Nissan 370Z Forum

Nissan 370Z Forum (http://www.the370z.com/)
-   Forced Induction (http://www.the370z.com/forced-induction/)
-   -   GTM Performance Engineering stage 2 600hp supercharger kits line-up press release (http://www.the370z.com/forced-induction/42495-gtm-performance-engineering-stage-2-600hp-supercharger-kits-line-up-press-release.html)

gabe3d 09-13-2011 12:41 PM

I'm pretty sure the HP numbers here are not BHP, WHP or FWHP. They are more inline with the theoretical compressor capacity which can translate to HP. Which is not a bad way to rate a kit given that cars and condition can vary vastly, hence the reason why GTM listed a few different installation setups in their PR to give a taste of what it is capable of.

Looking at their prior StageI press release and the independent installations of it, I don't see any reasons to doubt their ratings.

FromG2Z 09-13-2011 12:50 PM

pardon me if this is a dumb question.... but going FI, whether it be stage 0, 1, or 2, on stock internals, tranny would undoubtedly shorten those parts' useable life right? Don't me wrong, I would LOVE to do this... LOVE it... but am just worried of how my engine (amongst other parts) will handle it. I'm sure it can handle it, but question is, for HOW LONG before something breaks??? :(

red6spd 09-13-2011 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FromG2Z (Post 1311104)
pardon me if this is a dumb question.... but going FI, whether it be stage 0, 1, or 2, on stock internals, tranny would undoubtedly shorten those parts' useable life right? Don't me wrong, I would LOVE to do this... LOVE it... but am just worried of how my engine (amongst other parts) will handle it. I'm sure it can handle it, but question is, for HOW LONG before something breaks??? :(



I think most guys will say it does have the potenial to shorten the life of the motor, but if the car is maintained well and has been tuned properly it will last a long time. I saw on the forum there was one guy with over 6k on his TT setup. I know thats not alot but its progress. Nowbody will know until stuff starts blowing up (or hopefully wont blow)

gabe3d 09-13-2011 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FromG2Z (Post 1311104)
pardon me if this is a dumb question.... but going FI, whether it be stage 0, 1, or 2, on stock internals, tranny would undoubtedly shorten those parts' useable life right? Don't me wrong, I would LOVE to do this... LOVE it... but am just worried of how my engine (amongst other parts) will handle it. I'm sure it can handle it, but question is, for HOW LONG before something breaks??? :(

This has been asked and GTM responded to this in the prior thread about this kit. Hope this helps. http://www.the370z.com/forced-induct...ml#post1128697

SAM@GTM 09-13-2011 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GUTCH (Post 1311023)
Correct me if I'm wrong...

GTM's TT press releases on here were originally in WHP. At the time their website also rated the TT kits in WHP.

The SC kits were always referred to in BHP, the website reflects this.

Now the website also shows the TT kits in BHP.

Hope that helps.


The rating of the horsepower output of our force induction systems whether a twin turbo or the supercharger set up is always in BHP (brake horsepower ) just like how Nissan rates the car on their web site, the 370z VQ3VHR engine is rated @ 333 HP . The reason why we rate it in hp, is that there are too many variables involved in wheel horsepower numbers: temperature, elevation, gas quality, dyno type (and dyno setup), and the car itself. Even on our turbo kits, the numbers you are seeing came from Garret web site turbo HP rating per their turbo compressor maps.

Hope this help

Sam

DarkZide 09-13-2011 01:14 PM

Sam,

Can the stage 2 kit be used, effectively and reliably, on a car with OUT the radiator upgrade? (I realize that "yes but the radiator is better", thats not what im looking for.) For a pleasure car that sees an occasional autocross, highway pull, or run through the mountains (US 129 "Dragon", etc).

Also, I don't see a price for the radiator upgrade?

Does the dual oil cooler kit work for the S/C and the engine oil?

Last question, with all these additional coolers is it required to cut holes in the front bumper (like the yellow car) to get enough airflow to the coolers? I'm not seeing how there is enough room near the radiator for an intercooler + 2 oil coolers.

SAM@GTM 09-13-2011 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkZide (Post 1311148)
Sam,

Can the stage 2 kit be used, effectively and reliably, on a car with OUT the radiator upgrade? (I realize that "yes but the radiator is better", thats not what im looking for.) For a pleasure car that sees an occasional autocross, highway pull, or run through the mountains (US 129 "Dragon", etc).

Also, I don't see a price for the radiator upgrade?

Does the dual oil cooler kit work for the S/C and the engine oil?

Last question, with all these additional coolers is it required to cut holes in the front bumper (like the yellow car) to get enough airflow to the coolers? I'm not seeing how there is enough room near the radiator for an intercooler + 2 oil coolers.

Yes it can, Note that every car we have done an inhouse install on , did not have a radiator. And all of them are running without any issues, is it a good idea to have ... yes but not a must have item.

