Does synchro-rev really matter??

aiksmithirvin · 04-05-2009, 08:35 AM

Hey guys, I am targeting the 370z for my next purchase but I have a question that I need answered. For a relatively novice manual driver (I learned when I was 16 and now I am 38!!!), I learned stick with my dad's cherokee but stopped driving stick soon after his truck was stolen, have been automatic driver ever since. I was wondering, if my driving is going to be city driving(dropping my kid at school, going to work) would the lack of synchro-rev really be such a noticeable difference that it would affect my driving experience??

Your feedback is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

iceman21_23 · 04-05-2009, 09:20 AM

well considering that you've never had synchro-rev i doubt you'll miss it. an automatic will be just fine; if you want an automatic get it.

STEVE-O · 04-05-2009, 10:29 AM

The car will operate normally as you change gears while you increase speed, but if you are approaching a turn or preparing to overtake another vehicle, the car will automatically rev the engine in anticipation of the lower gear. As you downshift, the transition is seamless and the car will not jerk at all. In any other manual car, you must provide the additional engine speed by depressing the accelerator. Although that is not difficult for enthusiasts, it takes some practice and finesse for novices. I personally think that it is a great technology and it should be embraced. When my lease is up I plan to get a revmatch car.

Minicobra1 · 04-05-2009, 12:48 PM

If you decide to go with the MT6 versus the Auto, it's a no brainer to go for the sport package. For $3k you get the awesome Syncro Rev which in of itself it worth that too me :-) plus limited slip differential, 14" Akebono Sport brakes, 19" forged Rays wheels, and larger sway bars. All that for $3K, it's a total steal!!

RedlineHR · 04-05-2009, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minicobra1

If you decide to go with the MT6 versus the Auto, it's a no brainer to go for the sport package. For $3k you get the awesome Syncro Rev which in of itself it worth that too me :-) plus limited slip differential, 14" Akebono Sport brakes, 19" forged Rays wheels, and larger sway bars. All that for $3K, it's a total steal!!

+1

Also, I think it depends on how aggressively you drive. When on a twisty back-road, do you find yourself braking heavily approaching a corner, even late-braking a bit - all 4 wheels sliding (controllably) at the limit of adhesion (not skidding) while simultaneously shifting from 3rd to second early in the corner so you can get into the power-band in 2nd so you can feather the throttle to weight the rear tires for a more balanced slide and power-on earlier on the exit, but you don't want to let the clutch out in 2nd, early-mid corner, with RPMs not matched and induce engine braking which will unweight the rear tires and possibly send you into a spin if you can't heel-toe effectively with your right foot to get the RPMs in the right place. I'll admit I suck at heel-toe shifting so I need that help.

Yeah, then it would be worth it. If you don't drive like that, you will not see much benefit. But since it comes as part of a very well-priced Sports package that also gets you wheels/tires and big brakes, spoilers, you may as well just get the sports package and syncroRev match just somes with it.

Nikon FM · 04-05-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiksmithirvin

Hey guys, I am targeting the 370z for my next purchase but I have a question that I need answered. For a relatively novice manual driver (I learned when I was 16 and now I am 38!!!), I learned stick with my dad's cherokee but stopped driving stick soon after his truck was stolen, have been automatic driver ever since. I was wondering, if my driving is going to be city driving(dropping my kid at school, going to work) would the lack of synchro-rev really be such a noticeable difference that it would affect my driving experience??

Your feedback is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

I really don't think "it" matters, but "it" sure is dang fun.

Forrest · 04-05-2009, 04:03 PM

I to am a novice manual car driver. Its been 1 month since i started driving manual and syncrorev has made it EASY. I probably can not drive manual with out it or as good.

So i say if you are getting m6 you SHOULD GET SYNCRO

Oh yeah under nissan packages for sport
http://www.nissanusa.com/zcoupe/packaged-options.html

Not once does it say larger sway bars and its the first i ever heard of this.

kailua · 04-06-2009, 12:17 AM

Funny thing, I've had a bunch of 4 cylinder, manual cars (06 STI, 09 Speed3, 09 STI) and never really needed nor wanted the synchro rev match. With the V6, the synchro rev match helps alot, and without it, it is less forgiving when you down shift.

semtex · 04-06-2009, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kailua

Funny thing, I've had a bunch of 4 cylinder, manual cars (06 STI, 09 Speed3, 09 STI) and never really needed nor wanted the synchro rev match. With the V6, the synchro rev match helps alot, and without it, it is less forgiving when you down shift.

