HH-O Hydromoving Technology
 

First of all, this thread is for information regarding member lorenz1955's innovation in "Brown's Gas" technology. His website http://www.hydromoving.com is in Italian and he has asked me to help with a translated text of his website main info page.

http://www.hydromoving.com/images/SL...?1359060004873

http://www.hydromoving.com/images/SLIDE/05.jpg

http://www.the370z.com/members/loren...lease-2012.jpg

Link to members gallery: http://www.the370z.com/members/loren...emissions.html


It is as follows:
(translation not perfect but feel free to go to the Italian version and retranslate if you like!)

Because the technology "HYDROMOVING" works ...

HHO technology, already known as "Brown's Gas", developed and patented by Lorenzo Errico, allows separation of the water molecules in a gas mixture of hydrogen and oxygen that quickly combusts at about 530° C with high pressure.

The already known method of producing “Brown’s Gas”, was significantly enhanced by Lorenzo with a new method of cell division, certified by the International Patent Office in Munich (Germany). Like all Class A inventions, it is devoid of any earlier trade marks worldwide. The system develops, a very low energy solution for separating of H2O molecules, and also greatly reduces electricity consumption, and consequently lower fuel consumption and emissions.

Supply of cars and Trucks in circulation, by scheduling the EURO 3 emission class EURO 6, with huge benefits for the environment, and dramatically reducing fuel expenses, of any kind it may be.

How to operate power turbines and engines with BIOGAS, certified reduction of TAR (byproduct of BIOGAS and natural GAS) eliminating all forms of CO, HC, NOx, SOx etc.

Lorenzo Errico has patented an innovative system to power the electrolysis of H2O (Pat N° TO2011A000404) and electronic fuel injection in Diesel and gasoline engine motors (Pat. N° TO2011A000400), according to the well-known principle "On-Demand" (HHO Gas production on-site at very low energy).

Thanks to these two patents, Lorenzo had the honour and the responsibility, first by the SOC. Marangoni, and later by Nissan Europe, to install and equip Hydromoving systems into two Nissan 370 Z, provided directly by the Japanese automaker known for system testing, certified by third party Entities, who left amazed with result, even the skeptics.

The results were obtained by following the Protocol tests imposed by Nissan Europe, power Tests prior to installing the system and consumption and emissions Tests before and after the installation of the system. In short, certified 30% less consumption and90 percent less emissions. The results are available in Pdf in the Test section.

Only the cogeneration market could be infinite certifying the consumption obtained in excess of 10%.

We have already achieved fuel consumption reduction from 8 to 15%. Imagine only deleting a filter, which would reduce the "particulate matter", as it is completely non-existent output, which would be in terms of saving money granted to the customer and end user "HYDROMOVING" technology, made available by Lorenzo.

The Hydromoving emissions from which water vapour emerges are: Hc-.007/CO 0-0, 013g/km

:facepalm:
Grabs a big tub of popcorn and sits back to watch the show

Sub

This is definitely not a 'hi performance mod' that many of us would jump on, but it is definitely something unique being done to our platform that the inventor deserves credit for! Let's be positive guys!
In europe, fuel consumption and emissions are much more critical than here, this is innovative stuff!

ignore the Lambo doors.... it's Italy! Home of the Lamborghini!

It's not unique (other than not being done on a 370Z) - snake oil salesmen have been promoting HHO/Brown's Gas for years. Like the little "turbos" that are inserted in the air inlet duct, HHO is pure hokum.
Yes, injecting H2 and O2 can have benefits. BUT, generating the gasses on the fly will result in a loss of power - you can't produce enough gas fast enough without large amount of power.
Google is your friend.

No, it's not the first system ever designed, HOWEVER it is one that has received good reviews and proven performance. The current draw is 18A (if you took the time to look thru his album) and the system seems viable. Whether you want to compare it to an electric car that can only drive 200km is a whole different issue. This is experimental technology that MAY have applications in the near future.

No need to be a negative Nancy!....

