370 debate on Camaro board

[Crash]

You're forgetting a VERY important factor in this math: GEARING!

Just because you make the power/tq at the flywheel doesn't mean that you're getting all that to the ground.

The Camaro's final gear is a 3.45 (that's bigger than the non-SS trims which are 3.27). That being said, the Z has 3.64 (I believe) and that's going to increase the amount of torque to the ground for the Z over the Camaro.

Also, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears are on the 6-speed used in the Camaro SS are 3.01, 2.07, and 1.43 (respectively). The ratios will have a lot to do with first gear launching... Keep in mind that the Camaro - weighing in at 3900LBs - will need a very big first gear (like 4.0) to get off the line that fast.

Also, in the twisties, torque is actually a bad thing. They can talk about how the Camaro uses the G8 chassis, but we're still talking about a near 2 ton car with small tires that are likely garbage (since all GM OEM tires lately are garbage) and suspension that will be design for the 1/4 mile. I used to be a GM fanboy and I used to own F-bodies. But I know numbers well too. Fact is that (besides the build quality and crappy interior on the Camaro), the Z will be superior even if the Camaro DOES beat it in the 1/4. If the numbers are that close for the 1/4, than the Camaro doesn't stand a chance against the Z at the GT tracks.

In addition, it will DEFINITELY be a driver's race. I've raced for MANY years and can tell you that it usually comes down to the driver when the numbers are this close.

But for arguments sake, lets run the numbers: (EDITED: GOT THE Z's NUMBERS)

Camaro SS: 408tq * 3.45 * 3.01 = 4236.876 (First gear) <--- Notice the Tq number is corrected here, it is not 424, it's 408.

370z: 270 * 3.794 * 3.692 = 3782.01096 (First gear)

NOW do the math on tq/lbs:

Camaro: 1.09lbstq/1Lbs weight

370z: 1.18lbstq/1Lbs weight

The Z CLEARLY has more torque per pound. But the numbers are still very close and the Camaro has the benefit of a live axle vs. IRS. That being said, it is DEFINITELY a drivers race and will certainly come down to the wire with both cars.

I got my information from:
Nissan 370Z Official Specs Released from Nissan 11.15.08
AND
http://krang.superchevy.com/features...ifications.pdf <--- Assuming that these are correct.

[LiquidZ]

Originally Posted by Crash

You're forgetting a VERY important factor in this math: GEARING!

Just because you make the power/tq at the flywheel doesn't mean that you're getting all that to the ground.

The Camaro's final gear is a 3.45 (that's bigger than the non-SS trims which are 3.27). That being said, the Z has 3.64 (I believe) and that's going to increase the amount of torque to the ground for the Z over the Camaro.

Also, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears are on the 6-speed used in the Camaro SS are 3.01, 2.07, and 1.43 (respectively). The ratios will have a lot to do with first gear launching... Keep in mind that the Camaro - weighing in at 3900LBs - will need a very big first gear (like 4.0) to get off the line that fast.

Also, in the twisties, torque is actually a bad thing. They can talk about how the Camaro uses the G8 chassis, but we're still talking about a near 2 ton car with small tires that are likely garbage (since all GM OEM tires lately are garbage) and suspension that will be design for the 1/4 mile. I used to be a GM fanboy and I used to own F-bodies. But I know numbers well too. Fact is that (besides the build quality and crappy interior on the Camaro), the Z will be superior even if the Camaro DOES beat it in the 1/4. If the numbers are that close for the 1/4, than the Camaro doesn't stand a chance against the Z at the GT tracks.

In addition, it will DEFINITELY be a driver's race. I've raced for MANY years and can tell you that it usually comes down to the driver when the numbers are this close.

