TravisJB Journal

travisjb · 10-01-2009, 12:14 AM

Sweet!! looks good to me!!! will be even better with matte black / powder coating

I want lots of input on this... looks ? what do you think about the dimensions and impact on aero ? wondering if we should make it shorter... etc... jump in !

M.Bonanni · 10-01-2009, 09:08 AM

Personally, I dont really think that rear brake ducting will be needed necessarily. I think those scoops might be better used to cool a diff cooler.

They are cool though.

Fathead · 10-01-2009, 10:18 AM

A long as we can use them I will be happy. Diff cooler is a good idea tho.

travisjb · 10-01-2009, 10:40 PM

anyone else care to weigh in on the scoops ?

Zless@arizona · 10-02-2009, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travisjb

anyone else care to weigh in on the scoops ?

I'm too late!

Did you thermocouple the calipers for heat readings, or did you experience rear brake failure/degradation during a race? My point: Do you need brake cooling at the rear?

You asked about aero properties of the scoop...
One can only get accurate/useful data from wind tunnel testing--not even you, travisjb, can afford one hour of wind tunnel session!

Air-dynamics and water-dynamics behave similarly, and I have more experience with water. Bends, angles, and reduction in diameter cause turbulence/resistance. If your scoop and duct exited straight out of the rear deck, there would be little resistance. However, there will be at least one angle in your path to the rear rotors, thus, resistance. If you duct using curves rather than hard angles, the resistance will be less. The smoother the bore of the duct, the less the resistance.

The scoop dimensions appear to be about 1" x 6"--I believe that is a small obstruction relative to the frontal area used for the Cd calculation which I guess is about .35. What is your top speed at the fastest track, and what is the duration of that speed? What is the duration of speed above 80 mph? What is the relation of speed above 100 relative to the rest of the lap? Most aero equipment (includes ram-air) begins being effective at about 80 mph. Have you tested the lpm (litre per minute) of flow at any speed above 80?

My point of the above: Unless you spend a significant amout of time above 80 mph during a lap, and unless you have enough lpm of air reaching the rotors, the scoops might not have any effect.

Then again, you could just put 'em in and use empirical data to determine the duct effectiveness (lower lap times!)

The most important criteria that I have to offer is:
They look cool...so put 'em in!

Fathead: nice cage and scoops!

Travisjb will do 104! <=(subconscious suggestion)

R/S,
Greg!

DannyGT · 10-01-2009, 11:02 PM

I think that came out extremely well done! I just dont know if the rears will need that much cooling. I guess I can agree for it to be for the diff. But an upgraded diff + heat sink fins should also be enough.

Either way - it looks very slick especially for being functional!

travisjb · 10-01-2009, 11:23 PM

thanks Danny...

okay Junior, let's move forward with them !... as I posted on NASA, let's use ~1/2 of driver's side to collect air for rear diff, given expected greater air flow on that side due to differences in planned window fairings

Fathead · 10-02-2009, 09:44 AM

Good post. I was thinking about maby running nascar brake fans to help move more air. Your right we will never know if they are really working well or at all. What about the string test thing? That is wind tunnelish right? After we put them on that could give us a clue as to what they are actualy doing.

Zless@arizona · 10-03-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fathead

Good post. I was thinking about maby running nascar brake fans to help move more air. Your right we will never know if they are really working well or at all. What about the string test thing? That is wind tunnelish right? After we put them on that could give us a clue as to what they are actualy doing.

The strings would only work if you could isolate airflow through the 1 x 6 opening. Any other air flow (such as if the vehicle is moving) will give false readings; any body movement (without air flow) may give false readings. But!...there is almost definitely air movement at the rear brake during a race without the scoops, therefore, the combined effect must be measured. I'm thinking the only way you can measure the effectiveness/need of the rear brake cooling devices is to attach to the caliper an electric pyrometer used for diesel EGT that saves the peak reading. The readings would need to be taken after a full race as the heat buildup is cumulative (one lap is not enough). Lemme see if I can find any EGT setup that would work in this application...