Agreed, this has been around SOOOOOO long, such bull, someone BOUGHT AND GAVE me a kit they had on their car because they thought it worked... Such bullshít I used it as an oil catch can... In fact, it was an oil catch can with different lines and electrical inputs

Dear Friend,
this project, which I have been entrusted is a Nissan project.
The development of the project began in April 2010 and completed in September 2011. My thoughts on the benefits of HHO, are described on my website. The HHO , as is proposed by various professors on Ebay and other sites is an outlet for the bottoms.
The Hydromoving system works because it is supported by a project (Patent) which greatly reduces the energy used for the electrolytic dissociation itself ...That's why it can work on the cars.
Ask sellers worldwide to mount from 6 to 10 drycell on a car and put it into motion ... If you will.
The Hydromoving System, only works because it absorbs energy from the ridiculous car, comparable Amps amount to a very sophisticated stereo.
The tests carried out at the International(FIAT) Centers of European approval, can show whether the car in order to reduce consumption and emissions, is not overloaded by excessive current absorption.
In the results section of the site there is in pdf, which certifies the results of NEUDC tests cycles run on the car in question.
To be continued...
Best Regards
lorenz

Lorenz, I am so lost... And by the way, just because something is patented doesn't make it true, or valid
I think these systems work because the drivers WANT them to work and drive extra slow...

If you give me the price of one of these systems sent to 90275, in CA, I will make you a bet. I'll post/send footage of 10 days of average driving before and after installation.

If it works, and by works I mean give me MORE than 10% better gas mileage, and DOESN'T lose me any horsepower, I will pay for the system and advocate this as the greatest thing to have ever hit the forum. And I'll buy 2 more systems right off the bat for the other 2 cars at home

If it DOESN'T work, you pay for the install/uninstall and dyno runs, deal? :tup:

Dear Friend,
The Hydromoving System, don't you sell as a regular KIT ..this is a prototype, is a real system with two ECU controllers, injector rail, tanks, pressure controls, filters ... etc..and you need a week to it install.
Real tests need to be done at the Dyno runs with NEUDC Cycle ...to European standards ...for the USA , maybe USEPA... i don't know.
Second point:
The tests to verify the proper functioning of the system ... were written in protocol testing imposed by Nissan ...Fuel consumption, emissions and power ...Before and after.Can you see in my website
In order to facilitate reading data files, I will try to translate into English the most interesting pdf parts of the site.
The road test, performed by various journalists, by prof of some Italian universities, showed that: In Highway cruise cctrl active 140 Km/Hr, full of petrol, placed the device, the result were 19.2 Km trails with just one liter of gasoline.
These tests, reading the on-board instrumentation, while the logs on the Dyno, noted a consumption of 16, 7 km/liter in suburban location.
This is the second prototype which instructed me Nissan, to test the feasibility of the system ...about 370 Z cars and GTR ... is not a system for sale ... though seeing all the money i spent on it, I would like to create a new prototype that costs little and within reach of all budgets, or search for an investor in the USA, that ... testing the effectiveness of the system with US EPA or other, if it works, would like to import it and build it in USA.
Attention Please...very important...
... This is the description of a Nissan Europe project to make it known to fans .... and according to Nissan claimed that the car must be perfectly, and not a screw had to be replaced. Ban the reprogramming of the injection unit.
To be continued...
Many Thanks at all
Lorenz

Just some commentary from a science nerd who's seen way too many such things in his life...

First, if you're unfamiliar with the terminology being thrown about here, this is a good starter on what's basically going on here and that it's generally scientifically fraudulent:

Oxyhydrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The most relevant sentence from there is: However, it's pretty hard to shut down a project like this based on facts. It wouldn't surprise me if he could build an HHO-based system that did increase the MPG of a car very slightly in some standardized test. There are a lot of ridiculous inefficiencies in the design of a modern combustion-powered car that are difficult to eliminate. The most obvious is all the waste heat. Perhaps the guy is picking up his efficiency gains by using the waste heat pouring off the engine/exhaust to help reduce the electrical power needs for electrolysis? There's been legitimate research on that topic in the recent past, but the last one I heard about required temps in the 850C range to use heat to help power the splitting of water, so that one wasn't really appropriate for a car engine. Most legitimate research on any kind of waste-heat recovery system tends to report more like a 5-10% net gain in fuel efficiency, and almost none of those efforts involve using water electrolysis as a step in the process.

