Do you believe in factory freaks

Red__Zed

How do you explain a F20C dynoing 232whp from the factory, while 4 other s2000's on the same dyno, same day dyno'd in the 195whp range.


Anyone doubting the existence of factory freaks can simply take a look at the Nismo section. They're all factory freaks!

Nitrouz

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Jordo!

1. Don't know, it's all hearsay. You tell me how that would happen? My guess is there were other things going on with that motor or the tune that were not explained. Maybe that one revved to 10,000 RPM's.

You're saying these were all unmodifed, bone stock engines with a stock ECU tune? I call BS on that. There is no way a four banger made nearly 40 more horses due to a lucky engine build or ECU transient modifiers such as fuel trims and ignition advance.

2. The Nismos have a different tune, my guess being especially in the VVEL.

Seriously, what would be the logical possible cause of the alleged factory freakishness?

The only major variable is going to be how well the engines break in, which could result in small differences due to compression. For the rest, the ECU is going to keep the tune fairly stable so long as nothing else is changed.

The biggest variable will be the weather.

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Red__Zed

I was there for the dyno runs, saw it myself. All four cars were stock AP1's, with between 15-30k on the clock. I had never believed that FF's had existed (aside from examples of hot cam in grandma's buick), but having seen it in person makes me wonder a little.

The early hand-built prototypes of engine usually make more power than the production version. I think the early build F20C's laid around 285 bhp, but it was toned down for the production model, since there was some allocated variance in the spec. Maybe his engine happened to have gotten tolerances just right, maybe the ECU adjusted a little different...I don't know. His car laid down notably more power, and was faster on the drag strip than I'd ever seen from a stock S2K.

Jordo!

If there was a completely different build and ECU -- maybe. But while I could see maybe 10+ horses from better compression and a little more spark advance or whatever on the same build and tune, 35-40 is hard to believe.

Imagine it had a whole extra compression point (unlikely) or a slightly better flowing head (probably not) -- that's just not going to equate to a 20% bump in power.

How much tighter can tolerance be before it's simply a different engine? For that huge a difference (nearly 20% more power!) were talking a totally different build and tune -- there's just no way.

That's like the difference between a 1ZZ and a 2ZZ engine, and although they have the same displacement and bolt up interchangeably,
the 2ZZ has a totally different short block, head, cam and cam mechanism, and ECU to make that power -- they are two completely different engines!

I'm not trying to be a ****, but there's just no way to explain that huge a difference due to tighter tolerances and an aggressive self-corrected ECU without completely different mechancial parts and a totally, radically, different tune. Something else was going on there and that guy wasn't telling the whole tale. but there's no way those were all identical engines and ECUs. Impossible.

If it was a special prototype or whatever, then it had different parts and a different ECU and is not a factory freak (or at least what I think the term implies) -- just a different set up.

To give you another example, sticking with the 2ZZ engine -- early models (introduced end of 1999) had the ECU tuned by Toyotoa to have the second cam profile activate about 200 RPM earlier than the 2000+ models, making it hit peak torque a bit earlier and making it easier to stay in the power band on gear changes -- that could be construed, I suppose as a "factory freak" in that few cars on the road had this feature and it was otherwise the same build and tune -- BUT, some key elements of the tune were clearly different and it wasn't a "freak" per se (implying a fluke or unintentional/unplanned difference), just a difference between the earlier and later factory tune.

And it wasn't no 40 whp difference. That's a huge difference, espeically on a small displacement motor. I just don't buy it.

EDIT: Wait -- these are NA motors right? The above commentary is for NA -- I'd be more willing to believe it for a boosted car, but even then we're talking a different turbine or big, big difference in the tune.

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GZ3

JORDO!!!........stranger things have happened....lol

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Red__Zed

Yes, they're NA. I can't tell you why, I can just echo what I saw.

A lot of the "factory freaks" are either optimistic dyno's, or underrated cars. My WRX dyno'd at about 25x whp on the same dyno that the new STI's are laying 265. Doesn't really account for the difference between 305 and 265, but that's just a function of the WRX being underrated from the factory.

Jordo!

Yes -- definitely. A lot of cars get underrated from the manufacturer.

I didn't know about the old domestics and the possiblity of getting a different cam -- but to me that must be the truth behind the "factory freak" -- and it certainly would be an unintetnional fluke to put a wildly different cam in a motor just because they ran out of the specified one.

On modern engines, any "freak" would have to be due to either slightly different ECU tunes (as in the early model 2ZZ Celicas) or maybe JDM vs domestic (totally different motors on the 240/Silvias!).

That guy with the Honda - man, I just don't know. If you know him or the people at the shop, it would be interesting to learn more about it.

We need to get Mythbusters on this one

On the Z, I think the major differences will be due to:

1. Even on the same dyno, the ECU needs MORE than 3 pulls to make adjustments that will show gains in power. Plan on 6 runs, not 3 to make sure that bolt on did as advertised.

There is almost no point to making comparisons between runs from different types of dynamometers (e.g., dynopack vs dynojet), but see further here http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/03...ash/index.html

2. These motors burn oil! That could mean if you have an oil burning engine, poor ring sealing, and slight loss of compression, meaning a little less power.

3. VVEL is an untunable (currently) and mysterious thing... there is almost definitely a LOT of adjusting the ECU makes to VVEL depending on ambient conditions and engine load.

Moreover, on the Nismo, I think the map is very different, which is why they tend to make more power with the same mods, even as compared to a tuned non nismo Z.

4. Break in -- some people dyno for baseline well before 5K on the motor. I think that's too early (but would like to here from someone more knowledgeable on break in periods), and I bet compression (and power) will be higher after 5K than before. I'd say 3K at the earliest, but ideally, wait unitl 5K.

5. The gear used during the dyno run. My recommendation is for BOTH AT and MT to dyno in 4th gear even though 5th is 1:1. For rationale and further details, see further here The Effect of Dynoing in Different Gears

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