OEM Hood v Seibon TS Testing
 

I have an opportunity, before putting on a Seibon TS hood, to run some cipher logs and collect some data. I would like to do this for comparison for members looking for what results can or cannot be achieved when adding a vented hood to their car. Also looking for suggestions on what people want logged so everything can be covered.

My question is what specific units would you guys wanted recorded?
-Oil temp
-Water temp
-IAT
-Ambient temp (Can cipher do this one?)
-Others?

My plan is to get some solid logs in under different conditions.
-Traffic driving
-Hot temps, then idle for 5 minutes
-Morning commute (usually no traffic and temps in the 70-80)
-Others?

My car for testing:
-2009 6MT 370z with Stage 1 GTM SC
-CSF radiator & 25 row oil cooler
-Stock header & cats with F.I. exhaust
-Coupe front bumper
-No fender ventilation currently

That sounds about right. Make sure you test with AC on and off.

Hmmmm.

Coolant and Oil temps would be nice to know, I'm sure you'll see drops at speed just because of increased airflow.

What I'd really like to know is actual under-hood temps from various places in the engine bay.

For instance, on top of the intake manifold, in the Brake / Clutch MC area (how much heat soaks through the inner firewall into that compartment before and after), etc.

Hard to log those automatically without a dedicated setup though.

Yeah, maybe get a heat gun thing and when I run it up, stop really quick, pop the hood and measure temps? Not going to be perfectly accurate but might get close.

This?

Lab Thermocouple Temperature Chart Recorder Data Logger Computer PC with Alarm | eBay

That works, I was thinking of those heat gun temp readers you can get at home improvement stores. You just shoot it at a target and it measures the temp, my father has one but he said it was cheap and only reads up to like 200ish degrees.

This: http://www.amazon.com/Temperature-In.../dp/B002YE3FS4

Yeah, i knew what you meant, was just offering a cheap solution that would actually datalog.

There are others sold by that same person that have multiple channels and don't really cost a lot more.

That's what I would do, get a 3 or 4 channel one and run those bitches all over my engine bay, then you can build an accurate model of before and after the hood.

Just use the car's reported ambient temp, subtract the ambient from whatever the under hood readings are and you'll have a (sloppily) normalized measure to compare before and after.

(since you're going to have your laptop doing Cipher anyway)

(also, you can log from the Rom Editor program as well if you have a Cipher cable, its logging capabilities are quite a bit better, IMO)

Might look into this, so it can log the data and I can download later?
It says on the page it just plugs in and reads out temps, so want to make sure I can run it under the hood & download at a later time.

I was reading this the other day, that Uprev is actually moving away from Cipher and saying to use the ROM editor for data logging now. Had not gotten to try it so will give it a test today.

It requires a laptop. It runs software on the laptop to record and save the data.

I figured it was acceptable since you're going to run ECU logging anyway. There are stand-alone units that are cheap as well, have to find them, gimmie a minute.

Yeah if you have a flashed ROM, use the ROM Editor, it's much better. It will give you a lot more detailed info on what's going on with the car.

Cipher works even with stock ECUs, so it still has its' purpose (and has those "gauges" it can do, which I have never used).

Ah, ok. Time to use the ROM editor from now on then for data logging.
Does it still save it out as a CSV file?

6 Point Temperature Indicator

Maybe something like this?

Yeah you can save it to a CSV.

Awesome, one of my ideas was to do some graph overlays if there was much difference for people to see. Instead of starring at columns of numbers.

:rock:

a lot of people on this forum are suckers for a sweet graph overlay :yum: :tup:

Yeah, I did it for the boosted finished builds and it really showed who was maximizing their build versus just turning up the boost for higher numbers.

I am very interested to see the results for this, although I use the AMS hood.

I would say most vented hood that look similar to the Seibon TS will have similar results. Some hoods have larger vents, which might help more at idle or speed. If I could get people who had other hoods together for a weekend, I would honestly consider testing them all. Slap on an OEM hood for a baseline and then the aftermarket hood and repeat tests.

infrared thermometer is what you were thinking, i picked up the harbor freight one years ago (yes it still works) and it has a laser pointer that is fun to play with and it reads within about 5 deg depending. IR thermometers don't like shiny or transparent materials tho. tried to measure the temp of a chromed friction roller at work and i know it it was second degree burns hot but gun said it was 81 degrees (the $750 company one said it was 83.6) and it only cost me $35 on sale.

First log done last week, just got around to editing it.
Also, the fat wavy line on the oil temp is because my temps have been 'bouncing' around lately. I originally thought it was the gauge going bad but the OBD2 sensor and uprev both read it this way. I have added a red line above it to show the actual change in oil temp in a more usable readout.

Details
First graph:
-Morning cold start, around 6:00AM
-About a 20 mile drive with little to no traffic, almost all freeway, speed kept above 70MPH
-Ambient temps were between 80-86 degrees
-The point where the rad fans kick on is when I was exiting off a freeway, sat in a right turn lane for 2-3 minutes and then got back onto another freeway

Peak numbers:
-Engine oil 192°F
-Fuel temp 95°F
-Intake temp 95°F
-Coolant temp 210°F

Engine off numbers:
-Engine oil 190°F
-Fuel temp 95°F
-Intake temp 90°F
-Coolant temp 203°F



Second graph:
-This is after a 10 minute idle with the engine shut off from the above drive
-Followed by a short 3-4 minute drive to see how the engine will cool off
-Speed kept under 30mph

Engine on numbers:
-Engine oil 172°F
-Fuel temp 97°F
-Intake temp 120°
-Coolant temp 208°

Lowest numbers:
-Engine oil 160°F
-Fuel temp 97°F
-Intake temp 118°F
-Coolant temp 203°F

This is the stock hood graphs, right?