Different story when it comes to A/T trans oil cooling, You must have cooler to protect you Transmission, There is no option there. otherwise you will be buying a new trans in no time .

The competition radiator /duel oil cooler set up will work with both SC and TT applications . Will have some pics very soon

Sam

SAM@GTM 09-13-2011 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe3d (Post 1311131)
This has been asked and GTM responded to this in the prior thread about this kit. Hope this helps. http://www.the370z.com/forced-induct...ml#post1128697

Thank you Gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAM@GTM (Post 1128697)
The answer is: Nobody can determine what is "safe" vs. "unsafe" horsepower or boost for the motor. The real risk factor is always there. It can be minimized, but never eliminated.

There are two risk factors that we have to look at. First one is the compressive strength of the rod once fatigued, which we don't know simply due to the shear number of cycles a rod sees (the rod would have to sit in a fatigue testing cell for a couple years 24/7 to come close to modeling the cycles a rod sees in real life). The only thing we can do is base it on real life experience. This means how many engines have snapped a rod due to installing forced induction.

Back in the days of the 350Z, this answer was simple: 400whp was the limit...anything more, and you would need a built motor. Another thing I'd like to throw in there (I will cover in more detail later) is that it has been established is that supercharger cars had a longer life expectancy at higher power levels than twin turbocharged cars. The reason is simple: turbo cars make more torque and do so abruptly thus shock loading the rods and snapping them like so many toothpicks. Fast forward to the VQ37VHR. We noticed that the rods are beefier and it's almost as if Nissan was compensating for the more powerful higher reving engine. Here is a pic below showing the transition from the VQ35DE to the VQ35HR to the VQ37VHR.


Arguably, we have installed more forced induction kits on the VQ HR and VHR motor than anyone in the world. So far, these engines have shown a great track record. I think the reason for this success is a combination of a few things that have been improved over the older DE engine.

1) Better Internal Engine Components
2) More stable Main bearing caps
3) Better Combustion chamber design
4) Better cooling system design (cylinder heads are the first to be cooled down vs. the old DE engine which had the block being cooled first)
5) Better Head Bolts
6) Better Dynamic Timing Control

Finally and most importantly is TUNING. This is the key ingredient to maximizing the longevity of a forced induction build on a stock engine. Tuning is an art as well as a science and requires intimate knowledge of the components of an engine management system and how they all relate to each other. For example, the Nissan ECU has a Temperature Compensation table to alter the Ignition Timing Table based on what the MAF sensor sees. So, if the MAF sensor sees cold air, the ECU will advance the timing. We located the MAF sensors where we did for precisely this reason, so that we can give the ECU a real time indication of how hot or cold the air entering the combustion chamber really is. This is a critical part of saving the engine. We all know that when supercharging, our biggest challenge is IAT (Intake Air Temperature). Since the supercharger is a compressor, the air is heated up substantially and it is important to have the proper ignition timing for hot air/fuel mixtures. Here's a sample of how a Temperature Compensation Table is supposed to look (note that the hotter the air gets, the more timing gets pulled):


Another thing to keep in mind when it comes to these engines, is that although it is an 11:1 compression...that's static compression. Dynamic compression takes into account volumetric efficiency, so that means that the effective compression ratio changes throughout the power band. I can tell you from experience that there is no way in hell that we could run the timing table we use on the VQ37VHR on an earlier VQ motor.

That all said, I want to give you a visual guide to torque curves to help you all understand why you can have more horsepower on a supercharged car than you can on a turbocharged car. The graphs below show different twin turbo setups compared to the 523hp supercharged setup. Pay special attention to the peak torque and how hard torque comes on. Understand that peak torque represents peak cylinder pressures. So the less peak torque you have, the less peak cylinder pressures your engine is seeing and the less stress there is on the motor overall. Although the supercharger engine has to work harder to make the same peak power as the twin turbo car, is still has less internal stress as the torque grows in a linear fashion.


If you ask me what is the single most important thing that anyone can do to keep their forced induction system running as long as possible without building their engine, is to focus on the tuning aspect of the build and eliminate any detonation. Detonation is an uncontrolled explosion rather than smooth expansion of burning gas. Eventually, detonation will beat up the engine bearings, leading to excessive clearance and spun bearings. Even if the rod or piston doesn't break, you will still have premature engine failure.

In closing, the things to watch out for are as follows:

Peak Torque
Detonation
Air Intake Temperature Compensation
Fuel Quality

IMO a well tuned 500 RWHP has a lot better chance surviving then a 400RWHP that is not tuned correctly

Sam


DarkZide 09-13-2011 01:34 PM

thanks sam

FromG2Z 09-13-2011 02:09 PM

thanks for input Sam/others. Good to learn.

