Nissan 370Z Forum - 370z Forced Induction for Noobs...

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Nissan 370Z Forum (http://www.the370z.com/)

- Forced Induction (http://www.the370z.com/forced-induction/)

- - 370z Forced Induction for Noobs... (http://www.the370z.com/forced-induction/68244-370z-forced-induction-noobs.html)

Boosted Performance

01-16-2014 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370 (Post 2653693)

I posted this in another thread but it should be here too. An explanation of why headers and superchargers don't agree with each other. In a naturally aspirated engine with stock exhaust, the valve overlap on the engine allows the exhaust volume moving out of the head to scavenge the cylinder better allowing a greater intake volume to be pulled into the cylinder, it is timed up so that the valve closes before the intake charge begins to leave the exhaust valve. When you put headers on an NA car you improve the scavenging of the exhaust improving the intake charge to the point that just a little intake volume goes into the exhaust before the valve closes but the cylinder is filled with more intake charge regardless so it makes more power. On a supercharged car the intake charge is pressurized so that once the exhaust has vented enough that the cylinder pressure is equal to the intake pressure intake charge begins to flood out the exhaust valve long before it is closed, with a restrictor like a factory cat, or running a smaller exhaust diameter(2-2.5") with test pipes you allow manifold pressure to rise right at the critical point where the intake charge would over pressure the cylinder and flood out the open exhaust valve so the manifold back pressure holds the charge in.

This has been true for long before the 370z even came out, every supercharger kit manufacturer will warn about headers causing a loss in boost pressure, the fact is with a supercharger and the locked in cam timing the Z will make more power per cfm pumped into the engine with a restrictive exhaust. headers plus cam timing the way it is the engine wastes a large percentage of intake charge, so the header manufacturer tells you to get a bigger blower so that even though 10% of the intake charge is flying out the exhaust you will get your power back by shoving more in. The supercharger manufacturer tells you to put a more restrictive exhaust on the car so you waste less and get more pressure and power for the amount you spin the charger. In the end the both do the same thing you just have to pick whether you want headers and a more wasteful setup or a smaller setup that's more efficient.

Now if you can change the valve timing, grab your self some headers and turn the overlap down and enjoy the best of both worlds. Like I said none of this is new it's neither companies fault it's just the way it is, thats why back in the 60's a thing called a blower cam was invented.

Sorry to say it, but this is kind of backwards. Without getting in to too much detail (it is too late for an old man like me), you will loose boost pressure by opening up your exhaust, that is true. However, you will gain power due to efficiently scavenging all the exhaust gases out of your combustion chamber. This will allow you to run cooler, and advance timing therefore making more power.

On a more common platform that uses supercharges such as Ford Mustangs, the upgrade to LTH and a free flowing exhaust will cause a 2psi drop, but at the same time will cause a 10-15whp increase, especially in the top end.

Remember, boost pressure is resistance to flow.

1slow370

01-16-2014 02:34 AM

My note is more application specific that is why it is in the 370z FI for noobs not the other FI for noobs. That is exactly what happens on the Z. Yes a free flowing exhaust does increase scavenging but on our cars the cam timing and duration cause this to happen. What you say about muffstains is true I have seen that, but as for camming on the mustang the overlap is much less aggressive and the head flows like **** to start with so it is a totally different platform. And the reason turbos don't run into this issue on our cars is one turbo's generate the back pressure to keep the boost in the motor and they do it proportionally to the amount of intake pressure so that as boost pressure rises so does back pressure(that is main reason manifold temp and pressure skyrocket on a turbo car and egt's become that much more important), and two the turbo will spool up to the set boost pressure regardless of head flow. Boost pressure is pressure in the intake pipe nothing more nothing less, so wether you are losing two psi because the cylinder is scavenged better and needs more intake charge to fill or you lose 2 psi because it blows right out the exhaust valve the gauge is still gonna read 2psi lost but the dyno will show the difference. SOOOO sorry to say this but while your statement is grounded in truth and i acknowledge that, it does not work on our application, I even stated it in a for noobs way at the end of my post, you fix the valve overlap and you can get the better scavenging of the LTH's without wasting the intake charge by blowing out the exhaust.

