An Open Challenge to the Aftermarket

Jordo! · 03-13-2011, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyBobo

This thread is fairly hilarious - its like the lazymans approach to car modding. Like you should be able to walk into a McDonalds and see everything you wanted to know about every part all nicely laid out for you on a buffet table to choose from.

With your previous post, you've spoken the obvious that everyone already knew - the price/value relationship will generally be drastically inverted the more power gains you have. Of course, this is related to similar parts (you cant compare the value of a 100WHP gain from juice to the cost of 100HP from a supercharger...).

You are not entitled to have all the information you want, simply because you have cash. Sometimes, its even like comparing apples to apples, and its all preference.

Tell you what...how about companies do exactly what you want on one condition: they do it on the same day that every single car/motor from a manufacturer is IDENTICAL to each other, down to the tenth of a horsepower. Enough that whatever mod you do will give the EXACT SAME RESULT on another car. And that is yet another reason why they dont advertise numbers - your results will vary. You even said it yourself - "on average", "should net", "should get you within a few whp". Can you guarantee? No.

Who said anything about entitlement?

This is a request.

Average (or maybe modal) gains are more telling, provided you have enough data points, than extreme outliers (the gain "up to" argument). That doesn't make the information useless. Every car is not all that different -- it's the same motor with only one of two drivetrains (and limited evidence of any loss differences between them).

The biggest variable factors will be type of dynamometer and correction factor. I have a feeling miles of break-in may play a role too. Anyway, that's why I look at (and talk about) % changes rather than raw values -- it's much more consistent.

What's hilarious is the degree of outrage this thread has inspired by consumers... you guys should demand more info not less.

Ironically, the food info analogy is fairly apt: Yeah, I do like knowing the calorie, fat, protien, carb, etc content of the food I eat.

Why is that a bad thing?

Having more info enables you to make smarter choices about what suits your needs, no?

Does that spoil the magic and the mystery for you or something?

MightyBobo · 03-13-2011, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Who said anything about entitlement?

This is a request.

Average (or maybe modal) gains are more telling, provided you have enough data points, than extreme outliers (the gain "up to" argument). That doesn't make the information useless. Every car is not all that different -- it's the same motor with only one of two drivetrains (and limited evidence of any loss differences between them).

The biggest variable factors will be type of dynamometer and correction factor. I have a feeling miles of break-in may play a role too. Anyway, that's why I look at (and talk about) % changes rather than raw values -- it's much more consistent.

What's hilarious is the degree of outrage this thread has inspired by consumers... you guys should demand more info not less.

Ironically, the food info analogy is fairly apt: Yeah, I do like knowing the calorie, fat, protien, carb, etc content of the food I eat.

Why is that a bad thing?

Having more info enables you to make smarter choices about what suits your needs, no?

Does that spoil the magic and the mystery for you or something?

Are you saying that every hamburger at McDonalds has the exact same caloric count? Or do you think that, for the most part, its "up to" that many calories?

More information never hurts, but you can only realistically demand so much from a company, not to mention if they start throwing numbers around that is just asking for some kind of lawsuits potentially...

Jordo! · 03-14-2011, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyBobo

Are you saying that every hamburger at McDonalds has the exact same caloric count? Or do you think that, for the most part, its "up to" that many calories?

More information never hurts, but you can only realistically demand so much from a company, not to mention if they start throwing numbers around that is just asking for some kind of lawsuits potentially...

Now that you mention it, I have no idea how much variance there is food labeling -- hmm.

Anyway, I'm not demanding anything. No company is even obligated to provide a single dyno to demonstrate the potential gains from its product -- it's entirely a matter of marketing.

In other words, because consumers have "demanded" (requested? Challenged?) additional information, many manufacturers of aftermarket parts provide before and after dynos.

If a new intake comes out, I think it would be interesting to see a three way comparison with paper, high flow, and their new set-up -- that's all I'm saying (hint -- a company is in the process of making one, and the design is promising).

Who knows if anyone will bother to take my challenge/respond to my request -- but if they did, it would be more compelling than providing nothing or simply showing that the new product outperforms a bone stock set-up.

For example, AEM provides comparison data (or at least they used to) for their dry flow filter vs paper vs other high flow competitor products, so what I am asking isn't really all that outrageous.

Likewise, I'd like it if more wheel distributors would provide the weights.

Again, just a request

Honestly, I'm not sure what fired me up enough to make this thread -- but it's generated some interesting discussion

MightyBobo · 03-14-2011, 04:04 AM

The food thing was something I ask myself all the time at the chow hall lol. They post nutritional facts, but in the end, I just have to accept that its an approximation, and I cant expect to know the SPECIFICS for each meal I have.

GZ3 · 03-14-2011, 02:41 PM

i gained 10rwhp with AFE drop ins and Post mafs...dyno are here somewhere

Jordo! · 03-14-2011, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GZ3

i gained 10rwhp with AFE drop ins and Post mafs...dyno are here somewhere

That sounds about right -- I bet more at some points under the curve too.

Like I said, about a 5% gain for CAI and about 3-4% for panel filters plus tubes. Very, very close.

b1adesofcha0s · 03-14-2011, 03:31 PM

Even if manufacturers were to post comparisons with competitor's product, there is no way in hell they would post a comparison that shows some other company's product is better than their own or even relatively close to their product for a much lower cost. That would just be stupid and kill their business. Why would any company advertise on it's website "here's our product, but it's not as good as this other company's product" or "here's our product, but you can get almost the same results for half the cost". That would kill most if not all of their sales. With that being said, if manufacturers only show comparisons with products that aren't as good while ignoring those that are better, what is the point of the comparison? It does not really give you any useful information. Just my

I do agree about the wheel weight issue though. I wouldn't buy any wheels from anyone who won't tell me something so simple and important in my decision making process.

03-14-2011, 04:04 AM	#4 (permalink)
MightyBobo A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 8,465 Drives: No cars; only bikes Rep Power: 54	The food thing was something I ask myself all the time at the chow hall lol. They post nutritional facts, but in the end, I just have to accept that its an approximation, and I cant expect to know the SPECIFICS for each meal I have. __________________ I don't own a car anymore.

03-14-2011, 02:41 PM	#5 (permalink)
GZ3 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: SATX Posts: 3,296 Drives: Z Rep Power: 23	i gained 10rwhp with AFE drop ins and Post mafs...dyno are here somewhere __________________ 09 GT-R 12' 370Z 7AT HANDED DOWN 12'+13' 5.0 SOLD

03-14-2011, 03:31 PM	#7 (permalink)
b1adesofcha0s A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: MD Posts: 40,963 Drives: HypeTrain Choo Choo! Rep Power: 143	Even if manufacturers were to post comparisons with competitor's product, there is no way in hell they would post a comparison that shows some other company's product is better than their own or even relatively close to their product for a much lower cost. That would just be stupid and kill their business. Why would any company advertise on it's website "here's our product, but it's not as good as this other company's product" or "here's our product, but you can get almost the same results for half the cost". That would kill most if not all of their sales. With that being said, if manufacturers only show comparisons with products that aren't as good while ignoring those that are better, what is the point of the comparison? It does not really give you any useful information. Just my I do agree about the wheel weight issue though. I wouldn't buy any wheels from anyone who won't tell me something so simple and important in my decision making process. __________________ Project: b1adeZmobile (2009 370Z) \| Uprev Tune by AAM Competition \| Berk Exhaust Project: b1adeZmobile 2.0 (2014 C7 Z51) \| Corsa Xtreme Exhaust

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