SAM@GTM 09-13-2011 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travisjb (Post 1310964)
Apparently mine ships today...

Terrific press release, Sam!

Thanks Travis, When is the next track event with the SC system on the car ?

Sam

blackonorange 09-13-2011 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYBladeZ (Post 1310595)
The 03/04 Cobra ran 12.9 out of the box. There are stock Z's doing that on here. Considering the Cobra makes 390hp/390tq out of the box the real weakness is in its IRS. Even with the whipple you'll make the #'s but you'll never put it down. You would have to swap out to a 2004 Mustang GT solid axle to get consistent traction. Of course if you do so you lose the little handling capabilities the IRS gave the 03/04 cobra. Undoubtedly a great car, 4.6L cast iron factory S/C but it won't be able to run with an S/C stg2 Z. Now if you want to talk about price and bang for the buck that's kind of dumb considering you're talking about a car almost 10 years old, of course the aftermarket is dirt cheap even by mustang standards now. The 03/04 Cobra is heavy, handles poorly and has nothing going for it except that engine which has been eclipsed by the new 5.0. Time to move on man, I was on the verge of getting a Cobra before the Z but I can't live in the past. 17K if not paid in full, will lead to an upside down auto loan, which blows!

Thank you, lol I didn't wanna be the one to tell him that

DarkZide 09-13-2011 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackonorange (Post 1311264)
Thank you, lol I didn't wanna be the one to tell him that

He didn't tell me anything and you weren't going to either. Thinking the Z is superior to the Cobra when taking into the consideration of the time difference of their production and technologies at the time is fool hardy. Look at the Z you had in production at that time....a 350z that couldn't outrun a mustang GT from that same era.

shumby 09-13-2011 04:21 PM

Sam. will LTH's work on either the stage 1 or stage 2? Would like to put these on when I get my trans. As well would you have a base tune for this or should I get a local shop to tune after LTH install?

NYBladeZ 09-13-2011 04:25 PM

Last I checked a 350z on a road circuit will more than handle a Cobra. Based on your posts you have a history with built Stangs, as do I. I'm telling you for a fact, even with the IRS brace, the Cobra is only good for straight lines. Hell almost all Mustangs are until the new 5.0 which is in a category of its own.

You can point away the money argument all you want, its irrelevant, I could get a CRX throw in a built spoon engine run a 200 shot and blow a Cobra's doors off at far less than $17k. A turbo charged z34 or s/c z34 will take a Cobra even a whippled one in a straight light however throw a turn in there and a small margin of victory on a drag strip will turn into bus lengths on a road course. The Cobra is nose heavy, the suspension is crap why do you think the IRS never carried over and if your friend financed all or part of the $17k it means in the long run he pays more than $17k and got ripped off, end of story. Now stop making me trash the Cobra bc I love that car more than any mustang to ever see the road during my lifetime, I'm just not delusional.

NYBladeZ 09-13-2011 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shumby (Post 1311418)
Sam. will LTH's work on either the stage 1 or stage 2? Would like to put these on when I get my trans. As well would you have a base tune for this or should I get a local shop to tune after LTH install?

I have a bad feeling the LTH's will not help SC'd guys until VVEL is cracked, it just flows to damn well.

shumby 09-13-2011 04:36 PM

YA that is the issue I ran into with Sam and my install. But i thibnk dreamer is runnign LTH's on his SC.

NYBladeZ 09-13-2011 04:39 PM

Yeah I know he is, but I don't think he's making any real gains with them. Hopefully sam will shed some light. Initially sam said that LTH's wont work unless modified to fit the Stage 2.

blackonorange 09-13-2011 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkZide (Post 1311322)
He didn't tell me anything and you weren't going to either. Thinking the Z is superior to the Cobra when taking into the consideration of the time difference of their production and technologies at the time is fool hardy. Look at the Z you had in production at that time....a 350z that couldn't outrun a mustang GT from that same era.

I bought my z cause it has suede ( a form of suede I guess), cause it's got power seats, steering wheel controls . What I'm getting at is it has options, it's refined. That stuff costs money it's not just straight power it's a refined power. There's more to a car then just a 1/4 mile time so don't come in here saying we are all crazy for paying what we do. My Roomate has a 06 gto , I could argue with muscle heads all day

G37sHKS 09-13-2011 04:44 PM

Okay how come this thread went from Sc press release to Cobra vs 370Z? :shakes head::shakes head:

blackonorange 09-13-2011 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G37sHKS (Post 1311462)
Okay how come this thread went from Sc press release to Cobra vs 370Z? :shakes head::shakes head:

I know sorry.. Great work Sam looks great, I'm just not a fan of the tq numbers and I'm set on STs system but if I was going this route I would be ecstatic about this kit :)

NYBladeZ 09-13-2011 04:54 PM

Me too, I'm going to start banging and yelling "We need a VVEL Crack." Its the final piece of the puzzle.