Just food for thought. My suspicions based on how these things usually turn out is that (1) He's exploiting an inefficiency like waste heat more than anything else, which is legitimate but doesn't legitimize the electrolysis part, (2) He probably can show a small gain on some test, but (3) It won't ever be a practical/viable system for real world use on a large scale, due to the cost of the technology, cost of some catalyst or wear-item component of the system, inability to provide enough gains to offset its own weight and manufacturing costs, etc.

But who knows, I could be wrong. You never know when the next seemingly-snake-oil guy has finally stumbled on something useful.

Maybe I was off the mark thinking that this forum would support someone spending a lot of their own money and time researching and building an alternative system to improve the engine of our cars.... :icon14:
I didn't expect everyone to run out and buy a system, let alone be fanboi's, but I did expect that there would be support for someone thinking outside the box and having the stones and conviction to try and build it. It's people like Lorenz that help move our technology forward, either by discovering something incredible or proving it is non-viable. Either way, it's good for our future. :twocents:

I did my best to bend over backwards to give the guy some credit above, but that's as far as I can go. The fact is that this does have the very distinct smell of pseudo-science snake-oil, and none of the list of Nissan and/or EU involvements really does much to change that. I fully support people thinking outside the box and moving technology forward. However, historically it's not people like Lorenz that help move our technology forward. Mostly what they do is defraud investors and fail to provide the world with any useful new science or engineering.

If you really want to go down the road of saying I'm being unfair, then perhaps I need to convince you a little more that I'm not:

Water4Gas HHO and Brown's gas are frauds and scams
Water powered car - RationalWiki
HHO is a scam: water for fuel doesn’t work, don’t fall for it. « Random musings from a heavily caffeinated computer business owner

I'm sure you can google more results for yourself. This sort of thing generally falls under the same category as the crackpots that pop up every few years pumping for investors in the latest "cold fusion" or perpetual motion machine scam. They defraud investors that might have used the money to invest in something actually useful.

Dude, it's complete ********. It's not good for anybody except the salesman. The only thing you're helping promote is misinformation. There would be support if the product weren't snake oil. Let me guess, it requires a turbonator and one of those magnets you put on your fuel line in order to work, right? Somehow I doubt Nissan just randomly called some guy in Italy to help them develop something like this. A company with millions of dollars in R&D budgets has to outsource development to some random dude in Italy? If he really had a solution, Nissan would put him on the payroll and release the details themselves.

Dear friends, I wanted to ask you to rest assured, nobody wants to come to smoke in the USA sell ... have enough snake oil to the USA, exactly those written by WSTAR, I so far I have received so much from Nissan Europe, Universities and I'm glad for this ...
The forum is helpful to share with you a project ..., having opinions, observations, I don't absolutely need investors, perhaps you misunderstood my thought ...
Best Regards
Lorenz

So what makes your system so different from the scams wstar mentioned above? Those were tested, and actually reduced gas mileage slightly. In fact, companies with similar systems in the US have been sued for being misleading scam artists taking advantage of people. I'd love for this to be legit, but you have to understand that you're not the first to try this, and none of the others have been on the level.

I Googled "Nissan Hydromoving" and could find nothing from Nissan announcing support for this project or any results. All I found was vaguely-worded expositions by yourself that really say nothing or "articles" (rehashed press releases) in such highly-esteemed publications as The Sun. Granted, I didn't look very deep, if I missed anything, please let me know.

I haven't bothered to research the patents - all evidence (and lack of) points to this being a scam and I have better things to do. If you have links to independent research (or even informed opinions) verifying your theories and/or test results, please provide them. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. The ramblings of "some guy on the Intertubes" is not particularly extraordinary.

