What is a STOCK 370Z with MT actually putting down?

Daishi · 05-07-2010, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lug

Ever wonder why a 3500 lb mustang with 315 HP can accelerate almost ecactly the same as a 370Z under 3300 with 332 hp?

torque

good primer for those interested....

http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html

not necessarily. Gearing plays a big roll.. Tq is the measure of rotational force on something.. There can be Tq with no movement for example you can push on a building and not move it but your still applying TQ, Without HP there is no movement.. Hp is the measure of work being done over distance and time. The more work being done the faster your car will get down the track. All things equal, Weight, Gearing etc.. The car with more hp will get down the track quicker.In essence hp is what really matters. It all depends on what the vehicle is being used for.

vipor · 05-07-2010, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vipor

Quote:

Originally Posted by shabarivas

That looks like a Subaru tq / hp run

am i right?

Nope, that's my Nismo, bone stock.

MightyBobo · 05-07-2010, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vipor

Nope, that's my Nismo, bone stock.

The point he was making Shab, is that the dyno got a bad read - proving that a dyno is NOT a reliable indicator of power at all.

Lug · 05-07-2010, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daishi

not necessarily. Gearing plays a big roll.. Tq is the measure of rotational force on something.. There can be Tq with no movement for example you can push on a building and not move it but your still applying TQ, Without HP there is no movement.. Hp is the measure of work being done over distance and time. The more work being done the faster your car will get down the track. All things equal, Weight, Gearing etc.. The car with more hp will get down the track quicker.In essence hp is what really matters. It all depends on what the vehicle is being used for.

True, I was assuming "all other things being equal".

vipor · 05-07-2010, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyBobo

The point he was making Shab, is that the dyno got a bad read - proving that a dyno is NOT a reliable indicator of power at all.

The operator had issues getting a good tach read, so my TQ curve over 5250 had spikes. I actually got just over 248TQ.

klubbheads · 05-07-2010, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daishi

not necessarily. Gearing plays a big roll.. Tq is the measure of rotational force on something.. There can be Tq with no movement for example you can push on a building and not move it but your still applying TQ, Without HP there is no movement.. Hp is the measure of work being done over distance and time. The more work being done the faster your car will get down the track. All things equal, Weight, Gearing etc.. The car with more hp will get down the track quicker.In essence hp is what really matters. It all depends on what the vehicle is being used for.

+1. That quote that says TQ wins races is such a BS that is still has validity for some people.

ZKindaGuy · 05-07-2010, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klubbheads

+1. That quote that says TQ wins races is such a BS that is still has validity for some people.

iagree:
The fact that the TQ curve always starts its drop at 5250 RPM's and the engine will be entering into the upper RPM range needed to make its max power ought to be the clue to the TQ lovers that HP is the final force that is in dire need of being present to accelerate the car the remaining distance it is from the finish line as the torque curve begins to drop. At his point the importance of torque is a dimished return in getting to the finish point.

Push370zzz · 05-07-2010, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klubbheads

+1. That quote that says TQ wins races is such a BS that is still has validity for some people.

Torque does win races... Two engines with the same horsepower, one of which producing it at lower RPM value (such as a mercedes or something), would be producing more torque over basically the entire RPM range. Even two cars weighing the same, same gearing, etc... the one with more torque will pull in front!!

klubbheads · 05-07-2010, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smashwebs

Torque does win races... Two engines with the same horsepower, one of which producing it at lower RPM value (such as a mercedes or something), would be producing more torque over basically the entire RPM range. Even two cars weighing the same, same gearing, etc... the one with more torque will pull in front!!

That example that you are talking about is true on the initial acceleration of the car. TQ will allow you to accelerate faster in short period of time (redline is lower). HP will keep you accelerating longer with less force. A car that makes its peak tq from 2000-5500 RPM such as my old 335, had great acceleration at any given RPM but peak power came around 6000rpm even though it redlined at 7k. It was great on low speed races but it was not once you stay get to speeds (higher rev range). The perfect example is the AMG cars VS M5. AMG cars are faster at lower speeds but the M5 smokes most of them anything over 120mph. Why? Because it accelerates for longer period of time with its higher redline. Same example can be used with s2k vs other cars that had twice the tq such as the z33 also ferraris vs lambos. Every manufacturer has its own way of building an engine, its just a matter preference what you are into. Me higher redline and higher peak hp > than bunch of tq and lower rpm peak power.