Subnote:The cams in the 370z are pretty much optimal for it's NA size and use thats why jun needed to go .030 over and bump the compression to get a big result out of theirs this means that a F.I. longtube which pretty much taps the car out NA, has way to much flow for the cams overlap and lift for the engines bore size and leads to boost wasting

Va_gunguy

01-26-2014 03:14 PM

This is just the info I was looking for! However from a maintenance point of view which is easier to take care of over the long run. Supercharger or turbo? or would they both be about the same?

1slow370

01-26-2014 05:58 PM

the superchargers are usually lower maintenance because the kits are simpler and are less stressful on the engine when work needs to be done it is usually easier to take the supercharger kit apart to do the work. also because of the temperatures involved and the internal lubrication supercharger units themselves are less prone to failure

elperuano

01-26-2014 06:19 PM

BP kit would make maintenance very simple as well.

theDreamer

01-27-2014 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Va_gunguy (Post 2667418)

This is just the info I was looking for! However from a maintenance point of view which is easier to take care of over the long run. Supercharger or turbo? or would they both be about the same?

SC requirements, for GTM, are as followed.
Belt, SC fluid, SC filter, intake filter every 50,000 miles

I snapped a belt at 25,000 miles and just passed 50,000 miles overall with my SC kit and doing all the above including the belt again (already has cracks). After this change over I will be dropping my interval down to 25-30k miles instead. Overall the materials will run you $250-300 and can mostly be done yourself or a good shop can do it in a couple hours tops.

JWillis72

01-27-2014 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theDreamer (Post 2668077)

Stillen SC is fluid at 2,500 the first time then 7,500 after that. I'm not sure about the belt.

Va_gunguy

02-06-2014 07:46 PM

Thanks. Definitely helps my decision

carlitos_370z

02-21-2014 08:42 AM

awesome thread!!!

NoLaKrewe

08-12-2014 08:44 PM

Let me ask this question as I am a noobie and been doing a lot of research. I don't own a Z yet but I pre plan builds before buying my car. With this said, I plan to autocross with the car a lot and I also do love a nice straightway get up and go. I've been doing a lot of reading on these threads but I still never get a clear answer.

So for a 60/40 interest split. 60 being autocross and 40 straightway speed. What is the best option in terms of FI. I know TT is the better in terms of Turbo for what I want but I never see too many people factor in super chargers. What are they best for?

370zrider

10-07-2014 11:28 AM

From what I've read here, when you install a turbo kit without BOOST CONTROLLER you can only have like 6psi but when you get one installed you may go like 10psi or further… is this right?

.

jwick

10-07-2014 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370zrider (Post 2991894)

From what I've read here, when you install a turbo kit without BOOST CONTROLLER you can only have like 6psi but when you get one installed you may go like 10psi or further… is this right?

.

No. Boost pressure is based on the wastegate spring you are running. You can have either internal or external wastegates. I'm going to ignore internal because I don't like them, and I'm running external. Your external wastegates are going to come with a bunch of different springs that you can mix and match to get you to the desired boost level. A boost controller allows you to run a set additional amount of boost on top of the wastegate level. As for how much additional you can run it varies depending on if you have a manual or electronic boost control. All the electronic boost controllers I know of limit you to adding 100% of wastegate pressure, so if you have a 6lb spring the max you can run with boost control would be 12lbs. I've never run a manual but I don't believe they have the same restriction.

theDreamer

04-02-2015 11:02 AM

Updated a few things, GTM items have all been moved to an 'out of business' section but details are still available.

If there are new details people would like added please share.

Edit: Also added AAM's kit as I realized I never put all the details for them in this thread.

SDatl404

05-13-2015 09:04 AM

Does boost break parts often?

