damaging anything. If you can rev match properly you can shift without it.

On a car with synchros (pretty much all production passenger vehicles) this is REALLY BAD for them. Syncros are typically brass or similar (read: soft) and shifting under stress chews them up.

Shifting into neutral without the clutch, on the other hand, doesn't damage anything. They synchros don't do anything when you pull it out of gear, just when you're putting it in.

kenchan · 05-16-2011, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

Doesn't synchro rev only work when the clutch is in?

Not sure... when I did it on my dd (no SRM) I sounded like a dogbox.

one blip to get it out of gear and another blip to get to the next gear. It was a rough shift. Lol. Not bad like a newb learning MT though.

cfweber · 05-16-2011, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rone

I've had this car for almost two weeks now. It's the first M/T I've owned. I learned to drive a stick a few years ago from a good friend so I'm sure there are some things I still need to know.

Surprisingly, I've only stalled a hand full of times while getting used to it. What are some bad habits that you should try to avoid or break when driving a stick? I tried searching but didn't have any luck. Hopefully me and others on the forum can learn and have our cars last a little longer, lol.

Click Me!
Learn How to Drive a Manual Transmission

Augustus · 02-21-2012, 01:34 PM

Resurrecting an old thread but I thought that'd be better than starting another one. Curious on how you guys do a normal, flat-surface start in 1st. More vs. Less slip.

Had my Z for a month. My 2nd manual but the first one (WRX) I only had for a couple of years (bought new) to about 25k miles, so not long enough to understand long-term effects. Had a few bikes too, so clutches there but only about 10k total miles on them, not enough to know long-term.

Buddy at work has a daily-driver Cobalt but also a nice Mustang GT/CS that he drives on nice days. Both are manuals. I notice that when he drives, he uses a lot more revs & slip than I do to get going. Not a lot, perhaps 1,400-1,600 RPM for the 'stang, perhaps 2000-2200 for the Cobalt. Then clutch out smooth, but somewhat slowly -perhaps 2 or 3 seconds of slip - and go. Makes for a very smooth takeoff. A fast launch is more revs, but more or less the same amount of slippage. AFAIK, he's never had any clutch problems and he's had manuals for several years now.

I've got it in my head that I want the least RPM and least slippage I can get away with. So when I take off, I'm basically starting at idle (unless it's on a hill, then there's got to be gas). Just at the friction point I'm feathering the gas and coming off the clutch smoothly but quickly, perhaps 1-1.5 seconds for a normal, flat take-off. So by 1k RPM, I'm off the clutch and I'm applying gas to move. But in doing this sometimes I do get a bit of clutch chatter or rattle/clunk from the transmission when I let the RPM's fall too close to stalling. Though I have never stalled my Z. A fast launch would involve 2000-2500 RPM's and a very fast clutch release.

So, who's doing it right?

My buddy's method does result in smoother takeoffs, so I'm thinking his technique is superior. But I've got it in my head that slipping like that is a bad thing for the clutch. While I won't likely have this car past 50-60k miles, I would rather not wear out the clutch (or transmission) prematurely.

Do I need to chill out on 'saving' the clutch and purposefully get the revs up a bit more with a bit more slip, for the sake of smoothness? Or is the low-slip method better, but I just need to work on more finesse with the clutch/throttle to avoid chattering/clunking?

kenchan · 02-21-2012, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augustus

Resurrecting an old thread but I thought that'd be better than starting another one. Curious on how you guys do a normal, flat-surface start in 1st. More vs. Less slip.

Had my Z for a month. My 2nd manual but the first one (WRX) I only had for a couple of years (bought new) to about 25k miles, so not long enough to understand long-term effects. Had a few bikes too, so clutches there but only about 10k total miles on them, not enough to know long-term.

Buddy at work has a daily-driver Cobalt but also a nice Mustang GT/CS that he drives on nice days. Both are manuals. I notice that when he drives, he uses a lot more revs & slip than I do to get going. Not a lot, perhaps 1,400-1,600 RPM for the 'stang, perhaps 2000-2200 for the Cobalt. Then clutch out smooth, but somewhat slowly -perhaps 2 or 3 seconds of slip - and go. Makes for a very smooth takeoff. A fast launch is more revs, but more or less the same amount of slippage. AFAIK, he's never had any clutch problems and he's had manuals for several years now.

I've got it in my head that I want the least RPM and least slippage I can get away with. So when I take off, I'm basically starting at idle (unless it's on a hill, then there's got to be gas). Just at the friction point I'm feathering the gas and coming off the clutch smoothly but quickly, perhaps 1-1.5 seconds for a normal, flat take-off. So by 1k RPM, I'm off the clutch and I'm applying gas to move. But in doing this sometimes I do get a bit of clutch chatter or rattle/clunk from the transmission when I let the RPM's fall too close to stalling. Though I have never stalled my Z. A fast launch would involve 2000-2500 RPM's and a very fast clutch release.

So, who's doing it right?

My buddy's method does result in smoother takeoffs, so I'm thinking his technique is superior. But I've got it in my head that slipping like that is a bad thing for the clutch. While I won't likely have this car past 50-60k miles, I would rather not wear out the clutch (or transmission) prematurely.