More data is always useful, but I think the most important differential is going to be coolant temps. If the hood vents are working correctly, airflow through the radiator should increase substantially (both stopped with rad fans on, and especially at cruising speeds) from the pressure relief behind the fans, and that should in turn show up in the coolant temp graphs pretty noticeably.

Knowing how good flow affects everything else related to bay heat and all that would be nice, but if the coolant temp drops you know you're moving things in the right direction and the rest is just details.

Sorry yes, this is all OEM hood for right now. I have the Seibon TS hood, but waiting to paint & install it for now.

My curiosity is pegged on the drive in 95+ degree weather for 20-30 minutes and then shut it down and idle for 10 minutes and then check the temps. This happens to me a lot, drive around, go into a store and come back out, water temps will go from 205 to 225 while just sitting for a bit.

maybe since theres no air moving thru the radiator then the water/antifreeze in it is just soaking up the heat from the radiators metal..... maybe?:confused:

Is this with making no changes at all to fan profile? Just curious.

I'm playing with my fan tables to try and min/max coolant an oil temps. Mostly, I don't want too much fan keeping the oil from coming up to temp (and keeping me in the 'cold' fuel tables) and I don't want too little so that coolant doesn't get enough flow... yeehaw.

That is what I am assuming is happening, my hope is with an open hood design we see the ambient temps are able to drop around the engine allow some air flow even while the car is sitting.
This will allow hotter air to get away from the car and bring fresh/cooler air to the radiator keeping temps down without creating heat soak.

I am not 100% sure on that answer unfortunately, Sam has told me my tables were modified but my tune is from 2010 when my SC was installed and the fan controls were not open until 2011/2012. Also I do not have a copy of my tune to review, so my hope is when I get a retune in early Sept we can review my current tune and see what was done or not done.

The coolant temp sensor isn't in the radiator.

More than likely, it's the block heating the water while it sits.

Matt, when you let it sit like that, try this:

1) Start engine, let it idle for 10 seconds or so (assuming oil is hot)
2) Note water temp
3) Rev the engine freely to 4K 3 or 4 times.
4) Note water temp

You should see a sharp drop in the reported water temp after just revving it a few times (spinning up the water pump).

Seems to me that in the VQ platform (or at least, the HR and VHR versions) they learned their lessons from the older engines (RB, VG and SR) and made the water pump a low-flow per RPM design with only 5 or 6 vanes on the wheel. This means you have to put some revs on the engine to get the water to circulate fast enough to see an accurate water temp, but also means it doesn't cavitate at high RPM.

For example of the design differences I mean:

OEM RB water pump:

N1 RB water pump:


I know this is a bit off topic, but it's something I've done some research in to literally in the last two weeks, so I thought I'd share.

So I remember I decided to log a ran/fan duty cycle once to see if this was ever changed, had to find it.
Using this image from the coolant fan speed thread, this is the OEM setup:


My logs follow it down to the t, at 214 I can see it go from 0% to 55% and so on as the log jumps to 219 degrees and the duty cycle hit 85%, never got to 221 but I have seen it before and I could hear the fans pumping!

So I would say I am using the stock OEM fan duty cycle, and shovel, I have noticed when I turn the car over from off, and start to back out or move the intake temp & water temp drop about 2 degrees usually.

To add to this, I am going to say my TS hood will not be on prior to getting my new tune (adjusting fan speeds) so this will give a nice comparison also on what the fan speed change will do to our car.

I've never bothered to log duty cycle (until today, let me weed through the log I made on my lunch break) but damn, that's distressing.

See, I thought that it would extrapolate between data points like it does on other tables. Looks like it just follows the values you enter exactly... which makes it a damned chunky table.

Since we are talking about it, here is the simple log I did about a month ago.
Where the vertical blue line is, in case you cannot read the numbers:
-Coolant temp 215.6°F
-Intake air temp 124°F
-Rad/fan duty 55%

The red line jumps up again after the vertical blue line from 215ish to 219 but the rad/fan cycle does not change until it gets to the top above 217 degrees. So yes, it is very much a, target must equal value or it does not change.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-D...%2520Cycle.JPG

Yeah, you're definitely right.

I just correlated it with my log from today:

http://www.the370z.com/attachment.ph...1&d=1376939911

http://www.the370z.com/attachment.ph...1&d=1376940033

Since it isn't extrapolating between data points, I'm gonna change 160 to 185 and give it a 30-35% or so, since that's (about) where the t-stat is opening.

Now my question is, to those who tinker with Uprev more than I do, would it be possible to generate new columns to allow a more gradual change in speed? Since we can change the values to anything we can, would be nice to have a larger file so it is not just x = y but more of a gradual increase.

I would imagine the count of the columns and the temps of those columns aren't something UpRev can change easily, just the values within.

Only Uprev/Nissan can change the number of columns unfortunately.

It's pretty rare that the column count changes, but it has happened a couple of times.

I don't expect that they will be making any effort to change the column count for fan control tho :-/

You can't edit the first column but you can use the other three.

In your situation, I would run a 180/190/200 table and have 30%/60%/100% unless you get into oil temp issues.

(I don't know how physically coupled your oil cooler is to your radiator, so I don't know how much fan speed affects it. Mine is in complete contact with and sealed to my radiator, so fan speed directly effects its' efficiency.)

This, basically.

http://www.the370z.com/attachment.ph...1&d=1376940901

That said, if you still have the stock radiator, I don't know that all the fan in the world will get back under 200F if you're really giving it the beans, but I'd at least flog them into trying. The car definitely likes being between 185 and 200 degrees.