Just curious what everyday hard driving would do to reliability when boosted. Like transmission, rear end, driveshaft, ect. Can you still drive the car hard or is it going to pop something when you turn the boost up? :driving::tiphat:

jwick

05-13-2015 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDatl404 (Post 3196764)

All depends on power level. The OEM drivetrain seems to be able to handle normal boosted (~500-600whp with proper fuel and tuning) without any major issues. It's likely that, from 'hard' driving, it's the motor that is likely to let go first.

My tuner did blow out a rear diff but it was on an E85 tune with over 600whp and coilover/chamber settings to make it hook-up.

Things can still break as you are talking about boosting a factory NA car, but this platform has shown it likes boost:tup:

TerribleONE

05-13-2015 09:11 AM

I have about 5k miles of hard driving on mine with no issues except that my face hurts from smiling so much.

jwick

05-13-2015 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerribleONE (Post 3196770)

I have about 5k miles of hard driving on mine with no issues except that my face hurts from smiling so much.

:iagree:

I'm at about that many miles and mine is a garage toy. It only comes out when it's time to play.

SDatl404

05-13-2015 09:14 AM

Thanks for the info. I want to boost. Nothing crazy maybe 500 rwhp, but I was worried about the car grenading if I wanted to do some spirited driving on a road trip. :tiphat:

jwick

05-13-2015 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDatl404 (Post 3196773)

Thanks for the info. I want to boost. Nothing crazy maybe 500 rwhp, but I was worried about the car grenading if I wanted to do some spirited driving on a road trip. :tiphat:

Do your research and buy a good kit. Have it installed by a good shop and make sure you have a quality tune. If you do that then it should be reasonably reliable.

But always keep an 'oh shit' fund handy as you boost a NA car and you are always playing with fire.

JARblue

05-13-2015 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDatl404 (Post 3196773)

Thanks for the info. I want to boost. Nothing crazy maybe 500 rwhp, but I was worried about the car grenading if I wanted to do some spirited driving on a road trip. :tiphat:

Boosted cars seem to go boom earlier for people that don't really know what they're getting into. I'm going to guess by your questions, that you have no intentions of DIYing this project and haven't boosted a car before. Don't cut corners with your shop. Be prepared to throw $10K at least into the project and have enough funds set aside for when something does go wrong. Proper maintenance and regular inspection of whatever FI system you choose is extremely important.

Fast Intentions makes some good points in a thread specifically regarding maintenance and longevity of their TT kit. There are a number of other threads (including ones stickied in the FI section) that you should read up on before moving forward.

http://www.the370z.com/forced-induct...ml#post3190597

jwick

05-13-2015 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JARblue (Post 3196785)

Boosted cars seem to go boom earlier for people that don't really know what they're getting into. I'm going to guess by your questions, that you have no intentions of DIYing this project and haven't boosted a car before. Don't cut corners with your shop. Be prepared to throw $10K at least into the project and have enough funds set aside for when something does go wrong. Proper maintenance and regular inspection of whatever FI system you choose is extremely important.

Fast Intentions makes some good points in a thread specifically regarding maintenance and longevity of their TT kit. There are a number of other threads (including ones stickied in the FI section) that you should read up on before moving forward.

http://www.the370z.com/forced-induct...ml#post3190597

That number is more like $15-20k if you plan to do it correctly.

TerribleONE

05-13-2015 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwick (Post 3196793)

That number is more like $15-20k if you plan to do it correctly.

:iagree:

Install and a quality tune are the most important things when boosting a car that came NA from the factory.

SDatl404

05-13-2015 09:34 AM

I've got plenty of experience modifying cars, just not 370s which is why I asked for insight from the community. I don't want to boost the car if the driveline is fragile. I love the 370z. Super fun car, but more power is always welcome if it can be done without affecting reliability or forcing me to change the way I drive my car.

theDreamer

05-13-2015 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDatl404 (Post 3196764)

I will also add that boost will not be the 1st thing to destroy your car it will be denotation. A bad tune on a great kit & perfect supporting mods will destroy your car faster than anything.
Additionally, we have people who are putting hard miles on their cars with high power.