Dear WSTAR,
if you go to click on HHO KITS for my site, you can read in English what I think of European and USA vendors of HHO Kit.
I was the first in Italy from 2005 that has always maintained that the HHO kit is a Scam.
The project that I built for Nissan is an implant .... and not a kit ... I know perfectly well the laws of physics, so the reference to Wikipedia I know him ...I'm not a mechanic, but an engineer graduated in 1975 in electrical engineering ... when colleges were for students who wanted to study with passion.
In relation to my Patent, the Patent Centre Munchen international
replied that:
3.2 This feature allows to carry out water electrolysis consuming less energy.
3.3 The problem to be solved by the present invention may be regarded as providing a system for carryng out an electrolysis having improved energetic efficiency.
3.4 The solution to this problem proposed in claim 8 Theirof the present application is considered as involving an inventive step for the following reasons :there is neither a disclosure nor a hint in the available prior art to add a control unit as describedin claim 11 to the system of document D2.
An Electrolytic cell having one cathode and more than one anode is known ( see document D3), but it is not suitable for producing oxy-hydrogen gas,since oxygen is not produced in this cell. The skilled person would therefore not be encouraged to combine the teaching of D3 with the cell disclosed by D2.
4.0 Claims 2-10 are dependent on one or more independent claims whose subject-matter is considered as being new and inventive, as discussed above, and as such said dependent claims also meet the requirements of novelty and inventive step.
This is all
Best Regards
Lorenz

I am just as skeptical as the next guy when exorbitant claims are made. But I am also willing to let someone else spend their time money and research into proving themselves right (or wrong!). In any case, I see this as an interesting approach to reduced emissions and better fuel economy. The fact that he is using a 370Z just makes it that much more interesting and, probably, better for PR!
This technology reminds me a lot of the Ballard fuel cell as well. Not efficient enough to meet daily use but massive research is being put into it and progress is being made...

Fuel Cell Technology | Fuel Cells | Clean Energy Solutions | Ballard Power Systems

Oh, I hope he's legit. If someone could make this technology work, it would be great. This guy has my BS meter pegged, though.

It may be able to improve emissions, but this HHO-gives-better-performance/economy horse has been proven to be dead already. You can't get more out of a system than you put in. It takes a certain amount of energy to break water apart - unless lorenz1955 has discovered some quantum effect that allows one to break water apart with less than normal energy AND managed to scale it up to real world levels, he's blowing smoke up our collective a$$.

Exactly. If you were Nissan and you were funding/supporting a project like this, would you keep quiet about it? Or would you issue press releases announcing your funding of the project and more releases as progress was made? If I am wrong and Nissan has made these announcements, please let me know.

Apples and oranges.

I believe this is what he is trying to do, why else would you spend all your time and money building a system that is known to be inefficient?

I can see Nissan not making a big noise about a system that obviously has it's share of detractors. If I were Nissan, I would support the research (why not, no real cost to them) and wait to exploit the results if proven viable. Either way they win by not having to do the research themselves and piggybacking on someone elses success if it works. If it fails, no harm done to them or their reputation.


I agree they are different technologies, just that they seem to generate the same amount of skeptics and disbelievers etc. I remember when they started the project, it was in no way viable. Now they are approaching a viable technology though ongoing research and development.


I am not surprised by all the negative comments, but even so, I am encouraged by the discussion it is creating! :tiphat:

Skepticism aside, I like that this project did not end up as vaporware. I remember seeing this thread and video a couple years ago, and I'm happy to see the project is still alive and kicking.

Offtopic, is 10% Ethanol killing our MPG? Seeing that gas prices aren't getting any lower and that we're emptying our tanks quicker with 10% Ethanol isn't saving us any money. Plus, corn/soy Ethanol is driving up everything, right?

Hi,
the journalistic service of The Sun, is relative to the first Nissan Z-Hydro Marangoni, equipped with a reduced system with four drycell.
The Nissan project, you won't be able to find anything on the Web ... is a secretive project .... an experiment to determine the feasibility of a Hydro system on a sports car as the Nissan 370 Z.
Best regards
lorenz

So secretive you put it on the Internet?