Both are very important and depend on each other. The thing that will not change is that higher RPM peak power = less tq and vice versa. Again TQ wins races is not an accurate statement.

Push370zzz · 05-07-2010, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klubbheads

That example that you are talking about is true on the initial acceleration of the car. TQ will allow you to accelerate faster in short period of time (redline is lower). HP will keep you accelerating longer with less force. A car that makes its peak tq from 2000-5500 RPM such as my old 335, had great acceleration at any given RPM but peak power came around 6000rpm even though it redlined at 7k. It was great on low speed races but it was not once you stay get to speeds (higher rev range). The perfect example is the AMG cars VS M5. AMG cars are faster at lower speeds but the M5 smokes most of them anything over 120mph. Why? Because it accelerates for longer period of time with its higher redline. Same example can be used with s2k vs other cars that had twice the tq such as the z33 also ferraris vs lambos. Every manufacturer has its own way of building an engine, its just a matter preference what you are into. Me higher redline and higher peak hp > than bunch of tq and lower rpm peak power.

Both are very important and depend on each other. The thing that will not change is that higher RPM peak power = less tq and vice versa. Again TQ wins races is not an accurate statement.

Regardless of if it has more HP or torque, a certain weight requires a constant force to achieve a certain acceleration. The amount of force required to achieve a certain acceleration is a value bound by the laws of physics, and regardless of how much HP or torque the engine is outputting doesn't matter in achieving that. If you want your car to run 11's or 10's or whatever, that requires a certain amount of torque at any engine speed you want to produce the amount of power necessary to propel that vehicle at that rate...

I'm unsure of how either TQ or HP would win a race since HP is a value obtained by calculation of TQ and engine speed. If you have the opportunity of having your engine stretch out the same torque curve over a higher RPM range, then of course you would since it would be producing more HP at the same torque values. So in closing, what argument is it? It's not a battle between HP and TQ, but rather, how highly you can produce that Torque #

shabarivas · 05-07-2010, 09:49 PM

you guys are funny... do you even know what torque is? Torque is force applied over a radius... the ONLY thing torque affects is how quickly you accept change... think inertia of motion. You are sitting at rest and you need to move - the tq you produce tells you how much easier it will be for your system to resist rest (please go brush up on your physics)...

Klubb is absolutely right - when he says that the torque helps out more down low - let me try and explain why...

When your car is traveling 0 or 20 mph (low speeds) your TQ speaks volumes of how quickly you can accelerate... once you get up to 100+ (in most cars) you are only going to be increasing your speed by a few mph per instance (as compared to down low where tq plays a much more significant role)... so your car does not have to overcome rest as much - since its only going from lets say 100-105 compared to like 20-40 (takes about the same time)... up high it all comes down to how much power your car makes.

Torque = r x F = |F|*|r|*sin(theta) where the force being applied is your instantaneous forward force being generated by your engine (it needs to get converted to angular momentum etc etc etc)

"Torque is the static measurement of how much work an engine does, while power is a measure of how fast the work is being done. Since horsepower is calculated from torque, what we are all seeking is the greatest-possible torque value over the broadest-possible rpm range. Horsepower will follow suit, and it will fall in the engine speed range dictated by the many factors that affect the torque curve."

So in essence - these are things that are inter-related HEAVILY - i mean one is simply directly proportional to another (per rpm). Its like asking whats more important? steering wheels? or brakes? LOL... What you CAN infer from a HP / TQ curve is simply how efficiently that engine is making power - take the numbers together - they mean a LOT more...

Push370zzz · 05-07-2010, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shabarivas

you guys are funny... do you even know what torque is? Torque is force applied over a radius... the ONLY thing torque affects is how quickly you accept change... think inertia of motion. You are sitting at rest and you need to move - the tq you produce tells you how much easier it will be for your system to resist rest (please go brush up on your physics)...

Klubb is absolutely right - when he says that the torque helps out more down low - let me try and explain why...

When your car is traveling 0 or 20 mph (low speeds) your TQ speaks volumes of how quickly you can accelerate... once you get up to 100+ (in most cars) you are only going to be increasing your speed by a few mph per instance (as compared to down low where tq plays a much more significant role)... so your car does not have to overcome rest as much - since its only going from lets say 100-105 compared to like 20-40 (takes about the same time)... up high it all comes down to how much power your car makes.