DJTodd: Link Is a track ready car with a twin turbo kit making some great strides
Phunk: Link Over 60k miles on a twin turbo kit and e85 who was pushing the 1/4 mile limits, what broke the car was the clutch/CSC at the drag strip.
My own car was at 70k miles with boost when my SC seized from a fluid leak and the rest of the car was running great. Engine is still fine even after this event, so now has given me my reason for upgrades!!

I can keep going on more cars from Fast Intentions, AAM, even GTM kits are still running strong on many cars, BP's kits are doing well. It comes down to going in with the right mindset and money.

TerribleONE

05-13-2015 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDatl404 (Post 3196798)

I've got plenty of experience modifying cars, just not 370s which is why I asked for insight from the community. I don't want to boost the car if the driveline is fragile. I love the 370z. Super fun car, but more power is always welcome if I can be done without affecting reliability or forcing me to change the way I drive my car.

There is always the chance that something can go wrong, however a lot of us have had nothing but positive experiences. Stay up on your fluid changes and you should be good to go. My car doesn't leave the garage for anything but "spirited" runs :driving:

JARblue

05-13-2015 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDatl404 (Post 3196798)

Do you have experience boosting a NA car? That's probably the key experience you would want.. As mentioned, a number of people are going strong on FI, and those that have had problems are typically due to the tune.

The Z bones are fairly strong. 7AT is pretty much the weak point; 6MT less so but still needs new CSC and clutch to handle FI. Motor is pretty stout to a certain point. A lot of the supporting mods are for cooling purposes. The Z likes to run hot even when NA, so it's important that cooling is a priority when boosting.

KratikosG37

05-13-2015 09:48 AM

Like I said before, "it's a gamble". That's why I suggested not to DD your boosted VQ. I have about 15k boosted, and 5 to 6k hard miles. Had 0 issues, but that's not say I won't ever have issues. Could blow the engine, trans, or what ever else next week.

Driving hard 24/7 isn't ideal for any weekend warrior, must less for a DD. You have to have a contingency plan. I would call Z1 or what ever shop you feel comfortable with for a quote on a engine built, trans, rear end, and what ever else you think make break.
Have that savings stacked up that way if something blows you can get it fixed ASAP.

Just like that G37 I told some people around in a different thread. He made a TT VQ a DD and blew the trans 2 weeks later. Making 40 to 140mhp pulls, which the new owner had no one to blame but himself. 4k in trans work just like that, nothing you can do.

If you going to beat up a DD boosted VQ, I suggest running it at a passive 6 psi. Which what Im going to do when I start tracking it. Yes you will have less power, yes other people will be fast, but at least you have less chance in spending 20K plus in repairs, and to me that's a much better win than beating the person next you.

1LIFE

05-13-2015 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerribleONE (Post 3196770)

I have about 5k miles of hard driving on mine with no issues except that my face hurts from smiling so much.

This :iagree:
Boost it.. Drive the hell out of it.. If it breaks fix it..

KratikosG37

05-13-2015 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theDreamer (Post 3196799)

I will also add that boost will not be the 1st thing to destroy your car it will be denotation. A bad tune on a great kit & perfect supporting mods will destroy your car faster than anything.
Additionally, we have people who are putting hard miles on their cars with high power.

DJTodd: Link Is a track ready car with a twin turbo kit making some great strides
Phunk: Link Over 60k miles on a twin turbo kit and e85 who was pushing the 1/4 mile limits, what broke the car was the clutch/CSC at the drag strip.
My own car was at 70k miles with boost when my SC seized from a fluid leak and the rest of the car was running great. Engine is still fine even after this event, so now has given me my reason for upgrades!!

I can keep going on more cars from Fast Intentions, AAM, even GTM kits are still running strong on many cars, BP's kits are doing well. It comes down to going in with the right mindset and money.