Do I need to chill out on 'saving' the clutch and purposefully get the revs up a bit more for the sake of smoothness? Or is the no-slip method better, but I just need to work on more finesse with the clutch/throttle to avoid chattering/clunking?

it's not a contest who can start the car at lower rpm. on the Z i rev considerably higher than my G and engagement duration is about a second longer. why? flywheel is lighter so it takes a tad longer to get the momentum going.

also check out the helper-spring mod. that might help your situation too as the clutch pedal feel is

on the Z until you remove/replace that spring.

GL!

Vaughanabe13 · 02-21-2012, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augustus

Resurrecting an old thread but I thought that'd be better than starting another one. Curious on how you guys do a normal, flat-surface start in 1st. More vs. Less slip.

Had my Z for a month. My 2nd manual but the first one (WRX) I only had for a couple of years (bought new) to about 25k miles, so not long enough to understand long-term effects. Had a few bikes too, so clutches there but only about 10k total miles on them, not enough to know long-term.

Buddy at work has a daily-driver Cobalt but also a nice Mustang GT/CS that he drives on nice days. Both are manuals. I notice that when he drives, he uses a lot more revs & slip than I do to get going. Not a lot, perhaps 1,400-1,600 RPM for the 'stang, perhaps 2000-2200 for the Cobalt. Then clutch out smooth, but somewhat slowly -perhaps 2 or 3 seconds of slip - and go. Makes for a very smooth takeoff. A fast launch is more revs, but more or less the same amount of slippage. AFAIK, he's never had any clutch problems and he's had manuals for several years now.

I've got it in my head that I want the least RPM and least slippage I can get away with. So when I take off, I'm basically starting at idle (unless it's on a hill, then there's got to be gas). Just at the friction point I'm feathering the gas and coming off the clutch smoothly but quickly, perhaps 1-1.5 seconds for a normal, flat take-off. So by 1k RPM, I'm off the clutch and I'm applying gas to move. But in doing this sometimes I do get a bit of clutch chatter or rattle/clunk from the transmission when I let the RPM's fall too close to stalling. Though I have never stalled my Z. A fast launch would involve 2000-2500 RPM's and a very fast clutch release.

So, who's doing it right?

My buddy's method does result in smoother takeoffs, so I'm thinking his technique is superior. But I've got it in my head that slipping like that is a bad thing for the clutch. While I won't likely have this car past 50-60k miles, I would rather not wear out the clutch (or transmission) prematurely.

Do I need to chill out on 'saving' the clutch and purposefully get the revs up a bit more with a bit more slip, for the sake of smoothness? Or is the low-slip method better, but I just need to work on more finesse with the clutch/throttle to avoid chattering/clunking?

I have found (and read on here) that the Z doesn't have much low end torque, so you should really be giving it a little more gas on starts. 2K RPM is probably a good rough marker to shoot for. I also agree with the other poster about the clutch helper spring, it makes a HUGE difference in clutch feel and knowing when you hit the engagement point.

02-21-2012, 01:34 PM	#58 (permalink)
Augustus Base Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Illinois Posts: 146 Drives: 2011 370Z Touring M6 Rep Power: 13	resurrect.. Resurrecting an old thread but I thought that'd be better than starting another one. Curious on how you guys do a normal, flat-surface start in 1st. More vs. Less slip. Had my Z for a month. My 2nd manual but the first one (WRX) I only had for a couple of years (bought new) to about 25k miles, so not long enough to understand long-term effects. Had a few bikes too, so clutches there but only about 10k total miles on them, not enough to know long-term. Buddy at work has a daily-driver Cobalt but also a nice Mustang GT/CS that he drives on nice days. Both are manuals. I notice that when he drives, he uses a lot more revs & slip than I do to get going. Not a lot, perhaps 1,400-1,600 RPM for the 'stang, perhaps 2000-2200 for the Cobalt. Then clutch out smooth, but somewhat slowly -perhaps 2 or 3 seconds of slip - and go. Makes for a very smooth takeoff. A fast launch is more revs, but more or less the same amount of slippage. AFAIK, he's never had any clutch problems and he's had manuals for several years now. I've got it in my head that I want the least RPM and least slippage I can get away with. So when I take off, I'm basically starting at idle (unless it's on a hill, then there's got to be gas). Just at the friction point I'm feathering the gas and coming off the clutch smoothly but quickly, perhaps 1-1.5 seconds for a normal, flat take-off. So by 1k RPM, I'm off the clutch and I'm applying gas to move. But in doing this sometimes I do get a bit of clutch chatter or rattle/clunk from the transmission when I let the RPM's fall too close to stalling. Though I have never stalled my Z. A fast launch would involve 2000-2500 RPM's and a very fast clutch release. So, who's doing it right? My buddy's method does result in smoother takeoffs, so I'm thinking his technique is superior. But I've got it in my head that slipping like that is a bad thing for the clutch. While I won't likely have this car past 50-60k miles, I would rather not wear out the clutch (or transmission) prematurely. Do I need to chill out on 'saving' the clutch and purposefully get the revs up a bit more with a bit more slip, for the sake of smoothness? Or is the low-slip method better, but I just need to work on more finesse with the clutch/throttle to avoid chattering/clunking? Last edited by Augustus; 02-21-2012 at 01:38 PM.

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05-16-2011, 06:50 PM	#53 (permalink)
Red__Zed A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: window seat Posts: 28,940 Drives: Mostly on two wheels Rep Power: 119	Doesn't synchro rev only work when the clutch is in?