Nissan 370Z Forum - Explain these numbers: Carrera S vs 370Z

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Cell (Post 720182)

Zaggeron explained it.

Well maybe not filthy rich to own a low end Porsche but even then, the maintenance itself is over priced. You cannot just consider the price of the car. You have to consider the cost of everything else too. Unless you do it yourself for everything then it may be a bit different.

I agree with you about the cost of maintenance, it's a total rip-off. In fact, I could afford a used 08' with low mileage, but it's the cost of maintenance and repairs that puts me off.

But I suppose the dealers have to make their money somewhere, since the Porsche is such a low volume seller.

In addition, their engines do have issues, such as the dreaded IMS failure among others.

But damn it, after driving an 07' Carrera I want to own it, at least for a little while.

I'm thinking of buying a CPO 08' with low mileage and keeping it until the warranty is nearly expired then selling it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by klubbheads (Post 721356)

When the little boy wakes up, he might start spitting on you.

That is so low!

I've been thinking of buying a Z for a while now, but I also see that I could get a low mileage '09 Cayman S in the mid 40's. Figure it'll cost me about 10 grand more for the Porsche. Either way, it would be a very low mileage car so I'm not concerned about oil changes and such.

The downside is finding the right car. It's a lot more difficult to get colors and options right when buying used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micas (Post 721521)

Compare the repair costs of both vehicles and get back to me. Can you afford to maintain a Porsche?

I'm very intrigued by the Cayman S. What and how much are some typical maintenance issues? I would consider a lightly used one. Rather than going to a dealer for maintenance, are there good qualified mechanics/garages who can do the maintenance for signficantly less than the dealer?

What about using a third party shop to do your work. I used to take my out-of-warranty Audi to a third party "exotic" mechanic and they only charged $80/hr. Routine maintenance wasn't terrible at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMCPacer (Post 721568)

You snuck that in while I was typing!

Quote:

Originally Posted by spearfish25 (Post 721569)

Sorry dude, great minds think alike!

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve (Post 721563)

Compare the repair costs of both vehicles and get back to me. Can you afford to maintain a Porsche?

I can afford to buy a 997 turbo with cash.. I'm just trying to be reasonable with the car I'm going to buy, as I am in all things.

As I said, it'll be very low miles, maybe 4k a year at the most, so I'm not concerned with expensive maintenance costs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micas (Post 721580)

I've driven a 2009 Cayman S a couple times. It wasn't on a track or blasting through empty streets, so I can only speak to certain aspects. The whole drivetrain is so buttery smooth it's unbelievable. My next car has to be a flat-six or a V8; no more of this V6 business. Plus it is more compliant puttering around town than the 370Z. It may sound odd but the lack of rearward visibility due to the hatch is even worse in the Cayman than the 370Z. With the engine just behind your seat you definitely feel like you're inside of a cockpit.

The interior seems well constructed, but the materials weren't anything special. I felt it was bland actually, but that's only when compared to the price. Cayman's option up to over $70k quickly and easily get up to the price of a GT-R. I got a NISMO for mid-$30k's, but if you can find the right used Cayman for low-$40k's it'd probably be worth it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve (Post 721563)

Compare the repair costs of both vehicles and get back to me. Can you afford to maintain a Porsche?

I think we need to remember that if he gets an 09 he still has a warranty and like stated before the reliability of the porsche is 8 of 10 and the Z is 6 of 10 so the porsche wont break as much which means the costs will be less. Coming from an Audi the thing that would make a repair high would be the price of the parts if bought thru the dealer. I would get aftermarket parts on the internet way cheaper than OEM, then you do the work yourself or find a good mech you trust that doesnt charge an arm. But I also buy and sell my cars according to warranties.

Tune Up on on an early 911 runs over $1000.00. If you are planning on Diy, you will need to invest in some special Porsche tools.

Anyone wears those button-fly Levys jeans? Those snaps on a Porsche are $20.00 a pop!!!!!

To really apreciate a 911, you must drive it for at least a few days. Test drives don't count.

You can pour a lot of $$ into our Z, but it will never come close to a Porsche. Again, apples and oranges.

Me? I love my Z......but I am also keeping my 911s. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuTinmuch (Post 719023)

I love how women are objectified as prizes to be won when you drive up in a car. Car forums are literally the best.