Zless@arizona · 10-03-2009, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zless@arizona

I'm thinking the only way you can measure the effectiveness/need of the rear brake cooling devices is to attach to the caliper an electric pyrometer used for diesel EGT that saves the peak reading. The readings would need to be taken after a full race as the heat buildup is cumulative (one lap is not enough). Lemme see if I can find any EGT setup that would work in this application...

As I keyed the above

I was thinking, "EGT is not going to work here." Then I found this:

High Temperature Infrared Temperature Sensor

These temperature sensors cover ranges up to 1200 Deg.C. The housing is manufactured from aluminium and is supplied in anodised red. This sensor is especially suitable for brake temperature measurement.

£295.00 + Carriage and VAT

Ring +44(0)1451 822458 or 07774 149266 for further details or e-mail Ben Morris

Download .PDF file for full specification
Principle Specification
Maximum calibrated object temperature

Minimum calibrated object temperature

Measurement Distance

Object temperature accuracy

Maximum ambient temperature

Supply Voltage

Field of view

Spot Size

Output
1200 Deg C

Ambient Temperature (Max. 120 Deg.C)

30 - 70 mm

+/- 1%

120 Deg C

5 - 16 Volts DC

14 Deg.

20 mm diameter at 50 mm distance

Non Linear

Here's the url:
Brake Disc Temperature Sensor

Greg

CrownR426 · 10-02-2009, 02:33 PM

Interesting.

imag · 10-03-2009, 07:24 AM

The car is getting epic. I love the cage, and I love all the choices so far. Thanks so much for keeping us all current.

But you're putting on scoops to solve a problem you don't have with no way of telling whether or not they even help? That makes no sense to me. I'm all for functional scoops, but it seems like you're putting the scoops first and the function second. To each his own, but since you asked, I vote no.

Likewise with routing to the diff cooler - the question I would ask is: does it need additional cooling? If not, then all you're doing is screwing up the aerodynamics of the car and pumping air under the body from above, which is a total no-no. The air volume is probably too small to matter, but it just seems kind of silly in such an otherwise well-prepped car.

import111 · 10-03-2009, 01:02 PM

In F1 they use a water based paint type of fluid to see how air flows over different parts of the car. Might be worth a try.

travisjb · 10-03-2009, 03:34 PM

that sensor could be used to log directly on my traqmate I believe... will put some thought into it

good discussion all... these ducts have their trade-offs, but overall i think they will add to the reliability of the car which matters plenty to me... not too mention they will look good!... maybe not the most practical selection I've made, but we're moving forward with them

I like the idea of getting some measurement on the aero impacts... back in the day, had a wind tunnel at my engineering U... now, we're going to have to improvise... the fluid idea is a good one... I also know a few aerodynamicsts that I may check in with

Fathead · 10-03-2009, 07:36 PM

Honestly at the level of racing that we are at I dont think they will have a noticable effect at all. You guys are talking F1 stuff and we are more of a DE type of level. I am not going to post any more pics of the car and cage but here is one scoop almost finished. I think they look bitchen! Super car style.

10-01-2009, 12:14 AM	#1 (permalink)
travisjb A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GSO Posts: 2,803 Drives: VIR Rep Power: 189	Sweet!! looks good to me!!! will be even better with matte black / powder coating I want lots of input on this... looks ? what do you think about the dimensions and impact on aero ? wondering if we should make it shorter... etc... jump in ! __________________ 2009 370Z #104 For Sale

10-01-2009, 09:08 AM	#2 (permalink)
M.Bonanni The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 2,575 Drives: Fast Rep Power: 1321	Personally, I dont really think that rear brake ducting will be needed necessarily. I think those scoops might be better used to cool a diff cooler. They are cool though. __________________ MikeBonanni.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/MikeBonanni Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/MBonanni36 Function > Form