That's due to the heavy dual-mass flywheel. Has nothing to with 6 vs. 4 cylinders. Heavy flywheels have more inertia, which means it takes more energy to change the revs (in either direction). When you downshift, if you don't blip the throttle in advance (either manually or via SRM), the revs will climb as soon as you re-engage the clutch as a lower gear revs higher than the preceding higher one. In other words, as soon as you re-engage the clutch, the clutch will 'grab' the flywheel and force the rpms up. Because a high-mass flywheel has more inertia and it takes more energy for the revs to climb, it's jerkier. This would be true regardless of how many cylinders the engine has. And it's also why they offer lightweight flywheels on the aftermarket (one of the most popular for this car is from Jim Wolf Technology.)

SiXK · 04-06-2009, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikon FM

I really don't think "it" matters, but "it" sure is dang fun.

right on.

kailua · 04-06-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

That's due to the heavy dual-mass flywheel. Has nothing to with 6 vs. 4 cylinders. Heavy flywheels have more inertia, which means it takes more energy to change the revs (in either direction). When you downshift, if you don't blip the throttle in advance (either manually or via SRM), the revs will climb as soon as you re-engage the clutch as a lower gear revs higher than the preceding higher one. In other words, as soon as you re-engage the clutch, the clutch will 'grab' the flywheel and force the rpms up. Because a high-mass flywheel has more inertia and it takes more energy for the revs to climb, it's jerkier. This would be true regardless of how many cylinders the engine has. And it's also why they offer lightweight flywheels on the aftermarket (one of the most popular for this car is from Jim Wolf Technology.)

What are the benefits of a heavy flywheel? Does it smooth out up shifts because of more inertia, but when you down shift there's too much inertia, hence the synchro rev match to smooth things out? Any benefits for the Z to not have a lightweight flywheel from the factory? I assume it wouldn't cost Nissan more dinero to put in a lightweight flywheel as opposed to one that is heavy?

Also, how come the 4 cylinder vehicles I mentioned do not come with a heavier flywheel, just overkill for a 4 cylinders I guess? Is there a simple rule of thumb that says, if you have a specific type of engine or output then there would be an optimum weight flywheel for that engine, etc?

semtex · 04-06-2009, 03:16 PM

Actually, a heavier flywheel isn't so good for upshifts either, because with a heavier flywheel, the rpms don't drop as quickly in between gears. The higher inertia keeps the rpms spinning for a longer time when you disengage the clutch, but when you shift into a higher gear and re-engage the clutch, the new gear is going to start off at a lower rpm, so upshifts can be jerky as well, especially if you're shifting very quickly. The benefits of a heavier flywheel are less noise, and easier launches. My understanding is that Nissan chose a heavy flywheel specifically due to noise concerns. (They did this with the 350 and G35 as well, btw -- this isn't a new deal specific to the 370 and G37.) And I believe it, because in my 350 I had a JWT lightweight flywheel and that thing sounded dreadful. To the untrained ear, it sounded like the car had a mechanical problem, so installing a lightweight flywheel from the factory would probably have hurt sales as the average consumer would be turned off by the sound. Regarding launches off the line, a lightweight flywheel is much easier to stall, precisely because it has lower rotational inertia. Think of it this way. The flywheel is attached to the crank and is always spinning. When you engage the clutch from a standstill, you are essentially connecting the spinning flywheel to the stationary crankshaft. Now, at that moment, you're mating two opposing forces together. By virtue of inertia, the flywheel wants to continue spinning at whatever rpm level, and the crankshaft wants stay still. Which component will win? Well, the crankshaft will win if you don't give it enough gas. i.e., your engine will stall. With a heavier flywheel, the flywheel has more inertia, which means you have to give it less gas in order to offset the inertia of the stationary crankshaft, which in turn means it's easier to launch without stalling. Indeed, this same physics explains why your engine revs quicker all throughout the rpm band with a lighter flywheel. Remember that the flywheel is connected to the engine crank. When you give your engine gas, the crank spins the flywheel faster. The less mass the flywheel has, the more it's willing to spin faster (i.e., less mass counteracting against the crank). Make sense? (Sorry, I know that was a little long-winded, but I wanted to be as clear as possible.)