Just wait until you learn the D.E.N.N.I.S system haha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by corbin09 (Post 721190)

I read up to the 7th page, and I cant believe no one brought this up! I have owned over 20 cars from all over the world. Now I quoted to make a quick point. I have bought a number of cell phones as well. I have had 4 apple I phones. I now currently have a Droid, and I will be switching back to the Iphone within the next few weeks.

My reasoning behind this is, When there is a problem with my droid, they send me a phone number and have me call someone to discuss and it never gets resolved.

This reminds me of Nissan, I have had my car in the service Dept for a bad throw out bearing and other various things. Every time they told me that the symptom is "normal". Customer service is shoddy, and I even was told by my SALES person, that he gave me a key when I had the IOu for one, then he proceeded to call me a liar to his manager.

When I drove a BMW, Audi, even a corvette, the service department was more than helpful, and would replace parts for even preventative maint. They would make sure all of my concerns were addressed, and even would call me to see if I wanted a car wash.

At apple, When your Iphone is having trouble, You go to a retail location and they will fix it or replace it altogether.

THIS is what people pay for. The service behind the initial purchase.

Really?

Phone repair has everything to do with your carrier and virtually nothing to do with the actual manufactorer. The only reason iPhones are different is because Apple does things in a closed loop. With that said, with Verizon you literally can walk into any Verizon store and say "****'s broken" and they will hand you a new phone provided you are legit.

Also judging an entire brand based on one service experience is pretty hilarious to me. Including family, friends and myself there is literally only one dealership that we've ever had a positive experience with, ever.

Quote:

Just wait until you learn the D.E.N.N.I.S system haha.

At the risk of derailing this thread, Always Sunny is terrible. :p

edit: also seriously who cares about any of this? buy a car, drive it, have fun
begin to ask yourself the question that is under my name.

Yes, Really.
People pay for a service that is extended to them after their intial purchase. Maybe my phone analogy was not the best, but as for the Z compared to a Porsche, when it comes to customer service, obviously you get what you pay for. That was simply what I was trying to get across. I have had my car at more than one dealer, and have gotten pretty much the same response.

I am not judging a brand based on a single service experience, I am judging the brand on how I have been treated overall by everyone I have dealt with through my purchase process and throughout the remainder of the time I own the Z.

I cannot understand how you laugh about judging a brand based on a service experience, If the company was legit, they would have process in place to hire service techs and advisors that know what they are doing. I am sure that Porsche has had horror stories as well, but do a little reading around. I can find numerous threads on just this forum that state that a customer has had a less than ideal experience with a Nissan dealer. When a problem arises with Nissan, Instead of finding a way to rectify the problem, they seem more concerned with making the customer aware that it is "normal" or not their problem.

I am not trying to argue, and I somewhat understand where you are coming from as everyone has a varying experience, I am just saying... You do indeed get what you pay for and it is much more than just an hp number, even though we loose in that category as well.

Are the HP numbers from a dyno, or quoted from the manufacturer? I'd look at that.

My old Camaro was rated at 315HP, but it put down 310 at the rear wheels. the Z is rated at 330HP, but puts down 280HP at the wheels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianMSmith (Post 724327)

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what the big deal is between the numbers (say 332 as the mfg claim, and 280 at the dyno). Manufacturers quote their HP ratings as HP at the crank. Add in the "typical" 15% drivetrain loss for a RWD manual, and for the Z, you're looking at 280HP at the wheels. I'm pretty sure you're going to have a similar difference for just about every car, unless the mfg under-rates their crank numbers. (If your Camaro was rated at 315HP by Chevrolet, then they were either giving the wheel HP number (which they don't normally do), or the engine was more like 362HP at the crank. There's no way your Camaro had only 2% drivetrain loss.)

Again, maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure why people are thinking something is "up" with this.

I think the "numbers" have been explained over the course of this thread. Let me summarize.

1. Porsche may understate their HP
2. RWD Rear Engine cars may have less drive train loss
3. Porsches are cool
4. 370zs are cool
5. 370zs with a bunch of mods are faster than 370zs without
6. Porsche 911s with a bunch of mods would be fast too
7. Porsche 911s are expensive
8. 370zs are cheap
9. Some people can afford 911s
10. Some people can't
11. Porsche service is expensive
12. Porsche customer service is good
13. iphone customer service is good
14. Droid customer service is bad
15. Droid customer service is good
16. Porsche aint just any car
17. Girls like Porsches
18. Cougars like 370zs (wait ... that's a different thread)
19. Hookers are cheaper than Porsches
20. The Prius gets better gas mileage than the Mustang 5.0

I think that about covers it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron (Post 725081)

21. Summerization

@nurseryboy, You are missing point 2, though I think that should be

2. RWD Mid-engine cars have significantly less drivetrain loss.

I thought I’ll take a stab at this too!