10-01-2009, 10:40 PM	#4 (permalink)
travisjb A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GSO Posts: 2,803 Drives: VIR Rep Power: 189	anyone else care to weigh in on the scoops ? __________________ 2009 370Z #104 For Sale

10-01-2009, 11:02 PM	#6 (permalink)
DannyGT Track Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Jersey Posts: 919 Drives: 370Z (SOLD) Rep Power: 280	I think that came out extremely well done! I just dont know if the rears will need that much cooling. I guess I can agree for it to be for the diff. But an upgraded diff + heat sink fins should also be enough. Either way - it looks very slick especially for being functional! __________________ Performance GTM Stage 1 SC, GTM Res.Test Pipes, Invidia Gemini Exhaust, GTM HD Oil Cooler Wheels & Suspension AME Tracer TM02's 19x9.5F 19x10.5R w/ 265x35F & 305x30R, Hotchkis Sways, BC (BR) Racing Coilovers (Car Sold)

10-01-2009, 11:23 PM	#7 (permalink)
travisjb A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GSO Posts: 2,803 Drives: VIR Rep Power: 189	thanks Danny... okay Junior, let's move forward with them !... as I posted on NASA, let's use ~1/2 of driver's side to collect air for rear diff, given expected greater air flow on that side due to differences in planned window fairings __________________ 2009 370Z #104 For Sale

10-01-2009, 10:18 AM	#3 (permalink)
Fathead Base Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 62 Drives: Chevy Trucks Rep Power: 16	A long as we can use them I will be happy. Diff cooler is a good idea tho.

10-02-2009, 09:44 AM	#8 (permalink)
Fathead Base Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 62 Drives: Chevy Trucks Rep Power: 16	Good post. I was thinking about maby running nascar brake fans to help move more air. Your right we will never know if they are really working well or at all. What about the string test thing? That is wind tunnelish right? After we put them on that could give us a clue as to what they are actualy doing.

10-02-2009, 02:33 PM	#11 (permalink)
CrownR426 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: South Korea Posts: 4,676 Drives: Manual Rep Power: 848	Interesting. __________________ Love + Hardwork + Passion RIP SVTRacer

10-03-2009, 07:24 AM	#12 (permalink)
imag Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 446 Drives: up the wall Rep Power: 17	The car is getting epic. I love the cage, and I love all the choices so far. Thanks so much for keeping us all current. But you're putting on scoops to solve a problem you don't have with no way of telling whether or not they even help? That makes no sense to me. I'm all for functional scoops, but it seems like you're putting the scoops first and the function second. To each his own, but since you asked, I vote no. Likewise with routing to the diff cooler - the question I would ask is: does it need additional cooling? If not, then all you're doing is screwing up the aerodynamics of the car and pumping air under the body from above, which is a total no-no. The air volume is probably too small to matter, but it just seems kind of silly in such an otherwise well-prepped car.

10-03-2009, 01:02 PM	#13 (permalink)
import111 Track Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ. Posts: 622 Drives: 09 Nissan 370Z Rep Power: 192	In F1 they use a water based paint type of fluid to see how air flows over different parts of the car. Might be worth a try.

10-03-2009, 03:34 PM	#14 (permalink)
travisjb A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GSO Posts: 2,803 Drives: VIR Rep Power: 189	that sensor could be used to log directly on my traqmate I believe... will put some thought into it good discussion all... these ducts have their trade-offs, but overall i think they will add to the reliability of the car which matters plenty to me... not too mention they will look good!... maybe not the most practical selection I've made, but we're moving forward with them I like the idea of getting some measurement on the aero impacts... back in the day, had a wind tunnel at my engineering U... now, we're going to have to improvise... the fluid idea is a good one... I also know a few aerodynamicsts that I may check in with __________________ 2009 370Z #104 For Sale Last edited by travisjb; 10-03-2009 at 03:37 PM.

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