Torque = r x F = |F|*|r|*sin(theta) where the force being applied is your instantaneous forward force being generated by your engine (it needs to get converted to angular momentum etc etc etc)

"Torque is the static measurement of how much work an engine does, while power is a measure of how fast the work is being done. Since horsepower is calculated from torque, what we are all seeking is the greatest-possible torque value over the broadest-possible rpm range. Horsepower will follow suit, and it will fall in the engine speed range dictated by the many factors that affect the torque curve."

So in essence - these are things that are inter-related HEAVILY - i mean one is simply directly proportional to another (per rpm). Its like asking whats more important? steering wheels? or brakes? LOL... What you CAN infer from a HP / TQ curve is simply how efficiently that engine is making power - take the numbers together - they mean a LOT more...

I don't know where we ever didn't acknowledge that...and as an engineering student...I understand the principle of torque quite well. We were just arguing over what is most important in a race, to have more torque or horsepower. I'm pretty sure we agreed that they are both important, and yes, horsepower is more important in higher speeds because it measures how much force it can provide in overcoming air resistance which is basically the limiting factor in car speed.

Push370zzz · 05-07-2010, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klubbheads

That example that you are talking about is true on the initial acceleration of the car. TQ will allow you to accelerate faster in short period of time (redline is lower). HP will keep you accelerating longer with less force. A car that makes its peak tq from 2000-5500 RPM such as my old 335, had great acceleration at any given RPM but peak power came around 6000rpm even though it redlined at 7k. It was great on low speed races but it was not once you stay get to speeds (higher rev range). The perfect example is the AMG cars VS M5. AMG cars are faster at lower speeds but the M5 smokes most of them anything over 120mph. Why? Because it accelerates for longer period of time with its higher redline. Same example can be used with s2k vs other cars that had twice the tq such as the z33 also ferraris vs lambos. Every manufacturer has its own way of building an engine, its just a matter preference what you are into. Me higher redline and higher peak hp > than bunch of tq and lower rpm peak power.

Both are very important and depend on each other. The thing that will not change is that higher RPM peak power = less tq and vice versa. Again TQ wins races is not an accurate statement.

Also hold on...how are you arguing this? I just said two cars, one of which making more torque, assuming everything else equal, the one with more torque will win...lol

klubbheads · 05-08-2010, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smashwebs

Also hold on...how are you arguing this? I just said two cars, one of which making more torque, assuming everything else equal, the one with more torque will win...lol

To answer your question about two identical engines: the one with higher peak HP will win the race. consistent tq throughout the RPM means lower peak HP out put so technically two engines can not be identical except one having more tq.

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05-07-2010, 09:49 PM	#41 (permalink)
shabarivas A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,188 Drives: 370z MB 6mt Rep Power: 914	you guys are funny... do you even know what torque is? Torque is force applied over a radius... the ONLY thing torque affects is how quickly you accept change... think inertia of motion. You are sitting at rest and you need to move - the tq you produce tells you how much easier it will be for your system to resist rest (please go brush up on your physics)... Klubb is absolutely right - when he says that the torque helps out more down low - let me try and explain why... When your car is traveling 0 or 20 mph (low speeds) your TQ speaks volumes of how quickly you can accelerate... once you get up to 100+ (in most cars) you are only going to be increasing your speed by a few mph per instance (as compared to down low where tq plays a much more significant role)... so your car does not have to overcome rest as much - since its only going from lets say 100-105 compared to like 20-40 (takes about the same time)... up high it all comes down to how much power your car makes. Torque = r x F = \|F\|\|r\|sin(theta) where the force being applied is your instantaneous forward force being generated by your engine (it needs to get converted to angular momentum etc etc etc) "Torque is the static measurement of how much work an engine does, while power is a measure of how fast the work is being done. Since horsepower is calculated from torque, what we are all seeking is the greatest-possible torque value over the broadest-possible rpm range. Horsepower will follow suit, and it will fall in the engine speed range dictated by the many factors that affect the torque curve." So in essence - these are things that are inter-related HEAVILY - i mean one is simply directly proportional to another (per rpm). Its like asking whats more important? steering wheels? or brakes? LOL... What you CAN infer from a HP / TQ curve is simply how efficiently that engine is making power - take the numbers together - they mean a LOT more...