But for arguments sake, lets run the numbers: (EDITED: GOT THE Z's NUMBERS)

Camaro: 424tq * 3.45 * 3.01 = 4403.028 (First gear)

370z: 270 * 3.794 * 3.692 = 3782.01096 (First gear)

NOW do the math on tq/lbs:

Camaro: 1.13lbstq/1Lbs weight

370z: 1.18lbstq/1Lbs weight

The Z CLEARLY has more torque per pound. But the numbers are still very close and the Camaro has the benefit of a live axle vs. IRS. That being said, it is DEFINITELY a drivers race and will certainly come down to the wire with both cars.

I got my information from:
Nissan 370Z Official Specs Released from Nissan 11.15.08
AND
http://krang.superchevy.com/features...ifications.pdf <--- Assuming that these are correct.

Camaro has an IRS.

That aside, I do agree about the gearing. People never think about the gearing.

[Crash]

^^^ I also updated the numbers in my last post...

The Camaro finally got IRS!?!? That's lame. The live axle was WAY better for racing.

[Asheth]

Originally Posted by frost

That argument fools you into thinking it's good because it applies logical math, however, this argument assumes that handling is simply based on a power to weight ratio. Admittedly, that's an important aspect but it's not the only aspect. Suspension, balance, steering, reinforcements, length, width, aerodynamics, tire/rime size and etcetera all come into play.

Also, not to split hairs over 4 hp, but it was offically announced Friday that the camaro has 426hp with torque not being mentioned.

One last point as I beat this debate to death, as a former camaro/firebird owner, I can tell you that owning one of those does not put you in a the class of the Z cars. What I mean by that is, my camaro looked exactly the same as the one the trailer park people were driving, the moms trying to keep their youth, and the kids who cheese out those cars. Because of the Zs price-point, you're in a different class with a particular breed of people, and you generally don't have to worry about seeing the cholo with spinners on his Z sitting next to you at a light making your car look less classy.

I think the Z takes the practicality out of consideration. I would say that most but def not all buy American Muscle because it does come with the back seat. If you buy the Z its because thats what you want and you either have another car for passengers or you don't care about passengers lol.

I plan to get one cause I fall in both categories I don't care about passengers and I want one. I hate when my friends try to hop in my Spyder and I have a 2+2 I thought about the G37 but all that would be is one extra passenger cause nobody would get behind me. Though I do not mind the extra trunk space.

[Crash]

Same for me... I have no desire to transport people around. As far as I'm concerned, there is only me when I'm driving. Passengers will never be a consideration in my cars until I have a kid, which isn't for at least 4 years. And even then, I'll still have my "fun" car.

I won't buy another GM product. They're complete garbage when it comes to build quality and they make them poor quality on purpose so they can make more money on warranty work. To me, that's a backwards business model, and it only deter me from buying their cars.

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally Posted by Crash

^^^ I also updated the numbers in my last post...

The Camaro finally got IRS!?!? That's lame. The live axle was WAY better for racing.

What do you mean by IRS and live axle? Which one does the z has?:lezbun:

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally Posted by Crash

You're forgetting a VERY important factor in this math: GEARING!

Just because you make the power/tq at the flywheel doesn't mean that you're getting all that to the ground.

The Camaro's final gear is a 3.45 (that's bigger than the non-SS trims which are 3.27). That being said, the Z has 3.64 (I believe) and that's going to increase the amount of torque to the ground for the Z over the Camaro.

Also, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears are on the 6-speed used in the Camaro SS are 3.01, 2.07, and 1.43 (respectively). The ratios will have a lot to do with first gear launching... Keep in mind that the Camaro - weighing in at 3900LBs - will need a very big first gear (like 4.0) to get off the line that fast.

Also, in the twisties, torque is actually a bad thing. They can talk about how the Camaro uses the G8 chassis, but we're still talking about a near 2 ton car with small tires that are likely garbage (since all GM OEM tires lately are garbage) and suspension that will be design for the 1/4 mile. I used to be a GM fanboy and I used to own F-bodies. But I know numbers well too. Fact is that (besides the build quality and crappy interior on the Camaro), the Z will be superior even if the Camaro DOES beat it in the 1/4. If the numbers are that close for the 1/4, than the Camaro doesn't stand a chance against the Z at the GT tracks.