I thought I’ll just take a stab at this !<o></o>

I think the real issue here is not that the Porsche is not a great car and worth what it is too many.<o></o>
Porsche quality, high standers and branding are legendary! <o>

</o> That being said someone on this forum once said that the "Z" car was all about pricing I agree, I don’t agree :shakes head: with Porsche , Cayman "S" pricing, MSRP: $61,500.00.
<o>
</o> The real question in my humble opinion, is how much better is the Cayman "S"? For example is a Porsche, Cayman "S" $21,500.00 better than a stock 370Z, <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CALEXCA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5 Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><link rel="themeData" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CALEXCA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5 Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"><link rel="colorSchemeMapping" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CALEXCA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5 Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"> <style>  </style> and at the end of the day are you getting $21 500.00 more car?<o></o> IMO the answer is <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CALEXCA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5 Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><link rel="themeData" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CALEXCA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5 Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"><link rel="colorSchemeMapping" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CALEXCA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5 Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"> <style>  </style>a resounding “NO”<o>.

</o> IMO, on any given day a stock “Z” may not win but is capable of given a Cayman “S” a run for it's money, IMHO it will come down to driver talent!<o>:driving:

</o> Now if I just add simple bolt on’s to the equation , even an average driver with an AT will give a Cayman "S" a hard time and a good driver with an MT and less than $3000.00 in bolt on's will equal or surpass it , so where or what did the other $18 grand go on ?<o> :eek:

</o> Simply but Porsche in its existing Cayman line-up can’t justify IMO $21.500.00 different in price.
<o></o>
For that type of money even if it's a losing scenario for the “Z” car vs "Porsche" it’s too close to the Porsche brand.<o>

</o> Unless Porsche can clearly separate and justify for that type of money a much greater gap in performance value that’s on par with that type of money, it will be staring in its rear view mirror as the contender “Z" car catches up!<o></o>

I love both cars!
<o>
</o> Alex <o></o>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elia Cid (Post 725367)

While the Z may be cheaply modified to catch and give the Porsche a hard time, you also risk voiding your warranty and having Nissan giving you even more hell when sh!t hits the fan.

Porsche on the other hand will will still be stock, have better build materials, better paint quality, better customer service and it all comes without modifying it.

In the end the 370z is like the poor mans Porsche.

The enjoyment and excitement IMO of owning a “Z “, are the affordable personal touches and mods making it your own work in progress ,your very own masterpiece on wheels!

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CALEXCA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5 Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><link rel="themeData" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CALEXCA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5 Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"><link rel="colorSchemeMapping" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CALEXCA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5 Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"> <style>  </style>In that case, more than half the folks on this forum are already in hot water with their mods and Nissan dealers :eek:<o>

</o> Like I said I agree with your points on build quality and all , but it just doesn't <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CALEXCA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5 Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><link rel="themeData" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CALEXCA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5 Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"><link rel="colorSchemeMapping" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CALEXCA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5 Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"> <style>  </style> add up in my book, you are just not getting $21 500.00 more or better car than a “Z “,that's nipping on its heels.

Ok maybe 10 grand, even pushing it 15 grand but 21, plus or the price of two base “Z” cars! I think not, sorry!<o>

</o> Wow!! What an awesome poor mans ride!!<o></o>

But like I say, too each his own!<o></o> :tiphat:

Alex <o></o>
<o>
</o>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elia Cid (Post 725802)

I'll be honest, I agree with you 100% that the price difference is unjustifiable.

People that would rather buy a Porsche most likely buy Porsche not only for the performance but also the luxury.

Many of us that drives the 370z don't really care for the luxury, that is why the Porsche is just over priced.

Others have said this before but why compare the Z against anything for speed and performance, dollar for dollar. Heck, buy an old Vega and stuff a 572 in it and hope the Z or any other comparison car doesn't catch you in the turns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IDZRVIT (Post 725822)

Some people just compare numbers posted in magazines. If two cars have the same skidpad rating, then handling must be equivalent, no? Porsche's cost more due it being a complete package, intangibles included.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. We've deviated a bit from my original question which was essentially "why do the Porsche performance numbers trounce the Z's when the specs aren't all that different?" For an answer, suffice to say the engine layout plays a big role in both the 0-60 times and minimizing the drivetrain losses. In both areas, the Z is at a disadvantage.