The 4 cyl. cars you mentioned probably didn't have a heavy flywheel because they didn't need one for optimal sound level. They were probably a little easier to stall at launch too. I had an S2000 that came with a light flywheel. It was really smooth to shift up and down, but it'd stall easily too from a launch. If I recall correctly, I had to rev it to about 3000 rpm to launch off the line smoothly. I don't have to rev anywhere near that high with the 370Z.

kailua · 04-07-2009, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

Regarding launches off the line, a lightweight flywheel is much easier to stall, precisely because it has lower rotational inertia.

Ah, that explains it, the speed 3 is super easy to stall out. If you even think about letting out the clutch a mm without giving it some gas, it will stall. The STI not as much. I almost bought an auto 370z until I drove the 6spd and in comparison to the other vehicles, it is so much easier to shift and drive on a daily basis, in traffic, etc. This is in direct contrast to my 05 350z which was a pain in the *** to live with in traffic.

MightyBobo · 04-07-2009, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kailua

Ah, that explains it, the speed 3 is super easy to stall out. If you even think about letting out the clutch a mm without giving it some gas, it will stall. The STI not as much. I almost bought an auto 370z until I drove the 6spd and in comparison to the other vehicles, it is so much easier to shift and drive on a daily basis, in traffic, etc. This is in direct contrast to my 05 350z which was a pain in the *** to live with in traffic.

That usually just means it needs an adjustment...

kailua · 04-07-2009, 04:59 AM

It's a pretty common grip about the speed3. Perhaps Mazda's idea of "ideal" and the consumers' idea is different.

04-05-2009, 08:35 AM	#1 (permalink)
aiksmithirvin Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: brownsville Posts: 1 Drives: 2008 3.5 sl altima Rep Power: 17	Does synchro-rev really matter?? Hey guys, I am targeting the 370z for my next purchase but I have a question that I need answered. For a relatively novice manual driver (I learned when I was 16 and now I am 38!!!), I learned stick with my dad's cherokee but stopped driving stick soon after his truck was stolen, have been automatic driver ever since. I was wondering, if my driving is going to be city driving(dropping my kid at school, going to work) would the lack of synchro-rev really be such a noticeable difference that it would affect my driving experience?? Your feedback is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

04-05-2009, 10:29 AM	#3 (permalink)
STEVE-O Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Fishers, IN (NE Indy) Posts: 2 Drives: 07 E90 Rep Power: 17	The car will operate normally as you change gears while you increase speed, but if you are approaching a turn or preparing to overtake another vehicle, the car will automatically rev the engine in anticipation of the lower gear. As you downshift, the transition is seamless and the car will not jerk at all. In any other manual car, you must provide the additional engine speed by depressing the accelerator. Although that is not difficult for enthusiasts, it takes some practice and finesse for novices. I personally think that it is a great technology and it should be embraced. When my lease is up I plan to get a revmatch car. __________________ STEVE-O from G35Driver 2005 G coupe (lease ended), 2007 E90 (current)

04-05-2009, 12:48 PM	#4 (permalink)
Minicobra1 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Orange County, CA. Posts: 1,205 Drives: 370Z Tour, Spt, 6mt Rep Power: 645	If you decide to go with the MT6 versus the Auto, it's a no brainer to go for the sport package. For $3k you get the awesome Syncro Rev which in of itself it worth that too me :-) plus limited slip differential, 14" Akebono Sport brakes, 19" forged Rays wheels, and larger sway bars. All that for $3K, it's a total steal!! __________________ 370z Tour\| Spt Pack\|Navi\|BERK CBE\|Berk HFC's\| Eibach Springs\| Hotchkis Sway Bars\|SPC Camber Arms\|15mm Ichiba Wheel Spacers\| 19"Factory Nismo Wheels-Matt Black\|Stop Tech Rotors\|TWM Shifter\|3M Tint\|Black Fangs\|Black Rear Valance\|JDM Fog Light\| MY BAND-www.myspace.com/petroleum

04-05-2009, 04:03 PM	#7 (permalink)
Forrest Track Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: california 707! Posts: 677 Drives: 09 370z Blk 6mt sprt Rep Power: 259	I to am a novice manual car driver. Its been 1 month since i started driving manual and syncrorev has made it EASY. I probably can not drive manual with out it or as good. So i say if you are getting m6 you SHOULD GET SYNCRO Oh yeah under nissan packages for sport http://www.nissanusa.com/zcoupe/packaged-options.html Not once does it say larger sway bars and its the first i ever heard of this. Last edited by Forrest; 04-05-2009 at 04:06 PM.