:roflpuke2:

Yeah, ethanol burn quicker, bumps your octane numbers a bit, but it also ruins the whole system by not burning clean... Contrary to popular belief (even Al Gore said they F'd up, lol)


Back on topic!
OP, I think you're trolling us and/or I think this is BS, I think to make this work you'd have to put hundreds of thousands of dollars into this system.
It's like the KERS debate that just went on a month ago... And I think that's the only way you could make H2 for "free" using heat won't give you enough energy, or you cannot control the energy in such a way that this is viable...
So I don't know what other generator style thing you're using to get the energy... Lastly, I bet all the weight you'll be putting to make this thing work will make your "gains" meaningless


Again, want to come to CA to make this work, I'll give you my car for a month to play with. Can do anything in a month? You pay for the uninstall price...
If it works, I'll pay for everything and I'll need 2 more systems

Hi,
when you have time studies the "consistency of water Domain ".
thank you
lorenz

Results from Google:
No results found for "consistency of water Domain "
No results found for "consistency of water Domain".


Please provide a few links to get me started.

You'll never find any real info. This guy's full of ****. I'll give ten-to-one odds that, in addition to making magic engine parts, he can also get you in touch with a real Nigerian prince that needs a little help moving some funds around.

I have no hopes of getting any useful links or other info, but, who knows, maybe this guy has found the right catalyst or the magic frequency. Yeah, right. ;)

And you have to love the secrecy thing. "Psst! Hey, buddy! It's a secret ... but check out this web page. Tell all your friends." :nutswinger:

That's the funniest part. Other than the fact that in my head he sounds like Mario.

If he really had any association with any arm of Nissan he'd have signed an NDA about every part of this, and lawyers would have descended on this thread instantly and forced the admins to take it down. Not to mention that he'd have won a ******* Nobel Prize if he managed to pull this off.

My guess is that they would have shut his site down long before it got to us.

It's painfully obvious that you just don't understand the situation. Big Oil/Conventional Scientists/& al are squashing his research and keeping it from the general public. :p

Dear friend,
this is an abstract :
Oxhydroelectric Effect: Electricity from Water by Twin Electrodes
For more informations do not esitate.
lorenz

Are you kidding? They'd love it. Nissan would put it into cars and then sell carbon credits for being "green" back to Big Oil. Then Big Oil would slow refinery production to drive the cost of gas back up to the pre-magic water engine era. Their profits would be the same, but then they'd use the carbon credits for the tax break, and pocket the difference. Some of the profits would go to our politicians to make sure that a replacement for gasoline-powered transportation never sees the light of day. Thus squashing brave technological pioneers like Lorenzo. In a way, by getting this info out just before the black helicopters showed up over his villa, he's a hero. He could be the first domino to fall in the path of the development of the 1000mpg flying Jetsons cars we were told we'd have by now.

Can you direct us to somewhere that doesn't want money for the full document? I'll be damned if I'm going pay to verify your information. The burden of proof is on you as the vendor.

Dear Bull,
it seems to me that you're exaggerating ... much ... If we are to talk about technique and you need to learn ... let's move on ...If you are not interested in learning ... well ...try at least to behave by educated person.
If you need 100 dollars for petrol in your Z 370 ... well let me a whistle.
Thank you
lorenz

Maybe I'm just dense, but what has "electricity extraction" got to do with producing H2+02? I couldn't find the complete text (for free, anyway), but it appears that OE has more to do with measuring water quality than electrolyzing water. But I don't have much to go on.

As far as I can tell, that one paper is the only one that mentions OE. But if you have more info, then please link to it.

Please, prove me wrong. I will happily make a public apology if you get cars running around showing real-world results at the end-user level. I want to be wrong. If what you're doing actually works, it is a HUGE breakthrough. At this point though, you have no more credibility than any of the other people that have brought something like this to market and they have been thoroughly debunked by now.

Dear,
I'm not anybody's supplier.
Are not obligated to provide you a test run of the system.
If not enough published or do not know read charts well is your problem not mine ... learn more.
Learn Italian as I am learning English.
Thanks
lorenz

Took the words right out of my mouth.


lorenz1955: I will also eat crow if you will just show us independent (and reliable) replication/verification of your results. At this point, I might even settle for a reasonable hypothesis of how you can get more energy out of the system than you put in. So far, you have provided neither.
Put up or shut up.