:iagree:
Bad tunes on good fuel :eek:
Good tune on bad fuel :eek:

Good tune on good fuel :ugh2: (things can still go wrong)

Make sure your tune is done right that's everything.;)

TerribleONE

05-13-2015 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kratikosg37 (Post 3196822)

like i said before, "it's a gamble". That's why i suggested not to dd your boosted vq. I have about 15k boosted, and 5 to 6k hard miles. Had 0 issues, but that's not say i won't ever have issues. Could blow the engine, trans, or what ever else next week.

Driving hard 24/7 isn't ideal for any weekend warrior, must less for a dd. You have to have a contingency plan. I would call z1 or what ever shop you feel comfortable with for a quote on a engine built, trans, rear end, and what ever else you think make break.
Have that savings stacked up that way if something blows you can get it fixed asap.

Just like that g37 i told some people around in a different thread. he made a tt vq a dd and blew the trans 2 weeks later. Making 40 to 140mhp pulls, which the new owner had no one to blame but himself. 4k in trans work just like that, nothing you can do.

if you going to beat up a dd boosted vq, i suggest running it at a passive 6 psi. Which what im going to do when i start tracking it. Yes you will have less power, yes other people will be fast, but at least you have less chance in spending 20k plus in repairs, and to me that's a much better win than beating the person next you.

6mt???

Driftomodachi

05-13-2015 11:33 AM

Over build the motor (pistons/rings/rods/bearings), over build the clutch, only boost up to 80% capacity, make sure boost is in the turbo's sweet spot, get a GOOD tune to always make sure the a/f ratio is on point, program the tune to activate limp mode as soon as any safety parameters are breached and you will have a long lasting reliable motor

Get boost, wideband, water/oil temp and oil pressure gauges

KratikosG37

05-13-2015 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerribleONE (Post 3196853)

6mt???

auto with badly needed shift kit.

KratikosG37

05-13-2015 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Driftomodachi (Post 3196925)

or just running it with a passive 6 PSI 80% of the time.....:icon18:

theDreamer

05-13-2015 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Driftomodachi (Post 3196925)

My one disagreement is to not build the motor. With how well our engines are holding up in the 400-600whp range you would be taking on more risk with a built motor that could open up a huge can of worms.
Now if they want to go the route of others on here for 700-900whp then yes get that sucker built!

KratikosG37

05-13-2015 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theDreamer (Post 3196933)

700-900whp is un-usable. 12PSI tune on stock all anyone can truly use. Haven't seen any 1/4 times worth talking about with 700-900whp.

theDreamer

05-13-2015 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KratikosG37 (Post 3196943)

700-900whp is un-usable. 12PSI tune on stock all anyone can truly use. Haven't seen any 1/4 times worth talking about with 700-900whp.

Considering how few 700+ builds there are it will be tough to get any of them to go to a 1/4 mile since at that power level it will take a ton of prep to hook.
Though Phunk is in a rebuild and I bet will be back at the 1/4 with over 700 going after the 1/4 mile record for the 370z. Cycy was at 620ish and set the record recently and they are hoping to return to push it even farther.

700 can be done at the 1/4 mile but you have to dial in the suspension/wheels/tires correctly where most people just go for that nice look with suspension & wheels.

Isamu

05-13-2015 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerribleONE (Post 3196770)

I have about 5k miles of hard driving on mine with no issues except that my face hurts from smiling so much.

:yum: boost

jwick

05-13-2015 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isamu (Post 3197223)

:yum: breast

Fixed it:tup:

Driftomodachi

05-14-2015 01:11 AM

Building a motor isn't a big deal as long as you break it in properly so that the piston rings seat properly. It will add to longevity

mcjsilverz

04-07-2016 12:21 PM

Database related Issue

Hello AK.:pics:

So far I'didnt experienced anything about usernames malfunction. Thank You
Very Much for letting me aware of things.

Thank You,
Michael Custodio:tiphat:

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