Jamaica 09-13-2011 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shumby (Post 1311440)
YA that is the issue I ran into with Sam and my install. But i thibnk dreamer is runnign LTH's on his SC.

not anymore.

Do people really think Sam will modify the kit to fit LTH?

blackonorange 09-13-2011 04:56 PM

Is that the reason for the lower tq numbers?

NYBladeZ 09-13-2011 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamaica@UAMotorsports (Post 1311487)
not anymore.

Do people really think Sam will modify the kit to fit LTH?

I think the LTH's will need to be modified, either way in the long term you're asking for it if you continue to run stock cats. I'll wait on going f.i. until everything is said and done, problem is I'll be waiting for a while.

Jamaica 09-13-2011 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYBladeZ (Post 1311505)
I think the LTH's will need to be modified, either way in the long term you're asking for it if you continue to run stock cats. I'll wait on going f.i. until everything is said and done, problem is I'll be waiting for a while.

ya i believe the headers need to be modified. The question who is going to modify it?

John@Z1 09-13-2011 05:25 PM

Keep up the good work guys!

XwChriswX 09-13-2011 05:31 PM

Everyone keeps saying they won't work, but there is still no Proof as to such.

So no one needs to freak out about it unless we can see an install with them...

Jamaica 09-13-2011 05:36 PM

Honestly I don't think there will be proof until Someone tries it. I doubt GTM will test someone elses headers on there system. A simple phone call to GTM will answer your theory regarding the headers

XwChriswX 09-13-2011 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamaica@UAMotorsports (Post 1311549)
Honestly I don't think there will be proof until Someone tries it. I doubt GTM will test someone elses headers on there system. A simple phone call to GTM will answer your theory regarding the headers

So can this be understood as GTM Hasn't even tried it with the FI Headers? Claiming something doesn't work without even trying? I don't really think this is the case, but I was hoping for some info in the press release... Pulleys were shot down but not the headers. There has to be more to this story because I look at GTM as a respectable company... :ugh2:

Jamaica 09-13-2011 05:41 PM

I get your point..it's understood. But question is why would they test it? For what purpose?

XwChriswX 09-13-2011 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamaica@UAMotorsports (Post 1311561)
I get your point..it's understood. But question is why would they test it? For what purpose?

Because it's always been noted that with SC's LTH's work great... and since FI has sold several, and I'm sure a good % of those customers are interested in this kit...

Those two points would be something I'd look at once the kit is marketed. Someone is bound to ask.

Jamaica 09-13-2011 05:49 PM

I guess that's something Tony and Sam have to work out. Say what if GTM is making there own lth? There is no purpose to test out a brand that's not there's. Should be what's in the best interest of the company.

XwChriswX 09-13-2011 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamaica@UAMotorsports (Post 1311575)
I guess that's something Tony and Sam have to work out. Say what if GTM is making there own lth? There is no purpose to test out a brand that's not there's. Should be what's in the best interest of the company.

LoL This is exactly the point.

[Speculation] They're not even bothering to test another product, and then claiming it doesn't work while they can R&D their own 'magic headers that work' with the SC kits.[/Speculation]

I like to imagine GTM isn't that shady... but as of yet there is still no proof that they don't work. And no one has even contacted Tony to get a set (Which I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem getting at least a passenger side one made up) for the purpose of R&D to see IF any changes needed to be made to that side because it would help bump his own sales.

Jamaica 09-13-2011 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XwChriswX (Post 1311582)
LoL This is exactly the point.

[Speculation] They're not even bothering to test another product, and then claiming it doesn't work while they can R&D their own 'magic headers that work' with the SC kits.[/Speculation]

I like to imagine GTM isn't that shady... but as of yet there is still no proof that they don't work. And no one has even contacted Tony to get a set (Which I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem getting at least a passenger side one made up) for the purpose of R&D to see IF any changes needed to be made to that side because it would help bump his own sales.

I think the kit sales by itself. I'm just glad the kit is out.

XwChriswX 09-13-2011 06:26 PM

Ok, avoid the whole point... just adding to the shadyness lol

NYBladeZ 09-13-2011 07:38 PM

CRACK VVEL that will resolve the headers issue, otherwise whenever customers with the LTH's get their Stg2 kit the classifieds are going to be flooded with swap offers or low priced sales.

One_Quick_Z 09-13-2011 10:11 PM

^OR just get the Stage1 kit and keep the LTH's and wait for the VVEL tune to come out....


:)




DAN

kosstick 09-13-2011 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One_Quick_Z (Post 1312016)
^OR just get the Stage1 kit and keep the LTH's and wait for the VVEL tune to come out....


:)




DAN

Interesting thought lol

Seb@SZ 09-14-2011 12:36 AM

Excellent work Sam.


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