In addition, it will DEFINITELY be a driver's race. I've raced for MANY years and can tell you that it usually comes down to the driver when the numbers are this close.

But for arguments sake, lets run the numbers: (EDITED: GOT THE Z's NUMBERS)

Camaro SS: 408tq * 3.45 * 3.01 = 4236.876 (First gear) <--- Notice the Tq number is corrected here, it is not 424, it's 408.

370z: 270 * 3.794 * 3.692 = 3782.01096 (First gear)

NOW do the math on tq/lbs:

Camaro: 1.09lbstq/1Lbs weight

370z: 1.18lbstq/1Lbs weight

The Z CLEARLY has more torque per pound. But the numbers are still very close and the Camaro has the benefit of a live axle vs. IRS. That being said, it is DEFINITELY a drivers race and will certainly come down to the wire with both cars.

I got my information from:
Nissan 370Z Official Specs Released from Nissan 11.15.08
AND
http://krang.superchevy.com/features...ifications.pdf <--- Assuming that these are correct.

WoW confusing LOL. You should make that arguement on the 2009 Camaro 2010 Camaro New Camaro forums, news, reviews, wallpapers, pricing - Camaro5.comwebsite. But were talking about street racing. Most non pro race's takes place on the regular streets which is the 1/4 mile. It would of been nice if the z had more TQ. Other than that the car looks amazing:lezbun:

[Crash]

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

You should make that arguement on the 2009 Camaro 2010 Camaro New Camaro forums, news, reviews, wallpapers, pricing - Camaro5.comwebsite. But were talking about street racing.

Not worth my time. I used to own an F-body and I hung out with LOTS of people that owned them. I admit, I was the same way, but these guys are fanboys. They don't want to listen to numbers or reason. If the Z put down the EXACT same power, they'd still argue that the Camaro would win. It's really no use dealing with them. They're pretty hard headed. I'm in Socal Muscle Club and they're all somewhat pissed at me that I'm going with another Z. LOL

Needless to say, I'm not going to waste my time yelling at a wall.

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally Posted by Crash

Not worth my time. I used to own an F-body and I hung out with LOTS of people that owned them. I admit, I was the same way, but these guys are fanboys. They don't want to listen to numbers or reason. If the Z put down the EXACT same power, they'd still argue that the Camaro would win. It's really no use dealing with them. They're pretty hard headed. I'm in Socal Muscle Club and they're all somewhat pissed at me that I'm going with another Z. LOL

Needless to say, I'm not going to waste my time yelling at a wall.

LOL. Yea your right when it comes to fanboys those type of people are not very open minded when it comes to certain things. That's why i don't like fan boys all that much.
I guess we will have to wait and see when the camaro SS comes rolling out and all the car mags starts testing the camaroo!
It would of been nice added touch to have the TQ more closer to the HP right from the factory though.
By the way do you have the new 370Z?
What do you think about the new Stangs?

[CrownR426]

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

LOL. Yea your right when it comes to fanboys those type of people are not very open minded when it comes to certain things. That's why i don't like fan boys all that much.
I guess we will have to wait and see when the camaro SS comes rolling out and all the car mags starts testing the camaroo!
It would of been nice added touch to have the TQ more closer to the HP right from the factory though.
By the way do you have the new 370Z?
What do you think about the new Stangs?

Lol @ the new stangs...

[frost]

Originally Posted by CrownR426

Lol @ the new stangs...

I've been lurking on some mustang forums as we all waited to hear about the 2010 model, and they are all pretty pissed about it. Rustang fanboys are the most die hard people I know, so for them to start talking s- about the stang is a big deal.

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally Posted by frost

I've been lurking on some mustang forums as we all waited to hear about the 2010 model, and they are all pretty pissed about it. Rustang fanboys are the most die hard people I know, so for them to start talking s- about the stang is a big deal.

Why are they all pissy about their poopnies? I think it's the best looking one compared to the previous gens.