04-06-2009, 03:16 PM	#12 (permalink)
semtex A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Behind enemy lines Age: 54 Posts: 5,995 Drives: People to drink Rep Power: 33	Actually, a heavier flywheel isn't so good for upshifts either, because with a heavier flywheel, the rpms don't drop as quickly in between gears. The higher inertia keeps the rpms spinning for a longer time when you disengage the clutch, but when you shift into a higher gear and re-engage the clutch, the new gear is going to start off at a lower rpm, so upshifts can be jerky as well, especially if you're shifting very quickly. The benefits of a heavier flywheel are less noise, and easier launches. My understanding is that Nissan chose a heavy flywheel specifically due to noise concerns. (They did this with the 350 and G35 as well, btw -- this isn't a new deal specific to the 370 and G37.) And I believe it, because in my 350 I had a JWT lightweight flywheel and that thing sounded dreadful. To the untrained ear, it sounded like the car had a mechanical problem, so installing a lightweight flywheel from the factory would probably have hurt sales as the average consumer would be turned off by the sound. Regarding launches off the line, a lightweight flywheel is much easier to stall, precisely because it has lower rotational inertia. Think of it this way. The flywheel is attached to the crank and is always spinning. When you engage the clutch from a standstill, you are essentially connecting the spinning flywheel to the stationary crankshaft. Now, at that moment, you're mating two opposing forces together. By virtue of inertia, the flywheel wants to continue spinning at whatever rpm level, and the crankshaft wants stay still. Which component will win? Well, the crankshaft will win if you don't give it enough gas. i.e., your engine will stall. With a heavier flywheel, the flywheel has more inertia, which means you have to give it less gas in order to offset the inertia of the stationary crankshaft, which in turn means it's easier to launch without stalling. Indeed, this same physics explains why your engine revs quicker all throughout the rpm band with a lighter flywheel. Remember that the flywheel is connected to the engine crank. When you give your engine gas, the crank spins the flywheel faster. The less mass the flywheel has, the more it's willing to spin faster (i.e., less mass counteracting against the crank). Make sense? (Sorry, I know that was a little long-winded, but I wanted to be as clear as possible.) The 4 cyl. cars you mentioned probably didn't have a heavy flywheel because they didn't need one for optimal sound level. They were probably a little easier to stall at launch too. I had an S2000 that came with a light flywheel. It was really smooth to shift up and down, but it'd stall easily too from a launch. If I recall correctly, I had to rev it to about 3000 rpm to launch off the line smoothly. I don't have to rev anywhere near that high with the 370Z. __________________ "There are no small accidents on this circuit." -- Ayrton Senna 316.8whp & 248 ft/lbs (Dyno Dynamics) \| 319whp & 256 ft/lbs (DynoJet) (04/23/10) Stillen G3 CAI, CBE, Pulley / F.I. LTH / GTSpec Ladder Brace / Setrab Oil Cooler / UpRev-tuned by Forged Perf. Last edited by semtex; 04-06-2009 at 03:19 PM.

04-05-2009, 09:20 AM	#2 (permalink)
iceman21_23 Track Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: league city, tx Posts: 757 Drives: 09' Solid Red 370z Rep Power: 18	well considering that you've never had synchro-rev i doubt you'll miss it. an automatic will be just fine; if you want an automatic get it.

04-06-2009, 12:17 AM	#8 (permalink)
kailua Base Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Earth Posts: 82 Drives: 09 STI Rep Power: 17	Funny thing, I've had a bunch of 4 cylinder, manual cars (06 STI, 09 Speed3, 09 STI) and never really needed nor wanted the synchro rev match. With the V6, the synchro rev match helps alot, and without it, it is less forgiving when you down shift.

04-07-2009, 04:59 AM	#15 (permalink)
kailua Base Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Earth Posts: 82 Drives: 09 STI Rep Power: 17	It's a pretty common grip about the speed3. Perhaps Mazda's idea of "ideal" and the consumers' idea is different.

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