I also was shocked to find out that the stinkies were only 5 speed. I always that the cars were 6sp.

[Hypnoz]

Originally Posted by Crash

You're forgetting a VERY important factor in this math: GEARING!

Camaro SS: 408tq * 3.45 * 3.01 = 4236.876 (First gear) <--- Notice the Tq number is corrected here, it is not 424, it's 408.

370z: 270 * 3.794 * 3.692 = 3782.01096 (First gear)

NOW do the math on tq/lbs:

Camaro: 1.09lbstq/1Lbs weight

370z: 1.18lbstq/1Lbs weight

The Z CLEARLY has more torque per pound. But the numbers are still very close and the Camaro has the benefit of a live axle vs. IRS. That being said, it is DEFINITELY a drivers race and will certainly come down to the wire with both cars.

I got my information from:
Nissan 370Z Official Specs Released from Nissan 11.15.08
AND
http://krang.superchevy.com/features...ifications.pdf <--- Assuming that these are correct.

Biggest thing you aren't taking into concideration: real hp/tq from each engine.
Nissan rates the VQ at 332hp/270tq, however dyno's reveal 270whp-290whp.
Chevy rates the LS3 422hp/408tq. However, dyno's reveal 370-390whp

Roughly the Chevy LS3, if rated like Nissan rates the VQ would be rated around 449hp/434tq.

Also what about 2nd and 3rd gears?

And as others have said, the Camaro will have fully independent suspension.

Overall the Z will probably brake better, handle better and have a better interior than the Camaro. If all you car about is straight line speed than go with the Camaro because it's a proven fact that the LS engines respond very very well to mods. The VQ is much harder to extract power from per $$.

[Crash]

^^^ Don't forget about drive train loss and what not. GM drivetrains suck when it comes to keeping power. They're very heavy stock and not very efficient.

But yes, my numbers were for REAL tq. Power can't be messured the same way, unfortunately. There's a completely different math you need to use, however, you can still do the math with BHP.

But I'm sure you know it's not power that wins 1/4 mile races, it's torque. That was my goal, to show how the Z puts down more torque to the wheels per pound that the car weighs than the Camaro. Arguing beyond first gear is pointless because the Camaro will not have a close-ratio transmission. GM gears are always tall. The Z will have short gears up to 5th, so it's a crap shoot since the LSx motors make more torque at lower RPMs.

Yes, I know LSx motors make power very easily with a few little mods here and there. I used to own one. Just an intake, long tubes and a tune would give you 40RWHP with those motors. I'm all about straight line AND the twisties, which is why I made my decision, although, if it I were getting another American car, it'd be the Challenger, not a GM. I will NEVER buy another GM until their environmental and political goals align with mine.

[Hypnoz]

Originally Posted by Crash

^^^ Don't forget about drive train loss and what not. GM drivetrains suck when it comes to keeping power. They're very heavy stock and not very efficient.

But yes, my numbers were for REAL tq. Power can't be messured the same way, unfortunately. There's a completely different math you need to use, however, you can still do the math with BHP.

But I'm sure you know it's not power that wins 1/4 mile races, it's torque. That was my goal, to show how the Z puts down more torque to the wheels per pound that the car weighs than the Camaro. Arguing beyond first gear is pointless because the Camaro will not have a close-ratio transmission. GM gears are always tall. The Z will have short gears up to 5th, so it's a crap shoot since the LSx motors make more torque at lower RPMs.

Yes, I know LSx motors make power very easily with a few little mods here and there. I used to own one. Just an intake, long tubes and a tune would give you 40RWHP with those motors. I'm all about straight line AND the twisties, which is why I made my decision, although, if it I were getting another American car, it'd be the Challenger, not a GM. I will NEVER buy another GM until their environmental and political goals align with mine.

True but since there are wtq numbers available, that already takes drivetrain loss into account. The Z has a decent disadvantage.

Also I agree with your last point. Why would I buy back my own money we're giving to them?

Plus I'd rather have a Z from everything known so far.